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MRA: “In case no feminists show up for the debate, ask a few MRA’s to … present the feminist’s point of view. Let’s not turn this … into a MRA circlejerk.”

You remember that big MRA-vs-feminists debate in Vancouver we were talking about the other day? The one later this month? In the car dealership? About whether or not feminism has “gone to too  far?” Oh, and which doesn’t, so far, seem to involve any actual feminists?

In case no feminists decide to show up to a debate organized and moderated by MRAs, promoted only on MRA websites, and taking place in a car dealership run by an MRA, one Reddit MRA has a suggestion:

 

 

Yep, he really did just suggest that MRAs debate themselves, and then, with no sense of irony, say  “Let’s not turn this debate into a MRA circlejerk.”

It’s hard to imagine a more perfect encapsulation of the Men’s Rights movement than this. MRAs are always eager to debate the imaginary feminists that live only in their own heads. Straw feminists are really the only feminists they know.

You might also enjoy TyphonBlue’s heroic special-snowflaking in the Reddit thread.

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Anathema
8 years ago

Those reviews are certainly, um, interesting.

I have say, though, that I’m most amused by the rather odd exchange comments on one of the positive reviews after someone accused the person who wrote the review of being one of the people who worked at the one of the people who worked at the dealership (“Chris”), and then Chris showed up in the comments to defend himself. (Insulting the people counts as defending yourself, right?)

Hey, this is for reviews, not advertising. You’re a joke Chris, you wouldn’t sell me a car?? You tried your best when I was there.

Just a tip, no one is interested in your divorce stories either, but I guess anything to keep prospective customers distracted.

someguy bored with your schtick
someguy bored with your schtick
8 years ago

David, it’s really appalling how little you know about so much.

While I know it’s true that you fight the good fight against straw mens rightsers every day, and in your pants, it is not true that all or even most mens rightsers or those at /r/mensrights fight against straw feminists.

If you would read the silly forum with head removed from butt this time, you’ll see that there are many comments and posts about feminist arguments, and many corrections in those posts to people strawmanning the arguments or worse.

The other day you completely failed to understand that the rules of this debate are the basic rules of most debates, including those at Intelligence Squared — I am not surprised you didn’t recognize Intelligence, squared, it seems very typical.

In fact though, as many forensic debates including the Lincoln Douglas debates, teams have to be prepared to argue both sides.

That’s what makes it interesting. That’s what makes it worthwhile.

As I have said, your schtick here is just awful, putrid stuff, and much of that is specifically because you refuse to treat people that disagree with you as humans, and you fail to respect them or listen to what they have to say.

There is a person strawmanning here David, and it is you, and it is why your blog is read inside the feministosphere where it is cheered on, and not many places elsewhere.

Like Nixon going to China, we have to respect and learn and talk to the people we disagree with, that is how progress is made and humanity comes together.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

There is a person strawmanning here David, and it is you, and it is why your blog is read inside the feministosphere where it is cheered on, and not many places elsewhere.

Wait, I thought that the terrible, awful problem with this blog and the reason David needs to dance for you like a monkey is that it’s taken too seriously by too many journalists and other important people, like the SPLC.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

Like Nixon going to China, we have to respect and learn and talk to the people we disagree with, that is how progress is made and humanity comes together.

Tell you what, the day MRAs stop arguing that rape should be legal, and stop endorsing bills that deny domestic violence protections to men and women, is the day that we will come together and learn.

Since their entire movement is based on hatred, that day will sadly probably never come.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

because you refuse to treat people that disagree with you as humans,

Says the man whose entire movement is about glorifying rapists and child abusers.

Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
8 years ago

Damn it yes. David should not argue against “straw mens rightsers”. Straw men deserve their rights just as much as do human beings made of flesh and blood.

Look at how straw men are treated in the media! Take the Scarecrow from the Batman movies. Not only is he portrayed as a criminal, he’s shown to be a regular man wearing a mask! As if the true nature of straw was merely a personal affectation, as opposed to the core of a straw man’s identity. And don’t get me started on that straw-ist fiction, Straw Dogs.

I have completely lost track of where I was going. Long story short Mr. Schtickforbrains is right, straw men rightseres are not to be questioned. Oh, believe me, I’m sure his head he is scratching as his thoughts are busy – busy I tell you! – hatching!

Fembot
8 years ago

WTF Someguy? You got your projection splattered all over me. Excuse me, I need to go wash myself off now.

princessbonbon
8 years ago

In fact though, as many forensic debates including the Lincoln Douglas debates, teams have to be prepared to argue both sides.

Uh, no. This was not a high school debate competition. Never was intended to be that way.

Like Nixon going to China, we have to respect and learn and talk to the people we disagree with, that is how progress is made and humanity comes together.

There is your problem right there-MRAs do not believe women are people and they sure as hell do not respect our humanity. Why should I even bother respecting someone who thinks I should have my voice box removed? Or any of the gazillion and one horrific things they have said about me and my gender.

Go away.

cloudiah
8 years ago

@Bodsy, And what about the Scarecrow in The Wizard of Oz? Made out to be a clumsy idiot, and even set on fire! Only Dorothy is any good at anything — misandry!

aworldanonymous
8 years ago

It’s a pity Vancouver’s on the other side of the country from me, t’would have been fun to go watch and throw bits of popcorn at the “debaters”.

cloudiah
8 years ago

I think JtO and Paul E. should stand in for Obama and Romney, and GWW and typhonblue for Biden and Ryan at their debates. I’d watch that.

amandajane5
amandajane5
8 years ago

I’m going to have to step in here and take one for my man the Scarecrow of Oz. While a stuffed man, he was nothing but polite and considerate to all beings that he encountered, be they made of tin, meat, air, porcelain, or wood, with pumpkin head or clockwork insides. While a strawman, he was a worthwhile person. I can’t say the same of boring stick guy.

opium4themasses
opium4themasses
8 years ago

I will continue to express my exasperation at the MRM attacking obvous allies, assuming their goals aren’t disingenuous. (that last bit is the rub, eh?)

Rights are not zero-sum.

Some guy. What have feminists done to limit your freedoms?

amandajane5
amandajane5
8 years ago

Ha! Wasn’t meant as a response to you cloudiah, the actual Scarecrow of Oz (non-movie version) is a known and respected leader who solves problems by thinking them through.

Fembot
8 years ago

A VIndication on The Sexual RIghts of Men

1. Women shall not be allowed to divorce their husbands for any reason. However, the man may obtain a divorce if his wife is unfaithful, gains weight, or stops performing her wifely duties (sex, cooking, and cleaning, specifically).

2. All single women are sexually available to all men. If a woman is single, there is something wrong with her, therefore as penance she should be required to put out to any man who is interested in her for the greater good. No man shall be forced to endure involuntary celibacy.

3. If a man is to be convicted of rape, the woman must show extensive injuries she obtained whilst fighting him off. These include but are not limited to broken or sprained limbs, cuts, and large amounts of bruises. Minimal bruising is not sufficient to obtain a conviction.

4. Reproductive choice lies solely with the man. All pregnant women will be required to undergo paternity testing. The father of the baby will be notified, and it will be his decision to abort, keep the child, or place it up for adoption. Women who attempt to reproduce without a man’s consent will be prosecuted.

5. Once a woman is married, her person is now the property of her husband. He has paid for all sexual and reproductive rights, and they are transferred to him at marriage. He is therefore entitled to sex at all times. There is no such thing as marital rape.

6. The testimony of no less than THREE women will be required to conflict with the testimony of ONE man. As such, women are only three/fifths of a human being.

7. Women will not vote, so that they can free of the burden and better focus on looking hot, putting out and raising children.

8. No woman will ever require payment from a man. It is illegal for women to earn, spend, handle, or carry currency. Accounts at supermarkets will be paid monthly by the husband.

7. Any woman not married by the age of 27 will face the choice of deportation or permanent residence in a FEMA Work Rehabilitation Center.

8. The voiceboxes of infant girls will be removed at birth. This is to protect her and all others from the vile disease known as feminism.

8. Age of consent laws are misandry. Men may marry any woman of any age, as long as she is not OVER the age of 27.

I made this up, though it is a collection of things I have read from MRAs on the internets.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Seconded, amandajane!

Boringstick is like the fail of fails from Oz – no brain, no heart and no courage.

Nepenthe
Nepenthe
8 years ago

In fact though, as many forensic debates including the Lincoln Douglas debates, teams have to be prepared to argue both sides.

Wow. You seem to think that personal blogs are journalism and that a sport for high schoolers is rigorous intellectual exercise. I can’t even come up with a clever insult, I’m just dumbfounded by that level of willful naivete.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

The other day you completely failed to understand that the rules of this debate are the basic rules of most debates, including those at Intelligence Squared — I am not surprised you didn’t recognize Intelligence, squared, it seems very typical.

lol. I love it when someone who doesn’t get a joke uses their misunderstanding to insult someone else’s intelligence. It’s always so delicious.

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
8 years ago

Do you think there is reason to hope that that might have been a flounce? I shall hope without reason if necessary.

Pam
Pam
8 years ago

lol. I love it when someone who doesn’t get a joke uses their misunderstanding to insult someone else’s intelligence. It’s always so delicious.

That’s reminding me of the thread where the rebuttal to “men are given more truck in society than women” was that there’s no law that prevents women from buying trucks, if men have more trucks it’s because they buy more trucks whereas women buy more small cars or minivans, and nobody is gonna just give you a truck, you have to buy it, etc.
And yes, the d00d was totally serious.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

Oh man. You can find the most ridiculous, misogynist shit linked to approvingly in r/mr. I’ve been browsing it much more than usual today. Anyone who needs a good laugh, check this shit by typhonblue out:

http://www.avoiceformen.com/men/how-a-limp-dick-can-save-the-world/

Choice quotes:

It’s amazing how much human male sexuality resembles a game. You have immediate feedback when you’re failing or have failed, you have levels of difficulty and you have a reward at the end (the best in the animal kingdom). And games teach valuable experiences. In this case human male sexuality allows women the opportunity to lay down a emotional map of how to deal with rejection: with challenge, with unpredictability.

This is basically exactly rape culture.

This is the basis of all achievement. It enables women to liberate themselves from a passive identity defined by being desired, either sexually or socially, and see themselves primarily in terms of how they choose to act.

This makes women immune to social systems that tell them what to do to be desirable or what not to do. This makes women immune to outside forces that very explicitly want to control their behavior. Foot binding, corsetry, victim ideologies that teach women to view themselves as helpless in every situation. Uncontrollable, unpredictable, challenging male sexuality elevates women from passive recipients of whatever life thrusts into them into active participants in creating life.

So if we’re going to talk about human male potency it should be spoken of in terms of the type of sexuality male humans actually have, not the artificial sexuality they are expected to have. In that sense male potency is about its effect on human female psychology, it’s elevation of the human female from livestock to co-creator. That’s human male potency.

tl;DR: learning how to please men sexually elevates women above livestock.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

@Pam: that was second greatest fail by a troll I’ve seen on this blog. The best was NWOslave’s “Spanish and Cyrillic use the same characters.”

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

The FeMRAs are an odd bunch. I keep feeling like they’d be a lot happier if they’d just find themselves a Gor-based BSDM group. Or invent a new religion that practices literal penis worship.

Pam
Pam
8 years ago

@Tulgey Logger
As soon as owlyslave’s fingers hit the keyboard, you know there’s an epic fail just waiting to happen.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

Oh, and I found that TB article here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/102xqq/equalitys_a_bitch_aint_it_girls/c69zz7m

Note the strawman of feminism-as-entitlement-complex going unchallenged Some Guy! We saw a very similar argument from Sasha just a couple Manboobz posts ago. And for people without their heads up their bottoms, enjoy* the biotruth rape apologetics in the Angry Harry “Women and Chimps” article linked approvingly by truthman2000. Note also how Gareth321 gets downvoted for calling it out. Honestly, the idea that we’d need to misrepresent MRAs to make them look misogynistic is just hilarious.

*where enjoy has a value of “either laugh at its absurdity or despair at its horrendousness.”

Shaenon
8 years ago

Those car dealership reviews are my new favorite thing. I like how the owner gradually gets better at writing fake positive reviews for himself. Eventually he figures out that no one is buying the gushing five-star reviews, so he starts writing mildly enthusiastic three-star reviews…which everyone still calls him out on. It’s like a little epistolary novel.

Gokkun Gooch
Gokkun Gooch
8 years ago

You realize that it’s possible to play devil’s advocate very effectively, yes? Debate teams often do this to keep their skills sharp, and in such instances there is nothing approaching an “echo chamber”- after all, if there were, it wouldn’t be very good practice, you dig? As a matter of fact, I have a degree in Rhetoric, and the principle of devil’s advocate stretches back to Plato’s Republic. It has helped shape modern-day politics, and can provide a framework for the skeptical mind in a homogenous environment.

I have confidence this debate can proceed just fine.

Fembot
8 years ago

I tried to read Typhon Blue’s article but it made no sense to me. WTF is with MRAs and their boners? It’s all they care about.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

The sad thing is that Typhon Blue is a woman. Who apparently worships boners with a zeal that most religions only wish they could get their followers to display towards their god of choice.

Fembot
8 years ago

Yeah, I know TB is a woman, which just makes her article even more baffling. MRAs are going to let a woman pontificate about their boners? Whatev.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

As long as what she’s saying is that boners are the center of the universe, I guess?

Sharon Seemins
Sharon Seemins
8 years ago

Oi, I keep forgetting the level of “intellect” on display here.

Ok then, guys. Assuming that mens rightsers are complete bumbling bigots. Why, then, are feminists so afraid to engage them in front of the public? Why the unbridled fear of letting things out into the open?

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

Gokkun Gooch wrote:

and the principle of devil’s advocate stretches back to Plato’s Republic.

You mean the book where everyone but Socrates is used as a foil for how right Socrates is?

But hey. There’s nothing wrong with playing devil’s advocate. It’s just that we have zero faith in the Men’s Rights “Movement” to produce an effective understanding of feminism. They basically live off of thinking that their misunderstanding of feminism is the enemy ascendant. Shit, even the self-described former feminist Elly Tams, who now contributes to AVfM, has apparently learned nothing about feminism despite what she claims is a lifetime around it.

Yes, it’s possible. No, it’s not likely.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

Oi, I keep forgetting the level of “intellect” on display here.

Why, are you too busy sharing semens? Share some of your brilliant intellect with us instead, Sharon.

Ok then, guys. Assuming that mens rightsers are complete bumbling bigots. Why, then, are feminists so afraid to engage them in front of the public? Why the unbridled fear of letting things out into the open?

lol yeah, why ever would feminists be reluctant to go to a public forum with a bunch of hatebeards who think feminists misandrically rule the world through VAWA and are akin to Solanas? I wouldn’t want to be an acknowledged feminist anywhere near anyone who could comfortably associate with this kind of rhetoric. Futrelle’s debate with Paul Elam over blogs went dysfunctional enough even without the possibility of a virulently hostile crowd/lone vigilante for the cause.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

The idea that MRAs represent a group of emotionally detached skeptics when it comes to feminism is making me snicker.

Sharon Seemins
Sharon Seemins
8 years ago

If feminists are in the right, surely it should be easy to prove it in front of an audience, yes?

Or do you all have so little faith in your ideology?

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

It’ll be just like debate team, in high school! Except they all have a seething grudge against the side they think rules the world and contributes to its destruction.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I dunno, I think my high school debate team would have wiped the floor with these guys.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

If feminists are in the right, surely it should be easy to prove it in front of an audience, yes?

Or do you all have so little faith in your ideology?

Have you ever heard of the Gish Gallop? Do you really think any given debate is so cut and dry as “the right side wins”? Your superior intellect is coming up a little short, Mademoiselle Seemins.

ShadetheDruid
ShadetheDruid
8 years ago

..hatebeards.. – Tulgey Logger

For some reason, i’m picturing a guy with a beard made of hornets.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I read that as Hatebreed. Must stop listening to music while reading blogs.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

Well, it’s like a regular beard, but hatred! I guess. I do find the image of a hornet hatebeard unreasonably amusing and I hope this is a thing.

The Stepford Knife
The Stepford Knife
8 years ago

The problem with a debate like this isn’t the title- “This House Believes That…” is commonly used to begin debate titles. Nor is it the playing of Devil’s advocate- as others have mentioned, that is common practice in debating societies. The problem is that debates, even when held between senior academics and at institutions with house rules, can often still turn very ugly and can even feel unsafe. I’ve seen this at a debate on complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) which was held at King’s College London- the details were posted up on a lot of alternative medicine blogs and forums, and a lot of CAM supporters turned up to (literally) shout down their opponents. At the end I had wanted to talk to one of them, the physicist and writer SImon Singh, but I couldn’t because a woman was standing between us and literally screaming at him about her claims that her mother had died of cancer because the NHS denied her homeopathic treatment, as if Dr Singh had killed her himself.

MRAs remind me a lot of CAM supporters in that their arguments are always very emotionally charged, they take all criticism very personally, and they actively misrepresent their opponents. While I say that playing Devil’s advocate in itself isn’t wrong, there is a problem with MRAs doing it in they wouldn’t be representing feminism, they’d be representing their own warped idea of what they’ve convinced themselves it is. Just as CAM supporters argue that all practitioners of evidence-based/Western medicine know cancer can be cured with nutrition alone but want to withhold THE TRUTH because pharmaceutical companies are bribing them to, and because governments are bribing them to keep schtum so cancer can be used as a means of population control, MRAs argue that feminists are fighting for their right to avoid having careers and to be given free houses, clothes and trinkets by men. Both the CAM supporters and the MRAs are wrong but they’re so blinded by emotion that they see the worst in their opponents and eventually get paranoid and start developing conspiracy theories about them.

The clue here is in the suggested slogan “the notion that women are adults”. Of course feminists are fighting *against* being infantilised, from technology companies deciding women won’t buy their products unless they make them in Barbie-pink, to being treated like they need a man to change tyres, rescue them from spiders, and of course provide everything for them. I can just see an MRA speaking against the motion, with something along the lines of “Feminism hasn’t gone too far because my husband still hasn’t bought me a pink convertible even after months of asking him pretty please and crying and stamping my little feet and refusing to make him sandwiches” in a mocking high-pitched voice.

So many MRA arguments contradict themselves- when they don’t even understand their own aims and objectives, can anyone honestly expect them to fully understand anyone else’s?

Kakanian
Kakanian
8 years ago

>If feminists are in the right, surely it should be easy to prove it in front of an audience, yes?

Uh… it’s sorta like sending a Psychiatrists into a congregation of Scientologists.

M Dubz
M Dubz
8 years ago

If feminists are in the right, surely it should be easy to prove it in front of an audience, yes?

We’re already engaging with you on the internet, the most public forum of all. And here, pants are optional. I’m not willing to put in any more effort than that.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

There are places one has to wear pants? No way I’m going there. Not unless there’s hornet beards to see, and maybe a giant twine ball.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

Assuming that mens rightsers are complete bumbling bigots. Why, then, are feminists so afraid to engage them in front of the public? Why the unbridled fear of letting things out into the open?

Why wouldn’t a woman go to the world’s shadiest car dealership to talk in front of a crowd who thinks it should be legal to rape her?

Some mysteries solve themselves.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

If feminists are in the right, surely it should be easy to prove it in front of an audience, yes?

Rape and child abuse are wrong. Bam! Proved. And I didn’t need to be shouted at by a crowd for several hours to prove it.

Happy
Happy
8 years ago

@ The Stepford Knife

You have eloquently and wonderfully described MRAs and the futility of debating with them.

Muchos Kudos to you.

A wonderful day to you and yours.

Naira
Naira
8 years ago

<blockquoteIf feminists are in the right, surely it should be easy to prove it in front of an audience, yes?

Or do you all have so little faith in your ideology?

I believe feminism has already gone in front of an audience…it’s called decades of scholarly articles, books, essays, and conference talks in fields like sociology, anthropology, philosophy, and others. (yeah, I am in the social sciences, so I’m not all that well-informed on feminism in the physical sciences).

Various views on feminism have been peer-reviewed, critiqued up one side and down the other, and explored new directions for decades in academia. MRAs are too busy beating the Valerie Solanis drum and ignoring thousands of in-depth discussions of feminist ideologies.

And why won’t these people come out of their ivory tower? For the same reason that archaeologists ignore Erich van Daniken.