Aside from Men Going Their Own Way and others who have sworn off women altogether, the almost-exclusively straight dudes of the manosphere devote an incredible amount of time trying to figure out how to get into the pants of young, hot, “fertile” women in their teens and twenties, and complain bitterly about the terrible injustice they suffer when these women refuse to have sex with them.
And then they turn around and attack women in their thirties for actually wanting to have sex with them – because these women have committed the dastardly crime of having sex with other men when they were younger. In the parlance of our times the manosphere, this is known as “riding the cock carousel.”
Today we have a lovely example of this latter phenomenon, from prolific manosphere commenter “Deti,” who attacked former “carousel riders” in this rant he left in the comments on The Woman and the Dragon. (There may be lots of equally horrible things in the comments there as well; I haven’t looked. I found Deti’s comment because it was highlighted as a piece of great wisdom on The Private Man, yet another terrible manosphere blog.)
Here’s Deti:
In light of the incalculable damage feminism has done, in light of our society being on the brink of irretrievable and total collapse, I think women need to ask themselves, individually and collectively:
Was it worth it?
Was the cock carousel worth it?
The sex, the occasional orgasms, the attention and validation, the rush, the feelings?
The drunk dancing on tables, the hangovers, the feelings of immediate regret, the knowledge that you’ve just been used as a semen receptacle (for the 14th time)?
We’re off to a rollicking start here. Apparently, table dancing and casual sex (with dudes who aren’t Deti) have brought civilization to its very knees.
Was it worth it?
The ridiculous thoughts to yourself that, no, THIS TIME it will be different. This time I won’t get f**ked over. This time I will get what I want. This time I will save it for a good man, a kind man, the right man — who never shows up.
Did you get what you wanted?
If what they wanted was casual sex with a guy they found attractive, then, uh, yes? (Whether it was good sex is another matter entirely.)
If they were looking for a longer-term relationship, and the guy did indeed turn out to be a jerk or otherwise incompatible, then, uh, no? I’m not quite sure why Deti assumes it’s the woman’s fault if the guy turns out to be Mr. Wrong. (Actually, scratch that: I do know why.)
Did the hot man, the rich man, the sexy man, the alpha, marry you? Did he give you the brass ring of commitment? Did he pledge his life to you? DId he promise to stay around for longer than just until he’s tired of f**king you and putting up with your bulls**t?
Or did you fall (again) for the player’s smooth line that “hey, I think it’s great that a woman like you can have sex with who she wants. That’s only fair. It’s a man’s world, and you should get to partake in it just like we do.”
Yep, that’s right, any man who thinks it’s ok for women to have casual sex with guys they find attractive is clearly an evil, manipulative player. And any woman who believes this is a sucker.
You get out of his bed. You’ve got to get to work this morning. You try to find your panties and put your miniskirt and 4 inch heels on to walk to your car and get an Egg McMuffin and some coffee.
Hey, come on man. Don’t bring the Egg McMuffin into this. Egg McMuffins are delicious.
You add another notch to your lipstick case (one you’ll have to come clean about someday to your therapist or drug counselor or ER doctor, if not your husband). He says “I had a great time. Let’s do it again. There’s some coffee downstairs. Help yourself. I’ve got a lot of things to do today so I need to get going. Sorry I can’t have you stay longer.” You reply weakly: “It’s OK. Call me, OK?” “Sure. You bet I will.”
Desi, worst slashfic writer ever.
LIttle do you know that he just infected you with genital herpes. You’ll find out in a week or so after the incubation period is up and you have festering blisters all over your pubic area. The pain is so excruciating you have to take the day off work, get some treatment at the ER, and stay in bed. You can’t wear panties because the weight of the fabric on the sores is too painful. You can’t walk because the skin on skin friction hurts. Oh well. I’m sure your future husband will understand.
I think we’ve just discovered a new kink: men turned on by the idea of women suffering herpes outbreaks so painful that they have to remove their panties.
In any case, herpes happens. Big deal. It’s a medical condition, not the act of an angry god. Nor is it spread primarily by sleazy players who don’t call women back. According to the CDC, roughly one in six Americans between the ages of 14 and 49 have genital herpes. And, as the CDC notes:
Most individuals infected with HSV-1 or HSV-2 experience either no symptoms or have very mild symptoms that go unnoticed or are mistaken for another skin condition. Because of this, most people infected with HSV-2 are not aware of their infection.
Back to Detiland:
Tell me: does it occur to you that you did it again? Does it occur to you that you’ve f**ked up yet again? Are you getting it yet that the guy who blasted another load on your chest or in your hair last night has no intention of returning the texts you send him, unless it involves an encore performance?
I’m guessing that most women probably aren’t that interested in having any sort of ongoing relationship with a dude who “blasted a load” in their hair on the first date.
Does it dawn on you that maybe what you’re doing isn’t working and maybe you need to try something else? Does it dawn on you that the only things you really got out of last night were a couple of bottles of beer and bragging rights?
And sex, which may have been good or bad. Which is pretty much what the guy got.
It’s 6:45 am on a Sunday morning. You stumble through yet another Walk of Shame across the quad back to your apartment, with your hair and clothes reeking of Aqua Net and stale cigarettes and Old Style and semen.
Like I said: Worst slashfic writer ever.
You pray to God above that you don’t see any of your friends. He smiles on you and today, you are spared the agony of your good friends observing you in all your disheveled, deflowered ignominy. But you see mirror images. You pass by other girls in miniskirts and heels, some of whom lost their bras last night and couldn’t find them. You see other men on their way home, some of whom are hungover, some of whom have little smiles on their faces. You exchange knowing glances with both the men and the women, some of whom you kind of know, others you don’t — but the looks are the same.
“I know what you did last night”.
“I know WHO you did last night.”
Um, no, I’m thinking that most of those who see women walking across the quad on a Sunday don’t actually know who they had sex with, if anyone.
“That sex sucked. But he was hot.”
So again, if a man is crap in bed, women are to blame for not guessing this beforehand?
“I’m never doing this again.”
So as you get home, exhale a breath, disrobe and try to wash the stench from the oddly arousing yet horribly convicting things you did and you allowed another human being to do to you, on you and in you, do you ask:
Is this worth it?
I have a question of my own here: WTF is a “horribly convicting thing?”
Do you have anything more to show for your life than N>10, an STD, recurrent UTIs and probably an abortion in there somewhere?
If you assume that women are defined entirely by the bad casual sex they’ve had, then I guess the answer is “not much.” If you assume that women are actual human beings, like men, free to live the sexual life they want but not defined entirely by it, then I’m guessing the answer is yes.
Manosphere dudes complain (bitterly) when their critics describe them as dudes bitter because they can’t get sex. It’s hard not to describe them as such when they talk about this shit endlessly, and bitterly, on their blogs.
@ Historophilia- I think the clinical term is ‘douchenozzle’, or possibly ‘fucking douchenozzle’. It’s been a while since psych class.
Rant on (directed at the douchenozzle population): If you aren’t a particularly skilled empathizer, than by all means, feel free to take decades worth of feminist advocacy at face value and fuck right off with your assumptions about how a victim should behave. It’s two thousand fucking twelve, no one is trying to trick you into thinking you have to get consent because they think it’s fun for a laugh, your actions are hurting others. Make the minimal amount of effort it would take to ask ‘say, you don’t appear to be into this right now, do you want me to stop’, and stop fucking moaning that all this consent nonsense is tricky and it’s a goddamn herculean effort to ask a woman if she wants to keep going. And, for the love of god, when someone is expending the time and effort to teach you exactly how goddamn easy it is not to rape a person just fucking listen and do it- don’t join a fucking pity party of other guys who hate the modicum of effort it makes to ensure you aren’t a fucking felon and behave like a person with a minimal amount of compassion and humanity. Christ. Rant off.
I’m lucky to not have been raped, but my experience with handsy stranger men in public places who think it’s totes ok to grab all kinds of inappropriate parts of my body has clued me in to the fact that freezing is perfectly natural because you are afraid of this person who clearly doesn’t give a shit what your boundaries might be and who clearly just wants to use your body to their liking.
The implicit unspoken word of the handsy creeper is “it’s just your thigh now, but I could do a lot worse.” If you’re on public transit and you piss the guy off, you could risk your safety, he could follow you when you get off at your stop, and do worse. If it’s in a club, or at a party, you’re the bitch who’s ruining the party and he could still follow you home and do worse.
I used to be naive and think I could be totes badass if a guy tried to rape me, but honestly, I think if flight didn’t work, I’d freeze. Because rape is bad, but if a guy is willing to rape you, there’s no guarantee he isn’t willing to beat the shit out of you in order to subdue you and rape you, maybe even beat hard enough to kill.
I really don’t want to be raped. I also really REALLY don’t want to have to die, or wind up in the ICU in order to keep from being raped. And I shouldn’t have to in order to prove that I don’t fucking want to be raped. This is human decency 101 here.
@timetravellingfool
*applauds* Preach it brother/sister!
@ostata321- this is exactly why I did not fight my rapist. I knew he was an expert in aikido. I knew that he knew how to put me in unspeakable pain with simple maneuvers. I already knew he wanted to and would probably keep raping me even if I was severely hurt. So if my choice is between raped and raped WITH bodily injury, I will choose the less bad option. It doesn’t make rape suck any less. It doesn’t make it any less of a crime.
Also these people are forgetting the “shock that someone you thought cared about you is doing something horrible to you and breaching the trust between you” aspect. Most rape happens between people who know each other. When someone who you trusted suddenly proves that they don’t deserve your trust and actually they can’t be trusted at all, that’s a shock. Freezing is a perfectly natural and not unexpected response.
@ostara321
A-fucking-men.
I should not actually have to give someone a broken nose and scratch their eyes out just to prove that I do not want to sex with them.
And in similar handsy stranger situations to yours I know I’ve had reactions which are full of my socialized “be nice and don’t cause a first and don’t hurt any feeeeelings” bullshit.
I remember while waiting to be served in a pub once and a tipsy guy started hitting on me and ignored my politely informing him that I had a boyfriend and decided that totally acceptable thing to do would be to put both arms right round me from behind and pin my arms and then to lean all his weight down so I was basically doubled over.
Even at this point I was so bloody brainwashed that I was thinking “I should elbow him in the groin now, or kick his shins or hurt him somehow, but no he’s not actually hurt me or groped me properly yet it wouldn’t be a fair reaction….”.
And also the simple fact is, I don’t WANT to hurt people! I don’t like hurting people and it’s a difficult thing for me to force myself to do. I shouldn’t have to force myself to commit violence that I am completely uncomfortable with in order to ensure that my boundaries are respected.
It’s what pisses me off when mansplainy types try to argue that women should learn self defence or carry mace (huh great for me since it’s illegal in the UK, which pisses me off no end). Because no-one should be threatening me and violating my boundaries to the point where I need to use violence!
This too. Most rape happens between people who know each other. Most people don’t want to hurt their friends/family/significant others/coworkers, and between that and the shock and all the training that women should never be physically aggressive it’s not surprising that “freeze” is a more common response than “attempt to beat the shit out of”.
Not to mention the fact that if a woman did respond to attempted rape with violence, dudes like the one quoted would immediately respond with “Why would she overreact like that? He wasn’t actually hurting her.”
This too. Yes, rape is terrible, it can also be a huge shock, especially considering the huge cultural meme of rape being something that only happens to certain types of people and then all of a sudden it’s happening to you. Someone you trusted is doing it to you. Honestly, I’d probably need a minute to process. Like, what, they don’t think people go into shock when they get in a car accident either? I know I did in mine. I was fine minus some bruising, but couldn’t move because my brain was still all “what the fuck just happened?” It seriously took me YEARS to even be able to classify my ex’s habit of pushing boundaries as just plain not cool, and another year to consider the fact that maybe his boundary pushing behavior could have been indicative of something worse. We never made it to PIV sex (LDR) and I can honestly say I am SO fucking glad cause lord, it was bad enough it took a lot of pushing hands away and saying “no, seriously, STOP” just for unwanted touching.
@dualityheart ALL the fluffy animal hugs, if wanted. That’s terrible. I’m so sorry.
Again, one of the things that this demonstrates is privilege. In order to be confused as to why someone might freeze during a rape, you pretty much have to have led a life in which you’ve never felt physically threatened by another person in a sexual way.*
Men sometimes freeze when they’re being raped or sexually assaulted too, because it’s a natural response to shock.
(I’ve been in a bad car accident too. I was able to get myself out of the worse of the immediate danger and minimize the impact involved, but once the car stopped it took me a few minutes to get myself together and start figuring out how to get out of the car, because that’s just how shock works.)
* Note that men absolutely can be threatened in a sexual way, but our clueless friend clearly does not understand this. The general cultural misunderstanding of this probably makes men even more likely to go into shock and freeze than they might otherwise when attacked – I know that’s what happened to my ex when he was raped, and he then had several friends and family members express surprise and suspicion as to how a man who’s 6ft3 could be physically overpowered and why didn’t he just fight back? Rape culture is poisonous.
@Cassandrasays
Very much with you on your point about male rape victims.
I ended up nearly asploding on a forum that I used to frequent about a thread on a recent case in the UK of two guys who basically frogmarched a young boy away from supermarket, across a crowded shopping street into a big department store and raped him there somewhere out of sight.
All the comments were about “Why didn’t he just scream for help?” “Why didn’t he try to fight them or get away?” etc etc.
I then pointed out that all these questions were essentially victim blaming and got flamed and negged lots by people who were going “We’re just trying to understand!” and “It just seems odd!”.
Fume.
BINGO. When I did finally push a handsy guy off of me when I was on a bus in Sweden (the supposed feminist haven, though the guy was British, and I’m American, so I guess that means handsy douchebags are an international phenomenon) it took me a long time to get to that point because when I’d pushed guys off me before it was always “geez, you don’t have to get so angry” etc. I was lucky that one of his friends apologized for the dude’s behavior immediately and the other friends seemed to mostly follow suit, but there was still that hint of me being the bitch who’d ruined everyone else’s good time (the guys were there, they said, to celebrate Handsy McHanderson’s 30th birthday), and one of the guys mumbled “come on, he’s drunk, you didn’t have to push him THAT hard”.
If you fight back it’s wrong, if you don’t, it’s also wrong. Lose – lose.
Forgot to mention, in regards to not wanting to hurt people, I also didn’t want to hurt this Handsy McHanderson, and the insidious, cultural meme of “it’s not really HURTING you” about unwanted touching made it even harder for me to justify my actions to myself. All I knew was I couldn’t spend a minute longer in the same seat as that guy – everything in me was screaming “Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!”
And all these dudes know that they were pushing people’s boundaries at some point or another and violating some women or another. And somewhere out there there is the ideological voice in their heads that says that was totally ok. This rage against obtaining consent isn’t an accident- these guys know they are in the wrong, and they don’t want a clear and concrete way to make sure they stay in the right.
They’re aware of and counting on the fact that people tend to freeze when they’re in shock too.
Besides which, it’s not like men don’t know about freezing when in danger, even if they haven’t faced a sexual threat. I don’t think I know any dude who hasn’t had that moment when he froze after being confronted by some dude bigger than him out of the blue.
Then again we’re talking about a dude who’s arguing that since some women freeze when being raped, clearly being raped is just having uncomfortable sex. It actually makes the usual MRA refrain that women call rape after having unsatisfactory sex more palatable. Congrats ay_ch, you’ve made the rest of your Bowel Movement look marginally better.
When it comes to hurting someone – damn, I would want to hurt Handsy McHanderson and all his ilk. It’s not “I don’t want to hurt anyone” for me, it’s simple disbelief that I could and fear that they’d hurt me worse. Where’s Darth Vader’s remote-neck-squeezing power when you need it?
@The Kitteh’s Unpaid Help – I prefer Darth Vader’s “hack at your neck with the thin bit” method. 🙂
Sorry, I just LOVE Eddie Izzard!!!
And sometimes it’s not even about being afraid of what else will happen. If I’m on the bus and someone grabs my butt, I’m not going to think ‘he might beat me up’. (Some people might think that, but I’ve been socialized in such ways that it would not occur to me to be actually afraid of that happening.) But what I will think is ‘it must have been an accident…maybe he didn’t mean it. I wouldn’t want to have a total freakout on some guy whose hand slipped!’ It’s like, I have to be *really really justified* in my own mind before I will feel like I’m ‘in the right’.
I managed to escape that sort of socialisation, more or less. I don’t think the best of strangers, generally. I don’t assume innocence or harmless motives. Someone comes on the train reeking of beer? I move. (Though the stink of beer or cigarettes are enough to make me move regardless of other considerations.) Someone’s making a racket on the tram, or acting oddly? (This includes you, O talent-free buskers!) I change to the next one.
And yet in the hours I travel most, I’ve had no harassment; the trains are full of people going to or from work (except on school holidays, PUKE PUKE PUKE) and they’re all reading, or talking, or listening to their headphones, or just dozing, same as I am. I’m mostly relaxed in workaday travel, but I don’t feel like I need any justification in reacting.
“Hand slipped” or “taking up more than his half of the seat” gets “accidental spasmodic elbow shove in ribs”. If it’s a genuine slip he’ll move, if not, he knows he’s unwelcome. 😉
Mary: Zanana, most women want to marry. Men don’t want to marry sluts. Do the math.
You have two propositions there. Prove them: show the math.
Setting aside the problem of self-selecting groups, I’ve known a lot of men and women. I happen to have been lucky enough (time in Hollywood, time a machinist, 16 years in the Army, lived in several states, belong to social groups of varied membership, went to catholic schools, etc.) to have known a wide variety of people.
The one’s who wanted to marry, got married (male and female both). I saw, “sluts” get married. I saw, “good girls” get married. I saw some of them get divorced.
I can’t say as I saw a huge difference in the rates, for marriage, or divorce.
On a personal level, I don’t care how many partners my lovers have had. I’ve had partner who were inexperienced, and partners who were a lot more experienced than I was.
I’m not interested in the “purity” of their bodies, but the content of their character. Who they’ve fucked doesn’t have anything to do with that. It’s not what goes into a persons mouth which makes them unclean, but what comes out of their mouths.
Chuckee: I did not use the word “people”. I used the word “pig”, and for a reason. The word pig carries a number of connotations.
Precisely, and you chose to use it. You chose to use it as a blanket statement about women who are raped when intoxicated.
And you choose to double down on it: Irrespective of whether you use the word pig or criminal, are you suggesting that a pig or criminal is as likely to lie as anyone else? Are you suggesting that I should withhold judgement, irrespective of a person’s prior history? Criminal records are recorded for a reason. Pigs may not have formal records, but they do have attitudes and behaviors upon which they can and should be judged.
On what basis are you making this condemnation. All we have, from the hypothetical presented, is a woman who says she was raped when drunk.
This isn’t such an unusual state of affairs (for women to be raped when intoxicated). You, however, seem to reflexively accuse the woman of criminal behavior; just because she reported that she was raped.
No sense that she might have civil rights, and the presumption of innocence, just a the man might. Nope, she’s a pig/criminal.
(diogenes, are you paying attention? This is an MRA, in the wild, making his arguments).
Jilly: Stop the doubletalk. If both parties are drunk then they are both incompetent to make any rational judgements or to act as witnesses or to make a complaint.
Are you therefore saying a drunk person cannot be raped?
The rapists of the world would be thrilled if that were true.
By extension if I get drunk, and choose to drive home I am not responsible for driving drunk, and if I do damage to people, or property, I am free and clear of culpability.
Same for committing robbery, or murder, or arson, or…
But I suspect you are Pell.
I have to wonder what Pell gets out of it? I suspect it’s that he wants to be rude and foul-mouthed and “get back” and women/feminists for something.
He also wants to make women believe they are worthless; which is why the air of expertise is so often his shtick. That he is so bad at it, and so quickly spotted, is why he is no longer managing the masterful comedic arcs of yore.
Lo, how the mighty have fallen.
I rand a comment of SunshineMary through, and while the actual equilibrium was jibberish, there was a pretty good piece of intermediate:
How do I jerk reaction move my knees. Take care of my female emotions, why retain some humility and gratitude.
The other one I ran through led to this:
Each trial course involuntary child (rank;
It started as I’ve even tried conversing with some of these women, gently trying to get them to see that promiscuity and careerism in one’s 20 (I didn’t put it in those terms, of course) s has the potential to lead to involuntary childless spinsterhood, but they deny that this was the cause of their problems.
In the middle we had a good time:
They see some of the wonderful orgy of these women I （rank 20 in each trial course did they not involuntary child ） and and try to get the conversation caused spinsterhood, but it takes their problems but they had refused.
Pells fall was about the width of a hydrogen atom, if that.