Over on the A Voice for Men forums – yes, they have forums – one Man Going His Own Way spells out exactly what he means by His Own Way. Here’s misterbill:
For me, MGTOW has three major components:
1. Refusal to cohabitate with a woman
2. Avoidance of fatherhood like the plague
3. Avoidance of being alone in a room with a strange woman (for fear of false accusations)
These are the core elements, IMO.
I’m not celibate, I get sexual satisfaction from several call-girls that I’ve built good rapport with over a few years. I’ll visit one of these women whenever I feel like it, usually once a month or so.
I have what I would describe as a female companion who others would describe as my girlfriend. We don’t have sex, not because I’m not attracted to her, but because my fear of possibly getting her pregnant petrifies me beyond belief. So we hang out 2 days a week and have very nice times together, going on about 5 years. She understands my beliefs and that we will never live together and that I don’t believe in the myth of love.
So I’m MGHOW, but not without women.
I’m 41 and fairly wealthy. In my 20s and through to of my early 30s ( although I wasn’t a PUA) I studied game theory and in combination with other aspects of my life, I had no trouble getting laid. Then a woman made a false accusation against me (and was further slandered by another), and I began to wake up to the perils of having sex with (and interacting with) strange women. The risks outweighed the benefits, and I turned to going my own way.
I travel on business frequently and the one exception to my rule with being alone with strange women is the easy pickings while traveling. There is a rule amongst many women that if you’re 500 miles away from home, it’s not cheating. I see this a lot with many married women. Gents, her vows mean NOTHING once she gets on a plane without you. Although I wouldn’t allow any of these women into my home, I accept the risk when I’m traveling. And there is always a risk of running into a psycho who is ready to explode.
I don’t really have any jokes here. But I will note that his story doesn’t make a lick of sense; I find it literally unbelievable.
He’s so paranoid about women because of a “false accusation” leveled against him back when he pursued women using “game theory” that he literally refuses to be in the same room with “strange women” – or even interact with them. Yet when he’s traveling he suggests he routinely has sex with “strange” married women. Huh? These women could still get pregnant; these women could still make accusations, false or otherwise, against him. Does he feel safe because he can skip town in a hurry to avoid the possible consequences of his actions?
He’s (allegedly) been involved in a 2-day-a-week relationship, for five years, with a woman he’s sexually attracted to. But he refuses to have sex with her because he’s terrified of getting her pregnant. If he’s that worried about getting her pregnant, and generally wants to “avoid … fatherhood like the plague,” why doesn’t he get a vasectomy? If, after he sleeps with a married woman in a strange city, she gets pregnant with his child, does he simply assume she’ll never be able to track him down?
I’m going to assume that most if not all of what misterbill is saying here is bullshit. But if he does indeed live his life in way that even vaguely resembles how he says he does, it’s a rather sad and strange and paranoid way to live.
Nepenthe is the fastest comment in the West.
I know that when someone names their collective after the thing that people get dumped in if they lose a game while participating in children’s TV shows that always leads me to take them more seriously.
I didn’t realize that harassment campaigns were considered humanism now. Or are they science?
Excuse me? I’m not aware of any instances of harassment Myers and Watson; certainly, I know that there’s a bit of a friendly rivalry between the Pit and Freethought Blogs. Individual members may have acted poorly; I wouldn’t know as I don’t concern myself with pedantic squabbling. But I do believe the Pit to be an exemplary collective of individuals working toward admirable goals. And Ms. Smith deserves much credit for providing the impetus on her blog (the Slyme Pit began as a series of threads on ERV called the “Periodic Table of Swearing”).
Of course Otis wouldn’t be to blame for being on moderation, it’s always someone else’s fault. Stay classy, Otis.
In much better news, I do NOT have breast cancer.
Falconer, I got my hands on my holsters because I have a chemistry exam tomorrow and I really, really, really would rather do anything but study.
hellkell – I’m glad to hear that!
As to Otis et al, yeah, isn’t it something how the Super Powerful Men Who Do Pull Ups and are totally stronger and smarter than barely-human women …
… are at the same time never responsible for anything that happens?
She’s also the founder of the “Slyme Pit”, a loose collective of atheists working toward mutual goals of reason, science and humanism.
For those not familiar with the online atheist community, this is a hilarious in-joke, as the Slyme Pit is actually a loose collective of atheists working toward the mutual goal of stalking Rebecca Watson.
I’m joking, of course. They also stalk several other atheist bloggers, all of whom coincidentally happen to be women and/or feminists.
Good one, Steele!
Steele doesn’t squabble. That’s too pedantic for him. Steele, you come here non-stop just to squabble ad nauseum and always lose. WTF is wrong with you? Words have meaning. Do you ever proof read what you write?
Proofreading is MISANDRY!
I’m sorry? I am not aware of any egregious harassment; there is certainly a rivalry between the similar collective “Freethought Blogs”, where PZ Myers posts. Certainly, some members on both sides may have acted poorly; I freely grant that as I don’t follow inter-atheist squabbles. But this does not reflect on the larger institution and your transparent attempts to do so are laughable.
Abbie Smith, the founder, is herself a woman. Prominent atheist voices like Justin Vacula post there regularly. It is a noble enterprise.
@hellkell, So glad to hear that.
I’d like to point out that game theory is a field of mathematics: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory
I can verify that it cannot possibly get you laid. Because it’s math.
Thank you, Cloudiah and Kittehs.
Steele, you’re excused.
Steele, the post Watson JUST PUBLISHED is about the campaign of harassment she’s enduring right now. Jesus wept, can you read? Are you comments coming through Babelfish? That would explain a lot.
@hellkell – yay?
Whatever. All I know is Steele’s, um, writing style, hurts my ears. I think I’ll read a few pages from Neil Gaiman’s “Fragile Things” (that’s here on my desk) to regain my faith in wording and grammar.
“Excuse me? I’m not aware.” -Steele
I like how I ask Otis to do logic and he runs away.
Men are too superior for logic.
Steele said:
On a lark, I went over to the slymepit just to get a sample of what they do. Having already been aware of Abbie Smith’s “monument,” i.e. the founding thread of the slymepit in which such elevated nomenclature as “Rebecca Twatson” was first coined, I was not expecting great or noble things. I was not disappointed by the existence of their pet project, the “Phawrongula” wiki, and this article:
http://phawrongula.wikia.com/wiki/The_Hagiography_of_%22Amina_A.%22
According to the slymepit’s exacting standards, PZ is a “sham and a fraud” for not correcting the original post about Amina A., but apparently the wiki’s maintainers have no problem with assuming that you’ll find PZ’s later post.
To read just that article, you would believe that PZ promoted the “Amina A.” story as true before it broke, and afterwards completely ignored it. As the article says, “Myers is exposed as a sham and fraud from every perspective. Not one retraction or correction is to be found.” (By the way, the word “Myers” in that sentence links to this image: http://phawrongula.wikia.com/wiki/File:Myers-nixon.jpg . Very classy.) What the article doesn’t tell you is that PZ subsequently took the perpetrator of the deceptive Amina A. story to task on his blog, from what I can tell on the very day it broke:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/06/12/screw-you-tom-macmaster/
Their casual hypocrisy and petty nitpicking aside, I have a bigger problem with their treatment of the subject. Take this mangled pair of sentences referring to PZ:
Keep in mind what we’re talking about here: violence against lgbt people and the specter of corrective rape against lesbian women.
Personal agenda? How is that a personal agenda, slymepitters? Fuck you fucking fucksticks. We did not need the story of Amina A. to know this shit happens. This was not “Exhibit A,” as Josh Rosenau implied in his article on the topic, referring to Chris Mooney’s use of another fraudulent story as “Exhibit A” in his own campaigns. If the Amina A. story had been real, it would be fucking exhibit X, where X is a ridiculous fucking number.
Dismissing real social justice concerns, issues of life and death for many people, as simply personal agendas as “puritanism” is not an aberration, it is the modus operandi of the slymepitters. They are not noble, they are fucking scumbags.
Sigh, comment formatting. The second paragraph, beginning with “According to the slymepit’s exacting standards,” was supposed to go after the third paragraph, and only makes sense read after it.
Fuckers. Thanks for diving in, Tulgey. Do you need a firehose to cleanse? Here you go:
@Steele said: “Abbie Smith, the founder, is herself a woman. Prominent atheist voices like Justin Vacula post there regularly. It is a noble enterprise.”
Omigosh, Justin who resigned his position from the Secular Coalition for Pennsylvania only after a petition was started publicly illustrating his unsuitability for such a role. Gosh, I’m so sorry I choose to miss out on the welcoming crowd there. It certainly is noble!
LOL.
This guy sounds awful. I hate men who tell me that they are afraid of false allegations. I once JUST met a man and when I put out my hand for a handshake (professional setting) he said no. I took my hand back and was done. Then he went on a tirade about how he couldn’t touch me out of fear of sexual harassment suits. I just kinda stood there and smiled until he was done. Then fled.
What is wrong with these men? Do they really think women walk around planning their downfall?
That sounds about right – someone who pretends not to know (I find it hard to believe they really don’t) the difference between appropriate things like shaking hands – especially when a hand is offered! – and inappropriate touching. I mean, how difficult is it in a work situation to shake hands where required and for the rest of the time, keep your hands to yourself? Would he be all handsy with a man? Bet he wouldn’t.
Hope you didn’t have to have any further contact with that jackass.
I know I shouldn’t bother, but:
You can leave this out.
Egregious means especially bad. If you are trying to emphasise something it’s a handy word to use. If you are trying to downplay something, it makes you look weasily. The implication is that you are aware of harassment, but you think you can get around it by only looking at that subset of harassment that is ‘egregious’. I don’t think that’s what you were going for. Try “I am not aware of any harassment”.
(I can’t speak for everyone, I am prepared to believe any statement you make that begins with the phrase “I am not aware”. Literally any statement.)
My understanding is that Freethought Blogs is a website incorporating several blogs, and the slymepit is not. This means that they are dissimilar in an obvious and crucial way. Also, it might be better to mention both sides if you’re using the proposition ‘between’. Consider “I was between a hard place”. Try “..between the slyme pit and “Freethought Blogs””.
Is it certainly the case that people have acted poorly, or is it that they may have acted poorly? One or the other, please.
If you don’t follow a ‘squabble’, your opinions about either or both sides of said ‘squabble’ tend not to carry much weight, ‘freely granted’ or not.
The larger institution of what? Transparent attempts to do what? To ‘reflect’? How does a person transparently reflect?
Try: “This does not reflect on the larger institution of [name institution here] and your transparent attempts to imply that it does are laughable.”
In previous posts you already said that Abbie Smith founded the slyme pit, and explicitly mentioned that she’s a woman. It’s starting to look like you’re belabouring the point.
If you are a medieval knight – or possibly a Klingon – then this is excellent rhetoric. If you are a human being of the twenty-first century, may I suggest “It’s pretty good, you should check it out”? This serves the same rhetorical purpose, without making you look quite so much like a tool.
cloudiah, one word can describe fire hose soccer: WHARRGARBL–!
This is just Atheism+ hippie-punching.
If you don’t “follow inter-atheist squabbles” you don’t have a standing to “grant” anything about behavior.
Feck off.
Wow, far too late to that particular party.
Naturally, the only interactions a woman can have with a man are either “let him put his pee pee in me” or “falsely accuse him of rape and then steal all his penis money for my scented fucking candles”. Duh.
Vile Disgusting Vile.
Excuse me WHORES my sexy girlfriend yes my man is awesome and I’m using his handle because I don’t have one Agenda 21 BOYS RULE GURLZ DROOL Ron Fucking Paul.
“With the right amount of cash, anyone can be considered attractive.”
Exactly, have you ever heard of prostitutes, honest one’s? Lol 🙂
Painfully stupid.
I’ve heard of both prostitutes AND the proper way to use an apostrophe.
We’ve also heard of sarcasm and the ability to read following posts.
I’m late to the party, but Steele, holy shitballs, what the hell is wrong with you?
Did we all not sufficiently smack you down for this exact kind of disingenuous bullshit a mere two weeks ago?
Listen very carefully. It is not possible to have a valid opinion on a topic you don’t know about. Do you understand? When you don’t know what you’re talking about, your opinion Does Not Count.
So the next time you want to argue like, “Oh, I’m not sure of all of the boring details, but here’s my opinion anyway” you need to Stop. Reflect. Shut the fuck up. And listen. SRSL Steele. And maybe you’ll fucking learn something.
(I blame
the Patriarchya sense of entitlement so massive it beggars belief.)Steele can’t be for real. Oh, I’m sure he believes a lot of what he posts, but the “friendly rivalry” stuff? Pure trolling on his part. It’s gotta be.
David: Yeah, the “friendly rivalry” line is just about too absurd to be for real. Though on the flipside, Sir Bodsworth’s beautiful take-down of his tone above highlights Steele’s love of pomposity (‘excellent rhetoric for a medieval knight’, I snerked). If I was in that mode, “friendly rivalry” would invoke something like an Oxbridge rowing competition or a game of chess between old chums over a snifter of port. Perhaps that was the affectation Steele was going for? If so I can only say, “Steele, you’re a fucken wanker” (to be read in my finest bogan accent).
Explain, please?
Steele is definitely trolling because he derives some odd sort of satisfaction from imagining that he’s making feminists look bad, but he may well be dumb enough to believe some of the stuff he’s saying too. Never underestimate just how stupid people can sometimes be.
Bogan is what middle-class people call poor people
Cassandra: What magpie said. And yeah, it can be a pretty classist to use the word bogan if it’s not done in the right context.
So this is an Aussie/Kiwi thing? Funny given the conversation the other day about how similar Aussie&Kiwi English is to British English.
Nerdypants is right, “Steele, you’re a ‘k’n’ wanka” has to be said in a broad accent, to get the real feeling across. 🙂
I’m just a bit crook at the moment.
In NZ, bogan isn’t a general term for poor people. It’s used to refer to white people who wear heavy metal t-shirts, mullets, have an old Ford or Holden up on blocks. I don’t think it’s quite equivalent to white trailer trash.
I found some links to explain the term from the NZ perspective.
A Kiwi dictionary interpretation: http://www.kiwianarama.co.nz/bogans/
I forgot the car thing was about V8s and not just Ford vs. Holden: http://www.bogan.co.nz/
And one kiwi got did his PhD on bogans (but he doesn’t look like one, not sure why he dressed this way for the accompanying photo); http://www.stuff.co.nz/oddstuff/7129266/A-bogan-by-any-other-name
They used to call us Westies when I was a teenager, but you don’t hear that much any more. Would you say Bogan is the same thing? I still reckon it’s middle class vs the rest, in attitude if not money.
Cassandra: Yes, I’m Australian. The bogan accent thing: when I was younger, in the suburbs I grew up in, we all had this somehow looser way of pronouncing our words. I think it’s a working-class thing? Although people in rural areas sound a bit the same, if a bit more mumbly. Though lately (or perhaps I only just noticed it as I grew older) the word “bogan” has taken on a bit of a mean edge, perhaps a bit like how “redneck” gets used in the US. We hear about it in politics, when the left-wing gets their classism on, about bogans voting for One Nation (a racist right wing minority party from while back) and that kind of thing. I wonder if our culture is loosing its we-were-all-convicts egalitarian mythos. But still I feel there is something very satisfying about that accent when I’m pissed off, there’s nothing like reverting to form with a big rant full of four-letter words 🙂 I like to hear a working-class accent take a pompous dick down a notch or two, it’s a bit hard to explain, but that’s the feeling Steele’s pretensions invoked in me – don’t pretend to be what you’re not you fuck’n wanka – given that for all his pretensions of being a sophisticated rhetorician, the logic behind his arguments betrays what a dumbshit he really is.
I thought Westies was peculiar to Sydney? As in, the outer suburbs of Sydney are in the west. I don’t know, I grew up in Melbourne.
Aren’t westies Melbourne as well? Had an idea Ferret & Michelle were called westies. I’m a NSW bushie, but it was used here too.
@ nerdypants
I get it. The equivalent for me would be to dress down a really classist English person in a broad Glaswegian accent.
Magpie: Could well be, I don’t know. I don’t remember it in Melbourne, but back then I was busy riding my trike and catching insects.
Cassandra: Sorry I didn’t realise you were English. Yes, that’s exactly it.