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New frontiers in victimology: Men are “intimidated” into buying women drinks in bars

Women intimidating a man in a bar.

MRAs, forever exploring new frontiers in victimology!  The latest revelation: Apparently men are being intimidated into hitting on women in bars due to the mysterious, malevolent power of their femaleness.

Here’s Howsmydirktaste, putting this theory before the good folks in the Men’s Rights subreddit for some “peer review.”

[S]eduction aims to use a man’s desire against him by giving him the possibly false impression that he may have sexual relations with the seducer. By doing so he may make decisions that he might not otherwise make (buying a drink at a bar, paying for a purse, etc.)

So women are engaged in some vast conspiracy to extort drinks and purses from men they don’t want to have sex with?

I’m pretty sure that unless a woman is holding a sign that reads “I’ll have sex with you for a drink,” that you really shouldn’t assume that she’ll have sex with you for a drink.

Intimidation does the same; the prospect of physical, monetary or emotional pain subjects the subordinate into doing things they might not otherwise do. Both of these options result in the same consequence of the dominant one convincing the subordinate that it is in their best interest to do something that is not in their best interest.

So a woman sitting in a bar looking pretty is the equivalent of a mob enforcer.

 Now morally: the main claim against male intimidation is that men, on average bigger and stronger, are being unjust by asserting a natural superiority. By doing so they have an unfair disadvantage.

Well, the claim is that when men act in an intimidating way towards women, they’re intimidating. Merely being larger than a woman isn’t a crime.

But sexually, don’t women have that same power? Men are genetically predisposed to look for mating opportunities in all women, and when a woman presents that opportunity, even the most iron-willed man could fall prey.

Apparently, we men are all at the mercy of our penises, and our penises are at the mercy of ladies looking sexy in our general vicinity.

Women don’t face that same situation; their requisite near-monogamy (because they can only have one child at a time, they are more selective in their sexual selections) means that male seduction does not hold the same sway.

Actually, the problem is that many traditional methods of “male seduction” actually involve real intimidation. And today there are a vast array of PUA sites out there offering updated versions of the old intimidating ways, teaching “pickup” techniques that are basically guides to date rape.

I think everyone here can identify a situation in which they or others have given undue attention or favor to a woman who seems a possible sexual partner. Doesn’t that result in the same affect as intimidation?

I’m going to step out on a limb here and say “no.”

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Gametime
8 years ago

Shorter Truthster: “I find it hilarious when my confirmation bias enables me to read unsubstantiated details into stories!”

inurashii
inurashii
8 years ago

@Troof, I’m not gonna try to disprove your claim because I don’t feel like reading back through comments to find this shit out and everyone else will do it for me.

My point stands, though, that you got called out and your response was a derail.

But derailing’s all you’ve really got, so I guess I should be lenient.

RubyHypatia
RubyHypatia
8 years ago

OK, so this guy thinks he will end up getting used. Well, it happens, and users come in BOTH genders.

howardbann1ster
8 years ago

I love Troof so much right now.

“I didn’t call her a slut–I called her an alpha-fellater!! That’s totally different.”

Seriously. You said that. You… you had me at “I’m an unabashed PUA, and that’s totally not rape.”

Hee.

howardbann1ster
8 years ago

Sorry, guys, but this troll always gives me giggle attacks. He works so hard to defeat his own arguments in one post!!

howardbann1ster
8 years ago

To be clear, I’m apologizing because his views are so reprehensible nobody should ever laugh. They should gasp in horror, point, and shun him. Shun him hard.

Fight the urge to laugh. Fight it!!!

whataboutthemoonz
8 years ago

Here’s the deal.

Seduction: You will be rewarded if you act in a way you might not act otherwise, but will probably not harm you.

Intimidation: You will be actively harmed if you refuse to act in a way you probably would not act otherwise, and might also harm you.

Everybody sees the difference, right?

inurashii
inurashii
8 years ago

@moonz:

Come on, let’s be fair. Blue balls are pretty painful! So basically not being given sex is like physical harm.

Eh?

Ehhhhhh?

cloudiah
8 years ago

An Inconvenient Truth A Clichéd Fallacy.
FTFY.

Shaenon
8 years ago

I’m coming to this thread late, but I want to assure NWO that this will definitely be going into the Book of Learnin’:

EDUCATION
In order to attend any college in the U.S., male students are required to watch a video about how men are evil and women are good. The student must then take a test about the video, and if he scores less than 100% he can’t go to college.

Shaenon
8 years ago

I lived in Ireland for a while (ooh, maybe I was that Canadian guy’s dream girl!), and if you were a regular at a pub, it was considered rude not to stand your round and buy drinks for everyone in the house once in a while. That must’ve gotten messy after hours.

Fembot
8 years ago

That Last Minute Resistance and Freeze Outs Stuff is disturbing. Way to teach men how to be manipulative sociopaths. I had an ex who was extremely manipulative and seemed to play all sorts of passive aggressive head games. The more I learn about game, the more I think he was into it.

cloudiah
8 years ago

Those posts were terrible, although some of the comments were not so much rape-y as just kind of sad…

Nice post, a lot of good info. Once I have a woman in my living room, I like to transition to the bedroom. To me, there is something definitive about moving to the bedroom that screams sex. I do this by bringing up art. We will talk about art, painting, etc. (girls love this shit). I then tell her I painted a large canvas and ask if she would like to see it. They always enthusiastically say “yes.” (I painted an abstract painting on a large canvas I have in my room). I tell her the painting is in my room and I take her by the hand and lead her back there. That’s when I make my move. I found this dramatically lowers last minute resistance.

So this is the modern day equivalent of “Would you like to come up and see my etchings?”

I’m picturing something like this. And the discussion is probably along the lines of “The blue represents my sufferings and tribulations. The mauve bits are reflective of the lessons I’ve learned during my great trials (see how the mauve sort of ‘takes over’ that happy face in the upper left? That symbolizes my ‘don’t worry, be happy’ philosophy), and the white background is a reminder that hope springs eternal.” That dialog totally screams sex, and no woman can resist a man who screams about sex. Do not worry if the woman collapses in hysterical laughter at this point; that’s just another kind of LMR! Keep kinoing her, and don’t forget to LIHGOD:EKNG, since that is what really closes the deal.

inurashii
inurashii
8 years ago

From one of those awful LMR sites:

look, i have been at this a long time, constantly looking for the girl that i wanna fall in love with, i have been friend zoned so many times, im looking for a way to make everyones life better, not just me. i am a good person, and i will do anything at this point to show a women that. and if it means, employing so Technic then so be it. the women in my life deserve a real mad that isnt going to let them down. i have been to quiet for way to long. thank you alpha, and the other guys on this site. im learning stuff that i have seen work, but never has anyone been able to explain it to me.

What a catch.

cloudiah
8 years ago

BTW, if any men out there would like to know what LIHGOD:EKNG stands for, please send me $29.95 and I will send you my FREE e-book: How to Have Lots of Passionless, Machine-Like Sex with Insecure & Vulnerable Ladies. Manly orgasms are guaranteed!*

*Orgasms for any gender are not actually guaranteed. E-book is not actually free. Product may contain peanuts, so if you have nut allergies proceed with caution. Pregnant women, the elderly and women who are conscious should avoid prolonged exposure to PUAs, as they have been known to cause irreversible vomiting laughter, which is dangerous for all in the vicinity. Please do not kino anyone without their express permission, as that can lead to assault charges. Do not read e-book in the shower or bathtub, or during thunderstorms. Please keep e-book refrigerated, and use before the expiration date on the package. Do not operate heavy machinery while under the influence of PUAs, unless you are chasing them down in an armored tank.

MordsithJ
MordsithJ
8 years ago

From David’s link:

Shtark replies: “There are safety rule that allow the girl to stop at any moment, so that it won’t be a rape. Roso was briefed in detail by our lawyer at the course.”

They have LAWYERS present at their classes? Holy crap.

cloudiah
8 years ago

Wow. [shudder] It looks like this was actually reported to the police as “incitement to rape” since he also encourages other men to use the same techniques. I couldn’t find any story that said what, if anything, happened, although the police were able to discover his real identity.

Historophilia
Historophilia
8 years ago

Also what the hell was this magical “safety rule” that allowed her to make him stop?

She told him no and refused to take her clothes and underwear off, repeatedly objected to what he was doing and he just kept going? What the hell else was she supposed to do?

She clearly was not being allowed to “stop at any moment” IF THE GUY IGNORED HER EVERY TIME SHE TOLD HIM SHE DID NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX!

What is this special password that will prevent PUA dudes from date raping me? Because I think we should all be informed as a matter of public safety.

Also, when will these people understand, that if you do not allow someone to say no or withdraw consent, that if you repeatedly ignore their no’s, verbal or non-verbal and they eventually give up and lie there in the hope that it may be over sooner…. THEN YOU HAVE FUCKING RAPED SOMEONE ARGELHJBZDSKFYHZKDFJHVXKDFBKHFGB

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

@inurashii

the women in my life deserve a real mad that isnt going to let them down

The good news for him is that he’ll definitely succeed in giving the women in his life a real mad

Effie
Effie
8 years ago

Holy shit. Jesus H. Christ, if she says “no” repeatedly is it so damn difficult to say “OK, I’ll stop” and THEN STOP?? I’ve been in situations like that and damn. There comes a point where you realize “he’s going to rape me no matter what I say or do.” Stunned doesn’t begin to describe my reaction.

There’s a famous rape case where a guy took a woman’s car keys away after she had driven him to his apartment after their date. Guy took the keys, wouldn’t give them back until she had come up to his place. Once up there, he took her clothes off and penetrated her as she lay there frozen and crying. After he was done she asked him, “Are you going to kill me now? Please don’t kill me.” Appallingly, at least four guys in my law school class said it WASN’T rape because “she never said no.”

Those two weeks of Criminal class were the worst of my first year in law school. Triggers galore.

Also, just to stay on topic, I’ve bought other women drinks before as a sign of interest. Somehow, I managed to refrain from raping them after they either declined the drink, or accepted it but didn’t reciprocate interest. Fancy that.

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

@Historophilia

It’s not that they don’t understand that, it’s just that they don’t give a shit as long as they don’t get caught.

Historophilia
Historophilia
8 years ago

@shadow

You are of course right, I am still naively functioning under the belief that most people are decent at heart.

Well I still believe this but I’ll go so far as to say that anyone who subscribes to PUA beliefs automatically does not.

princessbonbon
8 years ago

What is this special password that will prevent PUA dudes from date raping me?

Possibly this one: “I just dialed 911 so they can record me screaming NO STOP RAPING ME as you rape me to make it easier for the prosecutor during the trial. so NO STOP RAPING ME” and yell that last over and over until he stops.

(I know this is very unlikely and not at all the secret password. Because there is no secret password since they have no intention of ever stopping. 🙁 )

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Gods. I need kitties after that. And I didn’t even follow those links.

http://youtu.be/ROF0Mcv5XSM

themisanthropicmuse
themisanthropicmuse
8 years ago

@Historophilia “Also what the hell was this magical “safety rule” that allowed her to make him stop?”
Why do I imagine it’s similar to the following:

PUA safety rule Number 1# If she gets ahold of something she can use as a deadly weapon while you are attempting to ‘seduce her forcefully’, run away for your own safety! Bitches be crazy, yo!

Fembot
8 years ago

If only women were taught to be assertive, and that is perfectly acceptable to say “No” and get up and leave, and that your safety is more important than hurting a man’s feelings or giving him blue balls.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

@thenatfantastic

Ugh, that story, and this quote.

“I watched her. She was one of those people who seemed the most genuine caring person you’d ever meet. I stood up and asked for directions and asked for the time – if I had just paid her a compliment, told her she was amazing, I could have put this to rest.”

So if he’d told her she was amazing and she’d said “um, thanks? all I did was tell you how to get to the train station”, and he’d then asked her out and she’d said “no”, or “sorry but I’m married” or “actually I’m a lesbian” then he’d have been satisfied with that? Somehow I doubt it, given that he’s framing this as if an approach from him would have guaranteed that she’d be his forever.

The whole thing is creepy for all the reasons you mentioned, but it’s his assumption that of course this complete stranger would go along with whatever plans he has for her if only he’d made those plans clear that really bothers me, because it reminds me of every incident I’ve ever experienced (or friends have experienced) where a man has acted first baffled and then angry that the woman he’s hitting on doesn’t actually exist purely to fulfill his needs.

“Bareback persistence” made me quite literally shudder, and now I feel like I need to go bathe in disinfectant. Thanks for reminding us that PUAs are horrible people, Truthy.

PsychoDan
8 years ago

The same point can be made about the claim that men are genetically predisposed to sleep around. One can picture a situation where evolution has caused men to sleep around as much as they possibly can with women in a fertile age, because historically, men who did this spread their genes more. Once again, this evolutionary mechanism would only require that men are horny sex beasts ready to fuck anything which is young and female, that there was no birth control around, and that women generally took care of the babies once they were born. No actually WISH to spread his genes is required.

The thing about this argument that gets me is that, if it were true, it would mean that men should not form any kind of instinctive attachment to their children. And yet, these guys who argue that this is how men work will turn right around and bemoan the fact that men don’t get custody of their children enough.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

And I wonder how the MRM creeps account for men who manage to love children that aren’t theirs, if it’s all about genetics?

But then love of any sort is beyond their grasp.

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
8 years ago

I just pointed out that she presented a textbook example of female behavior as described by the PUA community: fellating an “evil” man for half a decade while two pedestalizing eunuchs worked up the nerve to express their ‘feelings.’ I bet at least one of those beta chumps provided a dependable shoulder to cry on about how awful her lover was.

Lol no. Was that a neg or something? Sorry Truthy, guess you’ll just have to stay a “lowly beta” for now, because I wouldn’t touch your bait with a 3000 foot pole with a bucket of disinfectant on the end.

I’m sorry that everyone thinks you’re a horrible person, but you deserve it and I hope you fall into a vat of sticklebricks.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Well, yeah, if your confirmation bias is strong enough then pretty much everything will seem like a textbook example of the behavior you expect to see. This doesn’t mean that your interpretation is correct, it means that you need to see a shrink.

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
8 years ago

By the way, ‘Lol no’ is short for ‘every thing you read into that was wrong because a) you’re a terrible idiot who knows nothing about me, b) people don’t follow ‘textbook patterns’, c) ‘alpha’ and beta are meaningless terms both in biology and in PUA circles, since the definition changes more often than my underwear (and I’m a clean freak) and d) GAME IS FOR MORONIC TWITS WHO HAVE NO COMPUNCTION ABOUT RAPING PEOPLE, AND ARE THUS DISGUSTING ABUSIVE RAPIST MORONIC TWITS’.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

There’s also the fact that you mentioned that you barely knew one of the “beta chumps”, and that he had in fact been actively pursuing you.

Therapy, Truthy – you should really look into it.

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

@PsychoDan: Yeah, as I pointed out before, there are plenty of perfectly valid criticism to throw against evo-psych, and that’s one of them.

All I wanted to point out is that there theories do NOT require that people actually think about or wish for chlldren when they have sex, so pointing THAT out is arguing against a straw man. But there’s plenty of other criticism to be made.

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
8 years ago

And the other one I hadn’t seen for about six months beforehand, and did not, in fact, ‘pedestalise’ me, but merely wanted to see if I thought we could be more than friends, then backed off when I said no. I didn’t cry on anyone’s shoulder, because I wasn’t sad.

I think Truthy thinks my ex was alpha because I described him as evil. He was evil, but not in the ‘fucking around and negging me’ TROO ALFA way, in the ‘was an average to middling partner then had a severe emotional breakdown after we’d been together for nearly four years and refused to get help, instead taking it all out on me’ way.

But, y’know, confirmation bias.

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

There’s a famous rape case where a guy took a woman’s car keys away after she had driven him to his apartment after their date. Guy took the keys, wouldn’t give them back until she had come up to his place. Once up there, he took her clothes off and penetrated her as she lay there frozen and crying. After he was done she asked him, “Are you going to kill me now? Please don’t kill me.” Appallingly, at least four guys in my law school class said it WASN’T rape because “she never said no.”

That’s really, really terrible.

I have a sunnier story. I just found out the other day that my male colleagues are pretty awesome.

For some reason the issue of sexual violence came up in the lunch room when me and a bunch of men were sitting there. I mentioned the discussion that was all over the internet and media like a year ago – some feminist politician had suggested that the rape law should be changed, so that it counts as rape if one partner did nothing to show that zie was consenting. As the law is written now, it takes the use of actual physical force, an explicit threat, or the abuse of somebody who was “in a helpless condition” (which means more or less unconscious on booze or drugs), or a victim below the age of fifteen if it’s gonna count as rape. So the story you describe wouldn’t actually be rape according to Swedish law, if he hadn’t really made a threat, but it was “merely” a very threatening situation.

So my male colleagues had somehow missed out on this entire debate, but when I explained to them the idea of a consent law they were like “Uh yeah that sounds reasonable”. I said “But there was extreme opposition from loads of guys who thought that it was completely preposterous that one would be demanded to make sure that the woman consents to sex before getting on with it… Everyone was like “Oh, if that were the law, poor innocent dudes could totally rape somebody by mistake! Because it’s SO DIFFICULT to know whether a woman really wants sex or not unless she screams NO I DON’T WANT TO HAVE SEX!”

So all my male colleagues were like “WHAT? Seriously? Did people say that? That it’s difficult to know if a woman wants to have sex with you or not? Like…. what do they mean? Do they ask her, and think she says “okay”, but afterwars they’re like “or maybe she said ‘no’?” [okay and no rhymes in Swedish] Or do they just STARE at the woman without saying anything and then they’re all like “She LOOKS like she wanna have sex with me” and then they just charge ahead?”
Everyone was laughing at how totally ridiculous it is to think that it’s difficult to know whether a woman wants to have sex with you or not.

Okay, this doesn’t really make them awesome, rather makes them normal decent human beings… BUT it seems to be SUCH A TERRIFYINGLY COMMON attitude among men that it’s really hard to tell the difference between a woman who’s consenting and one who’s not, that this reaction from my colleagues warmed my heart a bit.

Wetherby
Wetherby
8 years ago

Everyone was laughing at how totally ridiculous it is to think that it’s difficult to know whether a woman wants to have sex with you or not.

Which would be my reaction too. Hand on heart, there has never been a point in my life when I haven’t been completely certain that full and enthusiastic consent was given. It really shouldn’t be hard to tell – and if it is, you either ask outright or just don’t do it.

And I suspect I’m not the only one who thinks that having sex with someone who doesn’t actually want to have sex must be a pretty unpleasant experience for both participants. After all, unless you’re some kind of sadist, or someone profoundly incapable of empathy, shouldn’t an unmistakable look of fear, hatred or revulsion on her part be a fairly massive turn-off?

But then again, my partner’s pleasure is an absolutely crucial ingredient for me, which puts me fundamentally at odds with most MRAs.

An Inconvenient Truth
An Inconvenient Truth
8 years ago

I don’t know, Truthy, this looks to me like a vast array of sites offering advice that looks an awful lot like date-rape how-tos.

Pigga, please. Closing a hesitant buyer is not theft.

cloudiah
8 years ago

I would just like to recognize Truthy’s hard work here. It isn’t easy to be this stupid or evil; he really puts a lot of effort in. In recognition of that, Truthy, here is your certificate, suitable for framing.

Gametime
8 years ago

Closing a hesitant buyer is not theft.

Taking the money out of someone’s wallet because they didn’t actively tell you “No, you are not allowed to take money from me without my permission” is theft, though, and that’s what pretty much every PUA story boils down to.

(Obviously the framing of women’s bodies, or anyone’s bodies, as property to be negotiated over transactionally is gross and invasive and abusive and wrong, but since Truthster can’t even figure out the simple-ass implications of his own rapetastic worldview I thought I’d better stick to explaining how he’s wrong even if you accept his ugly assumptions.)

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

Pigga, please. Closing a hesitant buyer is not theft.

This is the stupidest analogy I’ve heard. There are any number of illegal ways to close a sale, so even if they don’t classify as theft, that doesn’t make them any less illegal or prosecutable.

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

I’m gonna smooth past that “Pigga please” just to keep from being overwhelmed with pity at the thought of you gleefully rubbing your hands over your selfperceived wit.

Shaenon
8 years ago

Aw, Truth, honey. A penis is not a defective car that you can only get off the lot by scamming customers until one of them gets fed up and calls the cops on you. At least, most people’s penises aren’t.

An Inconvenient Truth
An Inconvenient Truth
8 years ago

There are any number of illegal ways to close a sale, so even if they don’t classify as theft, that doesn’t make them any less illegal or prosecutable.

And there are a number of perfectly legal ways to convince fence-sitters to act, which is why Futterball’s blanket condemnation of all PUA sites that address LMR is idiotic.

Gametime
8 years ago

Honestly, I’m pretty sure there is not a single PUA site on the web that doesn’t advocate some form of coercive, abusive behaviour, but even if there is the fact that Truth-banana is more concerned about how PUAs are getting lumped in with rape advocates than about how there are any PUAs advocating rape speaks volumes about his priorities.

Also, some day the “stop shaming men’s bodies” MRAs should really get together with the “men who don’t fit into my narrowly-defined conception of acceptable masculinity are worthless” MRAs and hash out their differences, because as it is they’re sort of muddling the message.

inurashii
inurashii
8 years ago

@Troof:

Link us.

Show us one PUA site that mentions LMR in a non-rapey way. Just one.

I mean, it’d take more than one example to actually convince anybody reasonable that the whole deal isn’t a clear-cut rape-enabling tactic, but I’m doubting that you can find a single one. So I want you to try.

katz
8 years ago

I suppose it’s pointless to ask truthy whether “not technically illegal” should really be the benchmark of one’s morality.

Nepenthe
Nepenthe
8 years ago

My main hobby is going to public parks and whispering mean things at children playing until they cry. I mean, it’s not illegal. I don’t see why everyone is so fuckin’ judgemental.