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abortion misogyny politics

Indiana Republican Senate candidate Richard Mourdock: When rape victims get pregnant, “it is something that God intended to happen.”

Here’s Indiana Republican Senate candidate Richard Mourdock, who apparently has some sort of direct line to God, talking about abortion and rape at a debate earlier tonight:

I just struggled with it myself for a long time but I came to realize: Life is that gift from God that I think even if life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen.

Mourdock has now put out a statement trying to sort of retract what he said, and a spokeswoman for Romney, who has endorsed Mourdock, has distanced the presidential contender from Mourdock’s remarks.  See Politico for more details.

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The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

@dirtyhippiefeet – love that idea of Mary being the sixth or so girl the angel asked! Because as the story stands, well, her saying “I consent with all my heart” doesn’t mean a whole lot given it’s an angel and God who’re telling her they want her to be pregnant. Free will? Yeah, right. Massive power imbalance, anyone? I mean, saying NO to a God with a track record of drowning the whole world, demanding prisoners of war be slaughtered, killing an entire country’s first-born childern, etc, isn’t something I’d expect of anyone, let alone a young teen.

Unless of course she was a teen with ATTITUDE. Now there’s a scenario worth picturing … Mary telling God what a useless old fart he is and to piss off.

Preferably in a Lunnon accent, innit.

pecunium
8 years ago

The Kitteh’s: But there is also Abraham bargaining with God about Sodom and Gomorrah.

Diogenes The Cynic
Diogenes The Cynic
8 years ago

@pecunium

Abortion is specifically mentioned in the Talmud. The subject is adressed without ambiguity. As are c-sections, and other things. If G-d made a world that would advance, why wouldn’t he have given us the tools to address those issues?

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
8 years ago

There are many things I love about living in Indiana. This guy sure as hell isn’t one of them.

I feel your pain here, lauralot. That’s how I feel about Akin running for Senate in MIssouri. But in the ballot booth, we Missourians will have a way to shut that whole thing down.

Oh, and the Lord says it’s his will for everyone in Indiana to vote for Donnelly. It’s a good thing there is an all powerful, omniscient deity that always agrees with me!

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
8 years ago

By the way, I think a great way to entertain kids in public is to bring along handheld games like Leapster or Nintendo gameboy. They’re easy to carry and you can bring along extra games. However, when you do that, there will be the self righteous scolds who will gripe about “parents nowadays using electronic gadgets as babysitters”.

Sara
Sara
8 years ago

As a parent of 2 small children, I must say I have spent a great deal of time agonizing over the amount of noise they make in public. I still do actually. I want to stab my eyeballs with a fork when my kids are screaming, tantruming, or otherwise being ridiculously loud in public. There have been many times when I know everyone in the restaurant, airplane, waiting room hated me. What I’ve gained through all this is an incredible empathy for parents with loud out of control children in public. You can generally tell the difference between the parents like me (cringing in horror from embarrassment) and the ones that are oblivious.

freitag235
freitag235
8 years ago
Aeryl
Aeryl
8 years ago

Author Sara Douglass did a fantasy/alternate history series that does away with any notion of consent for Mary, and got rid of God, and instead just has angels running around raping women everywhere, and then forcing their illegimate children into Hell, It was an interesting(if horrifying) spin on the story, and explained the basis for the blatant woman hating in Medieval Christianity(the Angels despised women, and victim blamed them for their rapes).

But yeah, Jesus was the result of a gang rape by angels, as per this story, specifically created to start a religion worshiping a false God that stood in place of the raping angels. Instead though, Jesus found the love of humans to be divine, and had to be crucified before he ruined everything for the raping angels.

This guy belongs in that book.

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
8 years ago

On the Mary giving consent idea, there is an example from the old testament where god controls a person’s thinking: he harden’s pharoah’s heart against letting the Israelites leave Egypt, thereby directly causing the Egyptians to have yet more plagues occur – which is psychopathic. Therefore, even if Mary “consented”, how could one tell that it was true consent and not god making her consent?

On the children in public point, I have given up going to the movies now. It was bad enough when 8pm or 10pm sessions had people with babies, but then they started letting toddlers in too. Although, that said, adults talking loudly about the plot or not having their damn phones turned off is at least as annoying. When I was on-call, back in the day of pagers with 1-mile radii and when they only gave you the extension that the person called from, and I had a 10-minute response time back to the hospital, I pretty much stayed in the hospital for the whole on-call period. So did everyone else. Saturday night on-calls in hospitals = drink drive crashes and suicide attempts. I can’t believe that most people taking phone calls or texts in a movie are that type of on-call, particularly as I never see them damn well leave once the call comes through. 🙂

pecunium
8 years ago

Kiwi girl: This comes up at Passover, and it seems to be some translational error (no… say it ain’t so), the English might better, read, “And God strengthened his convictions”. The idea is that Pharaoh wasn’t making a decision out of reasoned thinking, but abject fear, and God made it possible for Pharaoh to act on his wishes, not his fears.

pecunium
8 years ago

Diogenes: You aren’t paying attention. The Talmud isn’t Mosaic. Moreover, it postdates Hippocrates, and so isn’t relevant to the asinine “logic” in that piece I referred to.

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
8 years ago

@pecunium thanks for pointing out another translational error (LOL perfect word of god). One question: from the alternative translation, it still appears that god was dicking around with the pharoah’s mind, so does my point still stand: how can one possibly tell if any decision / consent was freely given without god interference?

This is so much more fun than incorporating peer review into a journal article… 🙂

freitag235
freitag235
8 years ago

There is a movie theater in the state capital here that offers Baby Day on Tuesdays. Every show before 7:00pm is A-OK for babies, and since it’s clearly stated that it’s Baby Day, people who aren’t cool with it know to stay away. It’s a great compromise. People with babies and toddlers get to have a day out with their kids, and nobody who doesn’t want to be in the theater with babies has to put up with it. Perfect.

They also don’t put up with inconsiderate assholes in their theater. They have hilarious PSAs before the movie that say clearly “no talking, phoning, texting, etc. because it disturbs other people.”

Here’s one of their actual PSAs:

And here’s an actual voicemail some little [censored] left for them after being kicked out for breaking their clearly stated rules:

It’s very much worth the drive to go there for a movie. They serve food and beer (wine too), show movies in 3D, and offer an annoyance-free movie experience. Uncool to plug them I know, but my local theater chain is overrun with those who like to talk amongst themselves and light up the theater with their cell phones. I prefer to drive for awhile and make a fun event of movie going since I have the option.

Plus, Baby Day.

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
8 years ago

@freitag235 so if you don’t arrive with a donkey, they give you one so they can take it off you? It’s arse, not ass, dammit! Admittedly, you can sit on both. And we kiwis do put the “r” sound in there like the Brits, so they’re not homonyms.

You North Americans and your funny ways. Oh, and when you come to NZ, please refer to “fanny packs” as “bum bags” as fanny has a completely different meaning over here (similarly in Australia and the UK)….

indifferentsky
8 years ago

So I lost my mind and ranted about this on a social networking site on which I partake with my home town childhood friends and family. I deleted it, but it went something like, See who you’ll vote for to save a buck? Wow what you people will do to save a buck MAYBE! (and you probably won’t even get a dollar back in taxes.)

etc. sooo. Hopefully I’m not disowned by anyone. I did delete it.

pecunium
8 years ago

kiwi girl: One can’t. It’s an imponderable. If one argues for an actively interventionist God. The argument, re Pharoah, is that God was only making it possible for Pharaoh to do what Pharaoh wanted. God didn’t want Pharaoh to be able to say, “I only did it under duress.”

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
8 years ago

@pecunium re the imponderables, these only seem to occur when a situation could be interpreted as god being a psychopath. There never seems to be an imponderable where the situation is clearly interpreted as god being good. This appears to be a way of giving god a free pass on horrible outcomes.

I was also thinking about mistranslations in the bible, based on our previous short conversation. What I was wondering was this: if god is omnipotent,then god would have foreseen the mistranslation occurring, so god must have wanted the translation to happen otherwise he would have stopped it from occurring. So why didn’t god just get the correct word transcribed in the first place? Did he want people to be wrong in their translations for only a few hundred years, but was fine with things being corrected after that? What’s the point of that?

Back onto the original topic: pregnancy isn’t the only possible outcome from rape, so are STIs, PTSD, physical damage, etc. So that would mean that any person who was raped who got an STI (with or without pregnancy), for example, that was god’s intention. god the psychopath strikes again.

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
8 years ago

I feel a Monty Python intervention is necessary at this point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBqe5xvYnNc

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

All of which is a reminder of why Ceiling Cat is a totally superior deity to NugganYahweh. 😉

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
8 years ago

Cushions not crucifixions! 🙂

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Now there’s a slogan I could get behind! 😀

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Freitag, are you in ATX? Every time Mr. HK and I try to go see something at Alamo it’s sold out.

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
8 years ago

🙂 The other thing with the OT is that it is a regression back to the lowest stage of moral development (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development). So much of fundamentalist xtianity is based on stage one, not stage four – and stage four isn’t even the highest stage – it’s still at the concrete reasoning stage of human cognitive development (if you follow Piaget).

“How can I avoid punishment” (and therefore the converse: anyone who is punished deserved it) is hardly positive advertising for developed moral thinking.

freitag235
freitag235
8 years ago

It would be an interesting legal defense. “Yes, your honor, I did rape that woman. But she got pregnant, therefore I was doing God’s work and shouldn’t be punished.” And in 34 US states he can legally sue for parental rights and that’s current fact, not some politician’s theological belief. It’s true. Thirty-Four fucking US states give parental rights to rapists, so they can continue to torture their victims some more.

Dear Dog but I do so hate these people. I do not believe in the malevolent and vicious god they worship. I can’t do it.

freitag235
freitag235
8 years ago

@hellkell, I’m not in the capital itself, but it’s a couple of hours drive and that’s not so bad. You and Mr. HK can buy tickets online and they’ll be waiting for you at the box office. I do that so I don’t make the drive for nothing. And it is so worth it not to have the yapping and texting, plus have someone bring me dinner and a drink. (Great place to take a date, too. Just sayin’.)

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Dear Dog

Heretic!

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
8 years ago

The topic has made the NZ news media: http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/7858312/Rape-pregnancy-Gods-will-Republican-candidate

Completely off topic, I clearly need this otherwise my Java learning will come to nothing, because of my lady brain and lady hands: http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/7861675/The-ladies-get-their-own-laptops

How can I possibly learn Java on a normal black desktop?

pecunium
8 years ago

Kiwi girl: I was unclear. If one accepts an activel interventionist God one cannot assume any act wasn’t caused by that God.

That’s the imponderable. Blagovitch commuting all death penalties… might’ve been God. Bush laughing at a condemned woman… might’ve been God.

My deciding to by a baguette this afternoon, might’ve been God.

That’s the problem with an actively interventionist God, it’s completely destroys the theologic underpinnings of free-will. Which is why the meaning of that passage of Exodus is so important. If what God did was make it possible for Pharoah to exercise his free will, that’s one thing. If what he did was jerk him around like a puppet on a string, that’s another altogether.

pecunium
8 years ago
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

So, he not only likes the idea of rape victims being forced to bear the rapists’ children, he wants to make women that much more vulnerable to it happening.

Colour me unsurprised.

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
8 years ago

@pecunium ah, my background leads me to automatically presume an actively intervening god, and I thought the bible leads to that belief also, as god is written as intervening everywhere. For the other possibility, I cannot see how one tell the difference between a non-intervening god and having no god at all, because there would be no difference in outcomes, i.e. god could not be invoked as a reason for any outcome. So this latter situation doesn’t even produce the “god of gaps”.

princessbonbon
8 years ago

So I was reading the reaction from Republicans and basically they have no idea why people are upset but they do know people are upset and damn it, stop being so upset!

It is almost as if they want to lose.

pecunium
8 years ago

Kiwi Nothing in the bible require an active (i.e. regular/ongoing) intervention. Part of the point of the bible is to point out the places/times/situations in which God did intervene, and by extension context to understand the otherwise inexplicable.

God’s intervention is supposed to be shown as extraordinary… miraculous.

nerdypants
nerdypants
8 years ago

Maybe he’s not an arsehole, maybe he’s just a Calvinist. Oh wait, that’s the same thing.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

The Bible loses me at the point … actually as a story, with God as a character, it loses me from the get-go; but if nothing else, the Flood would be the last straw. It’s not even the matter of wiping out humanity, it’s wiping out all the land animals as well. Yes, of course the story takes the moral stance and the attitude towards animals of its time, I’m well aware of that. But literalists still push the idea of it actually happening – slaughter on an unheard-of scale – and in the same breath tell us this psychopath is perfect, loving, etc etc. It sickens me.

Cushions Not Crucifixions!

(I am so stealing that, kiwigirl. 😉 )

pecunium
8 years ago

Kitteh’s: There are two things there: one is the probably reason for the flood story: The infilling of the Black Sea, about 7,000 years ago. While it was happening the water was movig as much as three miles a day. At it’s narrowest point it’s about 148 miles across, so the rising waters would have chased refugess for about 25 days. At the wider parts it’s about twice that, so it could have been 50 days of fleeing the rising waters (a “flood from the deep”).

So the oral history/mythology had to account for everything in the known world being wiped out.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

@ Kittehs

Child me always felt like the Bible had started out with God as a terrible and frightening force and then they’d tried to sanitize it by adding the love stuff later. So basically, like what happens in families when there’s a resident abuser and everyone tiptoes around them trying not to piss them off and tries to convince themselves/outsiders that the abuser is a good person really.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Yes, I knew about the Black Sea flood, but it’s the “God is perfect but slaughters animals because he doesn’t like human behaviour” tale we’ve received through so many generations that pisses me off. If it was still at the level of “god/gods are powerful and can be complete arseholes and nobody expects anything better of them” it would make more sense. It’d be almost like Odin, who for me is less horrible than Yahweh because he wasn’t all powerful; he was trying to stave off Ragnarok however he could. Doesn’t make him good but for me it highlights what a tow-rag the fundy God is. He didn’t need to do any of this stuff. The oral traditions of ancient peoples trying to explain a calamity are one thing; taking them as literal truth, and pushing it as the actions of a wonderful, perfect, loving, moral being just don’t work.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Cassandra – that’s a perfect comparison! Dressing up bald power, abusive power, as some sort of love.

I much prefer the way kitties mess with one’s mind.

timetravellingfool
8 years ago

if anyone had said that twenty, ten, hell, five years ago, it would have been career suicide. Seriously. What the almighty flying fuck is happening here?

timetravellingfool
8 years ago

Any trolls, btw? I has a sad today and could use a verbal punching bag.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Troll alert on the GGW thread. Pell, probably.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I mean GWW.

timetravellingfool
8 years ago

Weeee, gww is so cray zeeee!! thnx cassandra!!

pecunium
8 years ago

Kitteh’s: We are the products of our past. Those who built that narrative to explain a world ending catastrophe (dude grabs what he can of his animals onto a boat and manages to keep just far enough behind the traps of submerged trees, hills, buildings, to survive) are gonna tell a pretty fucked up tale if when they try to rationalise it.

Put him in a world where all the gods are angsty, abusive, ideas, and you’ll get one like that. Move forward, and make it a story in a mythos where the godhead has become all-powerful, and you have a recipe for built in cognitive dissonance.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

All too true. Couldn’t get a better example of cognitive dissonance than a fundy of my acquaintance whose only retort to “God committed mass murder on several occasions” is “God is perfect.”

And I say that as someone who has plenty of beliefs that could fall under the cognitive dissonance umbrella! :/

captainbathrobe
8 years ago

This guy knows that women, you know, vote and stuff, right?

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Captainbathrobe – yeah, but they’re working to fix that bug.

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

I can’t find it now, but someone said in this thread that Mary wouldn’t have free will if she didn’t have original sin… At least according to Saint Augustine, free will AFTER the fall merely means freedom to follow one’s desires, which are tainted by original sin. BEFORE the fall humanity had a deeper kind of free will. You could say, in contemporary philosophy speak, that humanity had some kind of libertarian free will before the fall but merely classic compatibilist free will afterwards.

According to that interpretation, Mary being free from original sin would mean she had MORE control over her decisions than any other human being.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

The whole free will business is sort of problematic when you’ve got a God who’s ready to zap you for not doing things his way. It’s a perfect example (as CassandraSays pointed out upthread) of an abusive relationship.

And sticking the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden and saying “Don’t Touch” to a couple of beings with the moral development of toddlers? If God had had a stove, he’d have left a boiling pot with the handle sticking out where any two-year-old would grab it and get scalded, I swear. As a straight story, it’s either entrapment or incompetence, neither of which is appealing.