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$MONEY$ antifeminism crackpottery matriarchy misogyny MRA oppressed men paranoia pig ignorance playing the victim radfems oh my reddit straw feminists

“Even when men are all locked in cages, they’ll complain that it’s so much work for women to feed them,” and other insights on feminism courtesy of Reddit.

So this weekend I attended an interesting conference on the future of feminism. I’d like to present some of the most insightful papers from it.

Clarification: When I said I “attended a conference” I meant I “took a look at the Men’s Rights subreddit.” By “interesting” I meant “tedious” and by “insightful” I meant “ridiculous.” And by “papers” of course I meant “comments.”

So here, without further ado, are some of the pearls of wisdom I found in a thread asking the twin questions “What, in your opinion, is Feminism’s ultimate goal? When do you think they’ll consider their job ‘done?’” (Each yellow comment is a direct answer to one or both of the questions.)

Boy, these “feminists” sound like terrible people!

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Karalora
Karalora
7 years ago

@tcwill00

My puzzlement is more over the fact that the smitiest of the non-evil gods would specifically deny his clerics the handiest tool for smiting that clerics routinely possess.

“Go forth, my children, and punish evil…but NO HURTY MAGIC! We don’t do that here! Physical spankings only!

pecunium
7 years ago

The daycare is named for The Guild of St. Cuthbert, who run it (as well as managing the various parades). The Guild takes it name from St. Cuthbert of Lindisfarne (b. ca 635, d. 687). He was probably born in Britain (from evidence in St. Bede’s Mercia).

He was a Roman Rite missionary to Ireland, after the Synod of Whitby decided to use it rather than the Celtic Rite. IN 676 he adopted a hermetic life on an island off the coast of Lindisfarne, until he was elected; quite reluctantly, Bishop of Lindisfarne in 685, which office he fulfulled until Christmas, 686. At that time he decided he was not long to live, resigned his See, and retired again to the life of a Hermit, where he died in the following March.

The various reports of miracles attributed to St. Cuthbert caused him to be called, “The Wonder worker of England.” King Alfred the Great took St. Cuthbert as his Patron. His remains were at Durham Cathedral, but were lost in the violences of the Reformation; though the casket in which they were laid was recovered in the 19th century.

Why yes, I did work the Northern and Southern Calif. Faires for 20 years.

pecunium
7 years ago

As to D&D, I started playing in 1978, or so. 2nd is probably the ruleset I know best,and enjoyed most; though some aspects of 3rd aren’t alien to me.

Karalora
Karalora
7 years ago

Thanks, pecunium. I assumed it was really named after a historical saint, but I never remembered to look it up once I got home from the Faire.

It still makes for a nice giggle for D&D players, though. “Let’s name our daycare after the god who carries a rod to flog evil! That’ll learn those rotten little toddlers!”

pecunium
7 years ago

Sorry, brain-cramp. I always (I know not why) confuse Lindisfarne with Ireland. That there is a tradition (almost certainly false) that Cuthbert was the son of a king in Ireland doesn’t help; given his close association with it.

pecunium
7 years ago

Karalora: There are a lot of ways in which the faire is (at times apallingly so) run like a 16th century village. All the performers (as opposed to Staff,and booth owners/employees) are in, “Guilds” which are named for saints. Quirks of the historical past (when it was a 501(c)3, prior to being bought out by the R.E.C), combined with labor law issues (because of how the R.E.C. didn’t have the insulation that a non-profit could manage) mean they are, officially, independently contracting organisations.

It’s byzantine, and I spent enough time in it that I understand it as thought it were simple. 🙂

But oh… the politics.

Falconer
7 years ago

Dangit, I’m using my tcwill00 handle. Sorry!

@karalora:

“Go forth, my children, and punish evil…but NO HURTY MAGIC! We don’t do that here! Physical spankings only!“

I know, right?

The inflict wounds spells are classified as necromancy spells, but they lack the [evil] descriptor. My aforementioned smitin’ cleric has a morningstar of spell storing, which means I can load it with a spell, and then when I hit something, I can trigger the spell. So far I haven’t gotten much more creative than inflict severe wounds, but I’m thinking maybe I should branch out.

Of course, then I think about the guy who I was playing Basic D&D with, in which magic-users start out with only one spell. This guy took the least combat-useful spell in the book (charm person), but man he made that sing. He got in with a group of goblins in Keep on the Borderlands by charming their leader, convinced them all to gather round, then he and the elf cast sleep and took out the mooks, leaving only the chieftain for the dwarf to fight. Good times.

Karalora
Karalora
7 years ago

@Pecunium

I feel like I should be more into Ren Faire than I am. I manage to go one day almost every year, and I wear a costume…but it’s not a very good costume. I made it from a Simplicity pattern several years ago when I was less good at sewing than I am now and went with cheap, easy-to-handle cotton fabrics. I’ve been meaning to make a new and better one, but I never seem to get around to it. I wouldn’t even know where to start when it comes to developing a persona.

@Falconer

With the right group, there’s no such thing as an underpowered tabletop character. I played through a Spirit of the Century campaign with a character whose best Skill was basically the nonmagical equivalent of charm person, and I mopped the floor with villains who weren’t expecting the little blonde ingenue to suddenly make them feel guilty about the life path they had chosen. It helps that the game is designed so that besting an opponent socially or psychologically is just as valid a victory as doing it physically. Whether you break their leg or drive them into an existential crisis, they’ll still be out of commission for weeks.

Falconer
7 years ago

@Karalora: I’d never heard of this Spirit of the Century RPG. So I googled it, and I got to the product page from Evil Hat Productions, and I read as far as

Gorilla Khan stalks darkest Africa from conquered Atlantis…

You can stop right there.

Falconer
7 years ago

HOLY COW IT’S A $5 PDF

Karalora
Karalora
7 years ago

@Falconer

It is probably the most fun RPG I have ever played. It’s certainly the cleverest in design. I recommend the shit out of it.

cloudiah
7 years ago

Speaking of science fiction and alternate realities, a dude over at the Spearhead comes up with a reason to hope time travel is never invented:

Sink me! This is why I hope time travel is never invented: the feminists would go into the past and retroactively deem all men rapists! Then they would get the idea to go back to the dawn of humanity and arrest all the first men, who, obviously being pre-civilized men would have no concept of “women’s rights.” Then the whole demmed human race and its history would go poof!

Once again, they’re onto us! All of our dastardly plans exposed.

(This is in a thread about that photograph of the sailor kissing an unsuspecting nurse on VJ day during WWII, and it is of course filled with run-of-the-mill (i.e. terrible) Spearhead comments.)

Falconer
7 years ago

@Cloudiah: And then it will never have happened! So the human race and its history will poof back into existence! Until the “demmed” women (what are we, in Downton Abbey?) invent the time machine again! IT’S A VISCOUS CYCLE!

I hope no one ever invents the time machine because right now I want to go sock Alexander Bell in the mouth for stealing inventing that hideously annoying device for interrupting my train of thought and all of my conversations, the telephone.

Shaenon
7 years ago

This is why I hope time travel is never invented: the feminists would go into the past and retroactively deem all men rapists!

Feminists: the Mormons of rape accusations.

cloudiah
7 years ago

Feminists: the Mormons of rape accusations.

Good one!

BTW, from now on, feminists should be known as femosquitoes and manginas are “yes, dear” ticks. The reasons should be self-evident, but just in case not here’s a link.

princessbonbon
7 years ago

That guy from the Spearhead knows about as much history as Bill O’Reilly.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
7 years ago

Sink me! The Scarlet Pimpernel is a demmed MRA!

~Sir Percy Blakeney, Baronet.

pecunium
7 years ago

Karalora: If all you want to do is be a customer, no worries, and persona is what you make of it. If you want to be a “participant”, you have to 1: be willing to commit the time (depending on what you do you may have rehearsals, as well as the performance run), and the money to get a costume which will pass approval.

Character building isn’t that hard; unless you decide to play a known person (most of which are in the Court, and the clothes are expensive. My courts cost me about $1,500 it amortises (and it’s a bit cheaper if you can do your own manufacture; women’s court dress is differently expensive from male costume, but neither is trivial, and the male accessories can be a lot more expensive). Middle class clothing will be in the $2-800 range. “Peasant” is what most people wear, and it’s not going to set you back more than a couple of hundred; because the bodice is a bit of a hassle; though making it isn’t that hard/expensive.

Fitzy
Fitzy
7 years ago

So, the Spearhead dude thinks we’re blood-suckers. Does that mean that we’re now a vampire Mongol hoarde? Because that would be pretty rad.

Karalora
Karalora
7 years ago

@ Pecunium

Oh, no, there’s no way I could take it to the “participant” level. For one thing, I don’t have a car. Utter madness in L.A., I know, but there it is.

It’s more that, given the other sorts of things I am into, like tabletop RPG and costuming, I feel like I’m cheating myself out of a more detailed Ren Faire experience. I have this weird tendency to put heavy expectations on myself for “performing” my hobbies. Even ones where no one else expects anything of me. I’m definitely a geek by Bob “Moviebob” “Game Overthinker” Chipman’s definition.

tcwill00
tcwill00
7 years ago

@karalora: Thank you so much for the rec! SotC looks like awesome fun so far.

GordonWillis
7 years ago

Think about it. All these “professional feminists” who are in positions of power and made a career out of finding things for women to complain about. They’ve dedicated their lives to that. Do you REALLY believe, they’ll one day turn around and say “job done, I’m not needed anymore”. Course not. They’ll just manufacture increasingly absurd gender theoretical constructs that paint women as victims of the patriarchy. That is their job. The show must go on.

Change this a little:

Men will never consider their job done, no matter how far the balance tips in favor of themselves. That’s the nature of their underlying thoughts. Even when women are all locked in cages, they’ll complain that it’s so much work for men to feed them.

Think about it. All these “professional MRAs” who are in positions of power and [have] made a career out of finding things for men to complain about. They’ve dedicated their lives to that. Do you REALLY believe, they’ll one day turn around and say “job done, I’m not needed anymore”[?] Course not. They’ll just manufacture increasingly absurd gender theoretical constructs that paint men as victims of the matriarchy. That is their job. The show must go on.

Karalora
Karalora
7 years ago

You’re welcome!

Oh, and you’re showing as tcwill00 again.

GordonWillis
7 years ago

The gospel according to AloysiusC:

They will never consider their job done, no matter how far the balance tips in favor of women. That’s the nature of their underlying thoughts. Even when men are all locked in cages, they’ll complain that it’s so much work for women to feed them.

Think about it. All these “professional feminists” who are in positions of power and made a career out of finding things for women to complain about. They’ve dedicated their lives to that. Do you REALLY believe, they’ll one day turn around and say “job done, I’m not needed anymore”. Course not. They’ll just manufacture increasingly absurd gender theoretical constructs that paint women as victims of the patriarchy. That is their job. The show must go on.

Change this a little:

Men will never consider their job done, no matter how far the balance tips in favor of themselves. That’s the nature of their underlying thoughts. Even when women are all locked in cages, they’ll complain that it’s so much work for men to feed them.

Think about it. All these “professional MRAs” who are in positions of power and [have] made a career out of finding things for men to complain about. They’ve dedicated their lives to that. Do you REALLY believe, they’ll one day turn around and say “job done, I’m not needed anymore”[?] Course not. They’ll just manufacture increasingly absurd gender theoretical constructs that paint men as victims of the matriarchy. That is their job. The show must go on.

Dumpster Jedi
Dumpster Jedi
7 years ago

@cloudiah

Joke’s on them. If time travel and the alteration of historical events were possible in that way, with those particular consequences, it’d have happened by now: somebody would have invented time travel, gone back, and done something idiotic, and we’d all have been poofed out of existence. The fact that we have not seems to imply that either time travel is impossible, or it just does not work that way.

Kim
Kim
7 years ago

Or there was originally an entirely different bunch of people and *they* were poofed out of existence and we took their places.

katz
7 years ago

“yes, dear” ticks

*slow clap*

ShadetheDruid
7 years ago

Returning to the subject of X-COM!

My friend has it, and he says it’s good. In some ways better than the original, in fact. And the fact that they don’t seem to have fallen in the same traps as the original did makes me want to get it even more.

Like armour actually doing something, and plasma weapons not being OP (oh the times I raged at a kitted out, well armoured dude getting instantly owned by a lowly Sectoid with a pistol). Apparently it’s also less just send-in-waves-and-waves-of-faceless-mooks and more that your people actually matter, which is awesome.

So far I haven’t gotten much more creative than inflict severe wounds, but I’m thinking maybe I should branch out.

Would healing spells work? Weapons that heal someone when you hit them with it are always hilarious. 😛

emilygoddess
7 years ago

@whataboutthemoonz:

Hell, they already took their “Wikipedia wants non-biased information and not your FEMINIST OVERLORD CONSPIRACY CRAP” and turned it into “the feminist masses are suppressing dissenting voices on Wikipedia”.

Got a link? For some reason, I love Wikipedia wank.

@Everyone: Spirit of the Century is awesome. It’s easily my favorite RPG (of the handful I’ve played). And I really, really want to play a Venture Bros game in that system, but I don’t have enough friends who are into both 🙁

Falconer
7 years ago

Would healing spells work? Weapons that heal someone when you hit them with it are always hilarious.

You know, against undead, that would actually be a valid target.

They’d have to have more HD than half my level and to have resisted my turning attempt, otherwise they’d be dust or cowering in the corner.

But yeah, I should totally do that. “Feel the blessings of St. Cuthbert!” *WHAP* “OW!” *cure spell* “What is wrong with you!?

Falconer
7 years ago

Valid *tactic.

Karalora
Karalora
7 years ago

@emilygoddess

I am so into FATE System that I am borrowing from it to create a homebrew Disney Princess game.

emilygoddess
7 years ago

@Karalora I’m intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter (/oldmeme). Would they be action heroes, like in Jim Hines’ books? ‘Cause I’d play the shit out of that game.

Karalora
Karalora
7 years ago

They could be, if you decided to play them that way. I am statting out the existing Disney Princesses, but creating your own Princess would also be an option. My goal here is to create a very simple, story-driven game suitable for little girls to play. I’ve seen a few people stat the Princesses as D&D characters, with classes suitable to their respective schticks in the movies, but to the best of my knowledge no one has attempted to invent a game where they would be played as themselves, whether that meant defeating wicked witches or making clothes for the ball.

Which Jim Hines books are these? The name isn’t ringing a bell.

katz
7 years ago

Would healing spells work? Weapons that heal someone when you hit them with it are always hilarious.

I’ve totally done that.

emilygoddess
7 years ago

Jim Hines writes a series (starting with The Stepsister Scheme) in which Cinderella, Snow White and Sleeping Beauty are spies/action heroes working for the Queen of…whatever their pseudo-medieval-European fantasy land is called. They’re not great literature, but they’re entertaining, and Hines is a pretty avid pro-feminist and anti-rape blogger when he’s not writing novels (that’s how I first heard of him, anyway).

But I love your idea of making an RPG for younger girls. Hook ’em while they’re young 😉

Karalora
Karalora
7 years ago

I think “Play as your favorite Disney Princess or make up your own!” should be enough to get them interested.

I’m wondering if I can use my nieces as a playtest group. They are aaaalllllll about princesses. I already mentioned the one who pulled the sword out of the stone earlier.

Fitzy
Fitzy
7 years ago

I’m already bouncing around in my seat about this game. My daughter already loves logic games and puzzles (IRL and on the computer). She’d eat this up. The only downside would be trying to convince her to stop for baths, sleep, food, school…

Melody
7 years ago

You should look at the comments on youtube videos. I got into a debate with some dude about feminism and it has escalated quickly. I’ve been called all sorts of names and told all the ways I was the downfall of my gender. And also told how women aren’t creative, women are mooches upon society, women should have to sign up for the draft (that is a popular one) and all sorts of other things that had no relevance to anything I said. And no matter what source I have: peer reviewed journals, us census, world health organization ect they have blogs that disprove whatever I say.
The internet is a frustrating and scary place.

Falconer
7 years ago

Re: The discussion about the Disney Princess RPG.

I think that’s a great idea, with the obvious corollaries about gender norms et al. because I’m a white guy and it could look like I was enforcing gender norms by encouraging a princess RPG for girls.

The problem with D&D and parenting is that D&D is awfully violent, no matter the edition. It has themes of standing up between the strong and the weak, between evil and good, but at its core it’s all about swinging a bigger sword than you had five levels ago.

Lord knows my parents tried to bring me up to be patient and loving and not violent, and I want to bring up any of my children the same way.

So I think FATE is a great thing for the pretty young: it has nonviolent problem solving, it’s flexible, it encourages creativity rather than pigeonholing characters.

Interactive storytelling and roleplaying in general, I think, would be great for teaching how to deal with obstacles and setbacks without throwing tantrums (because that’s a set of skills most people need to learn).

And if it means Aurora can be a kickass spy, all the better.

Fitzy
Fitzy
7 years ago

…women are mooches upon society…

I always love that one, too, Melody. Most of the time because it seems to come from guys who sooner or later will start bitching about how women take all the good jobs from men and warehouse their kids in daycare. Were we less moochy back in the day, when we stayed home and only produced childcare and delicious baked goods? Or when our paid labor was of the laundress/wet nurse/maidservant/low-wage factory girl variety? It’s a mystery.

I’m actually less bothered by the angry ones than I am by the “poor little lamb, we’re so concerned about you!” types. The worried guys believe that wanting autonomy is some kind of whim I’ll overcome once a kind, rational man points out the errors of my way. This if probably a prejudice on my part, though. I’ve only had three serious boyfriends in my life (including the hubs) and one of them was an Evangelical type who was about knee-deep in the Christian patriarchy movement. He started explaining my role as a woman once we’d been together a few months. Men were spiritual leaders of the family, he told me, and as such he’d guide me through God’s will for us both once we got married. My own sinful womanly nature led me to want leadership and independence, but God demands submission. Oh, he knew I’d had an upbringing that had encouraged feminine vanities, that my church was less clear on the role of the husband/father, and that we lived in a culture that encouraged women to try to be men. But he’d help me! He’d be the man I needed to help walk in Christ! And since I loved him, I’d allow myself to be guided; after all, as spiritual head of the family, he’d have to answer for my sins as well as his at the final judgement!

Just thinking about it all now still makes me gag. I didn’t give up on organized religion until a few years ago, but I think those lectures about how equality was hurting me planted the seeds of “WTF?”. Wanting a fair shake in life is not a vice.

Fitzy
Fitzy
7 years ago

Ooo, I’m glad there are gamers here! Thanks for the FATE recommendation, Falconer. I’m pretty sure my daughter will really like gaming in a few years, but as I don’t play (and my husband travels too much to get a chance anymore) I don’t know what’s good. I’ll have to look into that when she gets older. Or have my brother tell her about it; what’s lame from Mom will probably be awesome from Cool Uncle.

Also, I meant to say it further up the thread but forgot – thanks for the Borderlands 2 review, Shade. My husband loved the first one, and I was wondering if he might like the second as a welcome home present. I’ll have to hit GameStop on payday.

ShadetheDruid
7 years ago

Falconer: I think it depends who you have as a DM, and how flexible they are to adapting rules for things that aren’t specifically spelled out in the books. Then again, if I thought D&D was perfectly fine and the only problem was bad DMs, I wouldn’t have started a total redesign like I did, so there’s that. 😛

I’ve done D&D stuff where i’ve had characters that prefer non-violent solutions, or non-kill solutions (one of my favourite characters eventually “evolved” to the point where she only really killed fiends, anything mortal she tried to take down non-lethally or talk down with diplomacy, which she was also really good at). It’s certainly possible, it just requires a bit more work to fix the issues in the system (which if you’re looking for a system you can just pick up and play, it isn’t ideal).

Like my character above would never work in base D&D because she was a fighter with like a million diplomacy (exaggerationz 😛 ).. And the designers thought fighters didn’t need diplomacy for some reason. D: Maybe i’m biased because i’ve always played with people who didn’t mind just changing stuff we didn’t like, but i’ve never seen D&D as that bad when it comes to stifling creativity.

Violence and kids is a really complex thing too. I think I tend to take it for granted that as an adult, i’ve had lots of time to work on compartmentalising non/anti-violence in real life and enjoying violent entertainment in separate little mental boxes.

Fitzy: No problem. 😀 Hope he enjoys it, I certainly did (at least as much, if not more than the first one, in fact).

Karalora
Karalora
7 years ago

I’m glad my princess game is getting so much interest. So far it’s been more of a creative exercise than anything else, but this is prompting to think harder about it and put more work into it. Should I go start a thread over in the forums to track my progress and get advice? I’ve never actually designed a tabletop game before and even this one isn’t going to include much original design.

Falconer
7 years ago

@Karalora: Sure, go ahead! I’m not around the fora much but I’ll look in. I’ve been meaning to hang out there more.

Karalora
Karalora
7 years ago

Started a thread in the Whatever forum. Be prepared–the first post is long!