Over on the Men’s Rights Subreddit, PacmanWasALangolier is taking concern trolling to a whole new level. Apparently, according to some unspecified research, the women of today have gotten picky — tragically picky — about the men they date.
It turns out that a lot of women aren’t interested in dating just any dude out there! They cruelly, selfishly, wantonly insist on choosing whom they date and whom they don’t.
The horror!
Mr. Pacman is concerned, “honestly concerned,” for this can only end in disaster, not just for men but for those poor misguided women themselves. And possibly civilization itself.
To drop the sarcasm for a moment, let’s look at his “evidence.” First, that bit about how, historically, only 40% of men have passed on their genes. This figure comes from a paper by psychologist Roy Baumeister that’s a favorite amongst the Men’s Rights crowd, and the claim seems to be true — at least if you’re talking about the whole span of human existence.
Does this prove that women have always looked down their noses at the majority of men, refusing to have sex with decent average Joes in favor of riding that old “alpha asshole cock carousel,” as manosphere assholes so delightfully put it?
Well, not exactly. It merely suggests that in the past, more powerful men had sex with more women than the poor and subjugated, and thus were far more likely to pass on their genes. (Or at least that, however many partners they had, their babies were more likely to survive to produce babies of their own.) The figure tells us very little about the actual preferences of women, because many times the choice about who had sex with whom was made by men. Powerful men collected women into harems; male soldiers routinely raped women on the defeated side; in patriarchal cultures, fathers decided whom their daughters would marry. And so on.
Mr Pacman might also be referring to an interesting post on the OKCupid blog that revealed some interesting data on how the dating site’s (straight and bi) men and women rated the attractiveness of members of the opposite sex. But (if that is indeed what he’s referring to) he’s leaving out half of the equation, and thus totally missing the point.
Yes, it’s true that women on the site rated roughly 80% of the men on the site as “below average,” while men were much more “charitable” in their choices, with “a woman … as likely to be considered extremely ugly as extremely beautiful, [while] the majority of women have been rated about “medium.”
But Mr. Pacman has left out the most interesting part of the findings. Even though men on the site were charitable in how they rated women, with their assessments of female attractiveness falling roughly along a normal bell curve, they were more selective — much more selective — in whom they contacted. As the OKCupid blogger, Christian Rudder, puts it, “when it comes down to actually choosing targets, men choose the modelesque.” Women at the top of the bell curve in terms of attractiveness (at least as rated by site members) get
nearly 5 times as many messages as a typical woman and 28 times as many messages as a woman at the low end of our curve. Site-wide, two-thirds of male messages go to the best-looking third of women. So basically, guys are fighting each other 2-for-1 for the absolute best-rated females, while plenty of potentially charming, even cute, girls go unwritten.
For women, the results are strikingly different. While they tended to be pretty selective when it came to rating men on their looks, in practice they were far more open to dating men they considered average or below average in looks. As Rudder notes,
women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. On the other hand, when it comes to actual messaging, women shift their expectations only just slightly ahead of the curve, which is a healthier pattern than guys’ pursuing the all-but-unattainable. … [T]he average-looking woman has convinced herself that the vast majority of males aren’t good enough for her, but she then goes right out and messages them anyway.
Of course, the data here might be skewed by another factor that the blogger doesn’t address: on OKCupid, when someone rates someone else highly, and that someone else has also rated them highly, the site sends out a message informing both of them of a possible match. Women rating particular men as unattractive may not actually think of them as unattractive, but may be simply trying to avoid getting a lot of spammy messages from guys whose profiles they may not have looked at in detail.
So, yeah, once again, the real world is a lot more complicated, and much more interesting, than the world inside the head of the typical MRA.
Thank you for the encouragement, I have found that I’m not the only one my age who has hidden on chat clients to avoid talking to someone they are supposedly dating for no reason other than having to talk to him again is annoying. When I was at university I found that some men did compromise as much, since the guy who lived next door to me was constantly ranting to his friend about actually having to spend time with his girlfriend.
I think Lori Gottlieb seems fairly odd, it is just that she seems to urge people to compromise completely but see not liking spending time with someone as trivial as not liking their hair style. Do men really want to date someone who doesn’t even like them? That seems a fairly extreme compromise as well. I am not sure I understand what people mean by being less picky.
If you’re talking MRAs, Pear_tree, I doubt whether they care whether a woman likes them ore not as long as they have control over her. But MRAs are hardly representative of men in general.
*or not. Attack of the random e.
In my experience, it means to stop holding out for what you want, stop respecting your own preferences and needs, and give in to whomever is telling you you’re being too picky, and do what s/he wants.
In some circumstances, it’s a practical compromise. Can’t find the dried exotic mushroom the recipe calls for, or it’s too expensive? Use dried porcini instead, no big deal.
In others, it’s someone telling you that you don’t matter. Don’t want to settle for perfectly adequate but boring young man from down the street? Then say “thanks for your input” and subsequently ignore the well-meaning advice from people telling you to date him. His need to have a nice girlfriend like you is NOT more important than your need to have a boyfriend who suits you.
Eh, the whole notion of settling for someone you don’t really like and aren’t really compatible with is a nonsense throwback to the time when it just wasn’t okay to be perpetually single and not have teh baybeez.
Personally, I like being single a lot more than I liked being married to my ex. He was someone that I normally wouldn’t have given a second look, and for good reason, but I was 31 and childless, with a lot of pressure to find someone, anyone, to have children with. He abused me for 3 years, until I was diagnosed with a very nasty, potentially fatal disease. He left me while I was in the hospital with a potentially fatal infection. Great guy…
I learned my lesson. And, Pear_Tree, a wedding ring or even a relationship doesn’t guarantee that your SO will take care of you when you’re sick. Having family doesn’t guarantee that they’ll take care of you either. My parents and brothers didn’t. The people that did help me were an old friend and my new boyfriend that I met and started dating after my husband took off.
While my situation was extreme in a lot of ways, there’s no way that I’ll settle for someone that’s not right for me ever again. And, I also don’t care about “passing on my genes” to future generations. There are a lot of ways to leave a legacy in the world, without procreating.
Here’s the thing about relationships and compromise: People tend to see it as an all or nothing proposition, you either compromise on nothing or everything. Instead you shouldn’t compromise on the things which are really important to you that you need and be more flexible on things that are less important that you want. For example, my boyfriend hits my important standards in that he’s intelligent, caring, liberal, an atheist, kinky, respects my limits, loves me, etc. but he doesn’t match some of my less important wants like having long hair, artistic, active D&D player, likes to go swimming with me (in fact he can’t swim), look good in tight leather pants or a kilt, switches (well that would be a deal breaker if he expected to be my only play partner), etc.
I have a friend who can’t separate these things, her list of traits a guy has to fit is incredibly long and detailed. I’m not an expert on statistics but I’m betting the chance of any man in the US, let alone the area she lives in, living up to that list is very tiny. I’ve told her that she should narrow it down to the things she finds most important and compromise on the less important aspects like food preferences (not kidding).
I dunno, food preferences are critical. If I’m with someone who doesn’t eat brown bananas, that’s a lot of wasted bananas. And come on, what kind of soulless person drinks pulp-free orange juice.
On a serious note, I’ve done some demographic calculating, there’s probably about 300 people in the US who would be remotely willing to date me seriously. My standards, not particularly strict; I don’t want to be eaten by my cats when I die. (Not that many people aren’t perfectly happy being cat food, I’m just not one of them.)
I suspect my kitties would turn up their noses at eating me …
Sadly, my experience in finding a partner was mostly a “well, randomly in this JC class you meet a guy who likes the same anime as you do and you become friends and both of you have wiggly feelings inside about the other, and eventually it comes to a head and you both are like, ZOMG KISSING IS AMAZING FIREWORKS and then relationship and marriage and babies and stuff.”
So…..I’m not quite sure how I’d replicate that if I ever lost my partner. 🙁
PacmanWasALongier says:
Furthermore, throughout all of history, only 40% of men have ever managed to pass on their genes (this would be the 20% of men above and below that 80% mark). For contrast, 80% of women throughout history have passed on their genes. Men don’t have the same unrealistic standards.
You see, the problem is that men have this habit of competing with each other and then the winner picks the women. A successful male, like a sultan or rajah, collects a harem. He has lots of women to choose from, because he has the power to compel, and therefore lots of opportunities for fucks. So he gets lots of children. So obviously the male gene-pool shrinks while the female gene-pool continues as large as ever. Then there are those societies that approve of a man having several wives, probably because the losers want the same power as the sultans etc… And finally, there is the problem that the less successful men spend their time whining that the more successful men are getting the goods…and they blame the women for this, instead of accepting their own pitiful inadequacy, selfishness, stupidity, ugliness, smelliness and basic lack of brain-power… Losers always whine. That’s what the MRAs are about.
I’m just glad that I have finely reached the point in my life that it isn’t necessary to have a two legged chatter box, emotionally immature, insecure, unreliable and potential financial rapist – otherwise known as an American female – in my life. I can take care of myself, clean my home, use a microwave, wash my own clothes and don’t have to worry if my right hand is going to falsely accuse me of a crime, steal my hard earned money or turn my son against me and best of all my right hand never says no or I’m not in the mood nor gives me the brush off, gets the moody blues or nags.
DaPoet: The fuck are you talking about?
If you don’t like women that ‘s fine, go your own way and stop bragging about how you’ve beaten the system.
The rest of us, in the real world, where people are people; and not hiveminds, will be happy with out partners, or our singleness, or whatever mix of those we enjoy, and continue to be happy.
Honestly, if it weren’t for the women in my life, I’d probably be dead by now; or homeless and struggling.
@DaPoet: There was a time in your life when somebody like that was necessary? That’s pretty strange, fella. It’s a pretty stringent set of requirements, too. I’d be hard pressed to locate somebody like that in real life.
But, whatevs. You go on with your bad self. Like, GYOW already. Buh-bye.
By the way: you could have done all of that self care yourself at any point in your life past, say, puberty. Life skills: it’s good to have some.
Why oh why can’t these MGTOW duders ever actually GO?
Maybe they realise deep down that if they just went, instead of standing screaming “I’m going now! I’m really going! I mean it!”, nobody would actually notice …
Wow. I mean, really, wow.
I don’t think of myself as particularly successful, but when you’re listing “can use a microwave” as one of your accomplishments… damn.
My mom convinced me at a very young age that the only men who would be interested in fat, ugly me would be violent rapists who I would be lucky if they didn’t just outright kill me and instead used me as a breeding machine. Because I wasn’t thin and blond like she was and she wanted to let me know what was in store for someone like me.
When I was starting out as a teenager, I tried to find someone who would love me back who I cared for as well. When that went badly, I ended up dating people who were at least not evil murderer/scumbags, but who still generally took sexual advantage of me by holding their affection hostage unless I complied to their sexual requests.
By the time I met my current partner, I had finally realized that, yes, being with someone who was shitty and horrible was WORSE than being “alone forever”. Had I not met him, I probably would still be single by choice. Masturbation has been more fulfilling to me than every relationship I’ve ever been except for my current partner.
So as far as I’m concerned, a good number of men are not even worth my time. And a good number aren’t interested in me or are partnered. So as far as I’m concerned, I’d be perfectly happy being by myself if the situation were to arise. I mean, if something good happened and I met someone awesome, that’s great, but I’m not really of the mind to ever start actively looking again.
There’s just not a lot of incentive for me to want to slog through all the horrible people in the world to find one or two that reciprocate my feelings and desires and wants more than a one night stand.
But, ya know, I still don’t hate men.
Great, DaPoet. You don’t like American women. That’s great. Instead of regaling us with how you’re going your own way, please do something novel among your community and… go. Sticking around to tell us all about how you’ve gone your own way is like a 4 year old threatening to run away, while refusing to budge from the front porch.
Back to the original post, I have a feeling that, if this song were done by a group of guys with mullets and sung in the Cookie Monster growl, most of PacMan’s cohorts would love it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W34W8NLF7k
Too bad for them that Sin with Sebastian is fucking awesome!
Nepenthe – makes you wonder what sort of upbringing our little alleged poet had, doesn’t it? He’s such a big hero for being able to do those things. Mine are just as basic, but trotting them out as if they were important? Or worse, as if they’re things that only women should do and it’s so WOW DUDE if a guy can do them? Ah, the bathos …
Man, my boyfriend can clean, wash his clothes, use the microwave, and masturbate and yet he still keeps my girlfriend and I around. Can’t imagine why.
Also, I suggest that perhaps your problem would be solved by not dating chattery immature insecure unreliable rapists? Because that person sounds terrible!
I’m a hero! I flushed the toilet after taking a crap!
I’m such a martyr! I did my own laundry!
Oh, look at me, HUMAN OF THE YEAR, I totally did the dishes after making myself some lunch!
PINNACLE OF HUMAN ACHIEVEMENT COMING THROUGH.
So basically DaPoet has outgrown the need for a mommy who he can fuck? That’s not exactly a huge achievement, dude, but hey, if it’s all you have to be proud of…
(I’ve never seen someone boast about being able to use a microwave before. Could you set that bar any lower?)
Meh. Hey, D. P., check back when you’ve mastered
(ominous music)
THE TOASTER OVEN.
Nepenthe:
My daughter, for one. And much though I personally strongly disagree with her on this, I can’t really disown her on those grounds.
Frankly, I commend DaPoet for removing himself from the dating pool. Good on you, buddy — we’re all better off!