If anyone wants to talk about the debates, or anything else vaguely political, have at it here!
Also, I’m not exactly sure why someone wanted to make wax Romney and Obama heads, but I figured I’d put these up in case any of you were ever wondering what that would look like.
LOL “not to sound mercenary, but fuck homeless people”. And you wonder why everyone else hates libertarians.
As for what it costs you, did you read the posts above about how we ALL pay increased medical costs when people have to rely on the ER for treatment? How about the money that’s not moving around the economy because people who are homeless don’t have much to spend? How about the labor they are unable to contribute because no one will hire them? Ugh, now I sound mercenary. But if self-interest is all that motivates you…
As for Social Security: it’s nice that you make enough that you can afford to set some aside to invest. You’re aware that lots of people can’t spare any money, right?
“not to sound mercenary, but I also don’t see how someone else being homeless costs me anything.”
Emergency medical, which would be their only real resort and even then is limited greatly in treatment options. All damage and costs should they be mentally unsound and unable to get needed treatment, which closely related to all damage and costs involving law enforcement and criminal offenses that a transient lifestyle would possibly cause someone to undertake given their situation.
What else am I missing in the price tag?
Oh yeah.
Basic fucking feeling of empathy to another human being.
If I were American, the fact that Gary Johnson is advertised on omegle alone would be enough to encourage me to go out of my way to not vote for him.
For the record, the only reason that homeless and otherwise indigent people are able to drain the ER system is because the government (boo government) passed a cruel, cruel law (EMTALA) requiring emergency rooms and hospitals generally to admit people who are critically ill/injured or in active labor. Before this tragic limitation on freedom, medical establishments had the liberty to let people who couldn’t pay die on their doorsteps. Ah, the good old days.
1. Fuck you.
2. Right before we created the social safety net, we had this little thing called the Great Depression, where 12 million people died of starvation.
3. Fuck you.
4. The guy who had his face eaten in Florida was homeless. Think he had health insurance? Cause he’s still in the hospital right now as far as I know.
5. Fuck you.
6. Those “makers” that you wank off to are making their money through the labor of others, using a public infrastructure that tax dollars pay for. They can pretend they’re all boot-strappy and shit until the cows come home — they’re lying. Mitt Romney took federal money to keep Bain afloat. He took federal money to keep the Salt Lake City Olympic games solvent. Paul Ryan’s construction company made its fortune on government contracts. RuPaul, your holy father, sticks loads of pork into budget bills that he then votes against because he knows they’re going to get passed and his state will still get federal money, and then continues to pretend that he’s somehow a rogue outsider who speaks truth to power.
7. Fuck you, buy an island, move to Somalia, go Galt, just get the fuck out of here.
And regarding social security, all of those boomers who are reaching retirement age right now spent their entire working lives paying into it. It was running at a surplus, so we raided the fund and spent the money. And now we’re trying to tell those people that there are too many of them, and that we can’t afford their old asses anymore. Fuck that, and FUCK YOU.
Can we build a time machine and send Owly back to the 50s?
The number of bank failures in 1933: 4,000. Lost of money by depositors? $140 billion. Updated for inflation? $2,331,985,990
Let us say you decide to invest it in the stock market. But unfortunately Bush was in office at the time your retired. Your portfolio loses 20% value. Which means that your annualized returns also are reduced by that much.
Let us say that you invest in the stock market and bonds. Unfortunately your income also takes a massive hit since they lost about 28%.
Unless you happen to have extensive time to devote to keeping up with the various markets, you can easily get screwed out of a decent retirement.
This is why you are supposed to have social security-it is a security against any other life trashing events because governments never go out of business.
Everyone speaks truth, and let’s not forget the possibility that the mighty Diogenes might himself someday be stricken with a chronic illness, lose his job, and find himself homeless and/or uninsured, at which point the system would cost him a great deal.
Diogenes, I just want you to know that if this happened, I would be completely in favor of social programs helping you.
The reason everyone has to pay in is because everyone gets it eventually.
But private charities, Katz! People will pour money into charities once we relieve them of their crushing tax burdens! You know, once you convince them that the epidemic of homelessness costs them something, since that’s what matters…
Blitzgal: RuPaul is awesome, the political one, not so much.
If social security and pension peograms were run peoperly instead of being gutted and underfunded at every chance, there would be no problems with these programs. The problem here is not that the idea of the program is flawed, but that a lot of very very powerful people have been trying to gut and cut these programs every step of the way and then funnel the money to the rich elite by way of corporate welfare.
Right now, the Governor of CA is doing his damndest to get ahold of CALPERS money, which has been properly funded for years and supports all the public employee health and retirement benefits.
As far as I am concerned, no one should be allowed to touch money that is set aside for a specific use, especially not by using the old bullshit of “oh I will pay you back later.” Except not. That is why I am so pissed about “pension reform.” Pensions were promised to be funded. Instead, they underfunded and the agencies borrowed from them. Now, we are told that there is no money and sorry but you will have to do without. THAT is bullshit right there. When I see people who worked hard all their lives have that safety net yanked out from under them, many of whom decided to defer to lower wages in exchange for pension security, it fucking pisses me off. Because now they are the suckers, relegated to poverty and no way to recoup the loss of the wages that went to their now defunct pension.
Also please do come visit the Bay Area if you want to see how expensive homelessness can be.
Last year in my county alone, homeless cookong fires created over 6 million dollars in fire damage. Homeless feces and urine has seeped into much of our water sources, requiring more expensive extensive water treatment. Homeless are largely responsible for our meth, heroin and crack cocaine epidemics, which financially support gangs and overseas drug cartels. Many homeless flock here because the weather is not extreme but when they camp en masse, this exponentially increases outbreaks of disease, habitat destruction, pollution of water and soil and many other horrible things. And did I mention that CA is one of the #1 sources of produce for the US?
Homeless are often in and out of jails for petty crimes and drunkenness so they can get shelter. They often go to the emergency room multiple times in a row because they do not have shelter and the unsanitary informal camps breed further infection.
These things alone cost thousands and thousands of dollars. Now multiply them by how many homeless there are. The resulting cost to society is mind boggling.
You know those pesky social welfare programs that allow people not to starve and die of exposure? They cost less, per person, than letting people fend for themselves on the streets. We can always improve our social safety net and make less room for abuse or long term use, but getting rid of them altogether would be a royal clusterfuck.
On Investing for Retirement :
You may remember a little thing called the financial crisis. The market lost 56% of its value between September of 2007 and May of 2009. People who had part of their retirement savings in stocks saw those assets lose 40% of their value.*
Not a big deal, you say? That kind of stuff happens all the time, if you’re smart you can work around it, and most of the time it will all bounce back and you can make up the difference? Well, it’s a big deal if your last day of work was on November 1, 2007. I’m betting the private social safety net of which you speak is supposed to be market-based, too? n a similar situation, that would leave a lot of people screwed. I do privately invest myself. The market may be rockin’ and rollin’ when I pull my own 401K money in 2050 or so. Or it may not. Market corrections happen all the time,** and the invisible hand sometimes gives you the finger right when you could use a high-five.
By comparison, if we do nothing with Social Security as it stands right now, the SSA is projecting that they will still be able to pay three-quarters of promised benefits in 2086.*** So, conventional social security loses 25% of its value in the future. Stock-centric retirement plans lost 40% of it’s value in a little over eighteen months. Sure, all kinds of stuff could happen between now and then to make SSA revise its estimate. But even with the almighty charlie-foxtrot that has been the last decade, they’re still projecting a 75% payoff for my cohort. I’m not about to turn that down.
That’s, of course, assuming that by “investing” your money you mean trusting it to Wall Street. If by “investing,” you mean piling gold bullion in the broom closet, more power to ya.
On the Homeless, Expensive or Otherwise:
A homeless Missouri woman smashed a police car just so that she could get off the streets for a night.**** It’s pretty pricey to repair one of those, not to mention the expense of booking and jailing the perpetrator.
Jacksonville, Florida is the biggest city near me. They’ve been trying to revitalize the downtown for years. The downtown area, however, is full of homeless folks.***** There are private shelters in the area, but they have to lock out residents during the day. These people are not dangerous, but they do tend to scare away the timid. Fewer “normal” people downtown equals fewer people to spend money at the local businesses. The police have to spend a lot of time moving these people if business owners complain. That’s officers’ time, paid for with tax dollars, that is being used for busy work. Since the local businesses won’t allow them inside, and the public library has limited hours and facilities, they often have to take care of bodily functions on the street. Someone has to clean that up, and that someone has to be paid. All of the aforementioned and more are reasons why the city is having a hard time convincing more businesses to move downtown. This has been going on for decades.
TL;DR – In conclusion:
1. The market is at best a fickle lover, at worst a robber baron who will make off with your riches and leave you to scramble until the day you die.
2. There are hidden costs to everything, and
3. Since we’re going along the lines of self-interest here, I completely left out compassion for your fellow man. But that, too.
Citations:
* http://www.urban.org/publications/411847.html
** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_economic_crises
***http://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/index.html
****http://www.kmov.com/news/local/Woman-commits-crime-on-purpose-to-get-off-street-162729796.html
*****http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-apr-homeless-are-the-paramount-end-user-of-downtown
I have citations, but I’m sure they’re stuck in moderation.
And look – I was ninja’d by pretty much everyone 🙂
Literally the only way not to see how extreme poverty and inequity affect you directly is to be willfully ignorant about how society absorbs the hidden “costs.”
Complaining about bootstraps wont solve it. Neither will wringing your hands about teen pregnancy and keeping legs closed.
It takes a small man to be unable to see the big picture. Libertarians are a bunch of small individuals with big denial and entitlement, beating on the drum of ignorance and self-interest.
Yeah, I never know how to get around that. Maybe I will start saying “RoPaul.” Yeah. RoPaul it is.
My internet connectons been spotty.
Before this thread I didn’t know I was so fortunate. So privileged. I thought I was an average Joe. Now I’m a rich white guy, except for the fact that I’m Persian, and have never been rich. In fact, I spent the majority of my childhood in poverty you can’t imagine. But I’m a white libertarian guy, so that should be impossible.
@cassandra
How does this magic work? Flattening the income curve prevents murder, and rapine? Incredible!
And a competitive job market also helps protect workers.
Also, notice how I said I’m a libertarian? It means I’m not an anarchist.
@thenat
1. You really think thats their thought process?
2. Do you work for free? Why would you expect your doctor to do the same? One way or another, everything has a cost, and there’s no such thing as a free lunch.
3. Where did I say I don’t like poor people? You’re putting words into my mouth.
4. Don’t start a flame war. Don’t even try. When everyone is rich, they can afford to be charitable. Its that simple. If your goal is to make everyone equally poor, you’re making the problems you want to solve worse.
Also, where did I say anywhere that someone should be denied healthcare? You think charity isn’t reliable? Ok, start your own.
@cassandra
Its their money. Don’t begrudge them for it.
I know I’m in the minority, but I’d rather take the right position than the popular one. But don’t complain to me when the government blows up kids in another country because I wasn’t the one who supported statism.
Yours was better. Thanks.
I know, seriously, I can’t imagine how saying you don’t care if people are homeless because it doesn’t affect you could be interpreted as not liking poor people. You like ’em just the way they are: homeless and destitute!
You’ve chosen to take neither.
@Ice
None of that was free. The money for it had to come from somewhere.
@cassandra
Don’t be an ass. “Extreme selfishness?” Really?
I had one year where I was able to give 20% of my income to charity. Another year where I was underemployed, I drove, and visited sick people in the hospital. Right now I volunteer twice a week. You can take your accusations of “extreme selfishness” and shove it.
You can only have money and time for charity if society doesn’t make you terribly poor. I suggest you read Eat The Rich by P.J. O’Rourke. You don’t even have to read the whole thing either. Just read the last few chapters.
Libertarians’ incessant need to demand that people read their books jives well with my theory that teenagers just end up assimilating the philosophy of the first philosophy or politics-related book they read on their own.
P.J. O’Rourke? Yeah, you just outed yourself as very young and naive.