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a voice for men antifeminism evil women harassment johntheother kitties misogyny MRA narcissism

The debate is on! And off! And on again! Then really, really on!

Have you heard about the big debate in Vancouver? In the wake of the recent hubbub over Men’s Rights posters in that fair city, one woman thought it might be a good idea for there to be a public debate over some of the issues raised by the posters.

I’ll let A Voice for Men’s JohnTheOther explain it, in his adorably poncy way:

Has feminism gone too far? …

That is the question asked in September of 2012, by a woman of integrity and courage. She posited this question as the premise of a public debate. It was to be discussed by three individuals from the contention that yes, feminism has gone too far, and three individuals arguing that no, feminism has not gone too far.

But, alas, this debate was not to be.

Unfortunately, following the announcement of this scheduled debate on the social networking site Facebook, that woman was rewarded for her attempt at public discussion by a torrent of abuse and threats. Some individuals apparently did not want a debate. Not only did they not want to participate, they wanted nobody else to either. Under the weight of abuse and threats, that woman whose integrity and courage moved her to propose a public discussion – cancelled the event.

What JohnTheOther doesn’t mention is that the “torrent of abuse and threats” apparently came not from feminists, as one might assume from the way he’s phrased it, but from Men’s Rightsers, who were evidently so excited by the prospect of having a debate with actual feminists that, in their enthusiasm, they couldn’t help but harass the organizer once it became clear the event wasn’t going to be organized in the same exact way that they might have organized it, if as MRAs they ever organized anything.

As the original organizer of the cancelled event explained to Jezebel:

I took the event down because of threats I had received from MRA members when I told them I was thinking of cancelling the event/changing the question. Having my Facebook account linked to here has reduced my safety from these men, who didn’t have my personal information as I was speaking with them over email. I have now had to cancel my FB profile which impacts my job seriously. Luckily I am in England right now so am safe.

Later, someone claiming to be her posted a comment on A Voice for Men saying the threats had come from “people claiming both sides of the debate.” The AVFMers downvoted her.

But fear not, debate fans! The debate is ON again! With the help of A Voice for Men, the blog A Father’s Story, and the East Vancouver Debating Society, a heretofore unknown organization which apparently has been conjured up just for this occasion, a “Has Feminism Gone Too Far” debate will take place later this month. At a car dealership, for some reason.

The debate format has apparently been designed to be as confusing as possible:

 The debate format will be three speakers presenting arguments affirming the debate proposition and three speakers presenting arguments against the proposition. Each speaker will have 5 minutes to present an opening argument, alternating between for- and against postions. Following opening arguments, each speaker will have 5 minutes to address presented arguments. A third round of discussion will allow 3 minutes to address counter arguments, and final statements will be formatted within 3 minutes per speaker, for a total of four rounds of discussion for all speakers.

Following the scheduled debate, speakers will address questions and commentary from audience and observers for 55 minutes.

After which there will be an additional 15 minutes of calisthenics.

And then everyone will buy a car.

So far they don’t seem to have found any feminist debaters eager and willing to spend a nice Sunday afternoon in a car dealership getting yelled at by angry dudes.

Instead, they have devoted their energy to defining what exactly feminism means, because how can you have a debate about feminism if Men’s Rightsers don’t define the term first?

Someone called Sasha offered this definition:

If “the National Organization For Women, the largest American self-identified “feminist” organization, defines feminism as “The radical notion that women are human beings,” then I’d say MRAs have the radical notion that women are grown-ups.

I believe that feminism is simply a selfish, solipsistic creed, which exploits a natural tendency in some men and women towards narcissism.

The result has been a massive epidemic of narcissism across society, across the world (1) particularly amongst college students (2) and researchers agree this will have profound consequences for society.

One study showed that use of the phrase ‘I deserve’ in publications had increased 2000% between 1975 and 2005.

The reason that feminism doesn’t deliver happiness (3) to women is because happiness is dependent on ‘doing for others’.

The reason it doesn’t deliver it to men is because, being a selfish creed, it doesn’t recognise the sacrifices men make (from time with their families all the way to their lives) to support their families, communities and even countries, and in fact punishes and disincentivises such sacrifice.

All of this has gotten us at Man Boobz so excited that we – in conjunction with the Chicago Debatalogical Cooperative – have decided to have a debate of our own. And it’s happening right this very minute. Right here on your computer! The format is a couple of YouTube videos I found.

Here a representative of the Men’s Rights movement will argue the pro position: “Feminism has gone too far.”

And here is the rebuttal from the feminist side.

Who’s the winner? We all are!

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Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
8 years ago

Uh, Some Guy Who Needs to Start His Own Blog:

I hear ‘antimanboobz’ is up for grabs.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

I hear ‘antimanboobz’ is up for grabs.

OH, SNAP.

Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
8 years ago

Hi, Hellkell! Doing well – just had a nightmare week at uni, but I’m back on top of things now.

someguy bored with your schtick
someguy bored with your schtick
8 years ago

I am not antimanboobz, I enjoy David Futrelle’s writing at Salon and elsewhere. I just think David owes it to his readers, and to Journalism to be clear as to how Manboobz should be received. As journalistic endeavor, or as a spoof site?

Shiraz
Shiraz
8 years ago

Do you know what spoof means?

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
8 years ago

I think we should have a blogger ethics panel on this matter right away.
Icanhascheeseburger has no journalistic standards whatsoever, even worse than manboobz, and people just keep linking and linking and linking. Dreadful!

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
8 years ago

someguy, are you claiming that you are so dense you cannot figure it out from the title, or are you pretending that everyone else on the planet is?

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

I’ll say it again, v e r y s l o w l y. How is it that everyone else here can understand what “Misogyny. I mock it” means, can read and comprehend the articles and comments, except you? Are you genuinely that stupid, or just wilfully stupid (which amounts to the same thing)?

How on earth do you manage to type with your head so far up your arse? It must cause terrible back strain.

Nepenthe
Nepenthe
8 years ago

@Pam

And he stated, in (I believe it was) The Myth of Male Power, “Unemployment to a man is the psychological equivalent of rape to a woman”

As evidenced by the millions of men with PTSD as a result of being brutally given a pink slip.

Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
8 years ago

@ schtickhead – You know perfectly fucking well what this site is, and what it’s about. You know what you’re reading and why it was written and how its content was assembled. You understand this and so does everyone else who reads it. You’re trying to cast doubt by implication, but you’ve picked an angle that fools precisely nobody. Okay? You tried, you failed, find a new hobby horse. Or a new schtick, or whatever.

Shiraz
Shiraz
8 years ago

Gosh, where did he go?

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

I am not antimanboobz, I enjoy David Futrelle’s writing at Salon and elsewhere. I just think David owes it to his readers, and to Journalism to be clear as to how Manboobz should be received. As journalistic endeavor, or as a spoof site?

Personally, I’m still waiting to decide whether you’re a spoof or not. What were those “enormous,” “transparent” differences between David’s post and John the Other’s?

Was it the calisthenics? The car buying thing? Those were jokes, bro. I’ve read both and cannot see what you’re on about. For a dude who’s super-worked-up about transparency and integrity, you’ve done fuck-all to even show what your complaint is besides some vague shit and the thing about Ruth getting threats from both sides (which was accounted for in the OP here).

aworldanonymous
8 years ago

@Shiraz

Even though it’s a bit late, I’m going to take a few sips of whisky and then read through the comments again, see if I can make some sense of what schtickler is saying.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Some git’s like dog planks, he really is. (Dog planks – term coined by a friend, a combination of ‘thick as two short planks’ and ‘dumb as dog shit’.)

katz
8 years ago

I hear ‘antimanboobz’ is up for grabs.

It saddens me beyond words that antimanboobz hasn’t updated since the beginning of August, and then only to report something from months earlier as breaking news.

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
8 years ago

Yeah, this seems like a fair debate. On one side you have proponents of feminism and on the other you have a bunch of crazed dudes who are (in Elam`s own words) sexually aroused at the thought of making feminists suffer pain.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Not to mention being aroused by children and wanting sympathy for pedophiles.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

When I picture Some Guy posting, I like to imagine him whispering fiercely into his mustache: “For Journalism!”

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

The funny thing is that MRAs will probably interpret the fact that most feminists aren’t super enthusiastic about spending an afternoon having abuse screamed at them by angry dudes as a sign that feminists don’t really believe in and therefore can’t defend our ideas about gender relations, whereas in fact it’s a sign that most feminists think MRAs are too irrational to be worth debating, and also they don’t want the assembled angry dudes to know their names and what they look like in case said angry dudes decided to track them down later with the intent to do something nastier than just yelling at them.

Basically what I’m saying is the fact that people think you’re unpleasant too be around and potentially dangerous is not a sign that your ideas must be superior.

hippodameia8527
hippodameia8527
8 years ago

“How on earth do you manage to type with your head so far up your arse? It must cause terrible back strain.”

I think he’s, how shall I put this, lapped himself.

Some Guy thinks he’s really got class,
but he writes with his head up his ass.
Then how can he see
all our “hypocrisy?”
I dunno – could the answer be grass?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Well that was some serious spelling fail. Sorry about that, everyone.

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
8 years ago

You make an important point, Cassandra. Does it make sense for any women to get anywhere near the abuser lobby? No. No it does not.

rjjspesh
rjjspesh
8 years ago

Uh, the only thing that a man could experience that is comparable to a woman being raped would be a man also being raped. DUH

someguy bored with your schtick
someguy bored with your schtick
8 years ago

“Someguy, think of it as a giant book of terrible, terrible quotations, with extensive annotations.

Or think of it as a giant red duck.

I don’t really care what you think of it.”

I think you’re purposely evasive David, and I think you know it’s because I have a very strong point.

You let this site be referenced as a source by the SPLC, by PZ Myers and elsewhere.

You need to be clear what this site is. Journalistic endeavor intended to expose misogyny, or bloviation.

Re: your writings at Salon and a decade having gone past. Check out this thing called Teh Googles.

David, what are you? Do you consider yourself a journalist? Do you follow any particular professional code of ethics? Which?

This post distorts this story as its been told by the major players in it. How did you do your reporting on it? Or are you just providing us opinion based on the Jezebel piece?

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

What’s the joy in long empty tirades
if you can’t tell a goof from a spade?
Some guy’s perplexed,
aggravated, and vexed:
for effort, I’d give him an “eh.”

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Some guy, what are you? Do you consider yourself a troll and member of the Abuser’s Lobby? Do you have any ethics?

Do you have anything better to do with your time than ask pointless questions and display your willful obtuseness to the world?

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
8 years ago

Clearly David you have a journalistic responsibility to make those peeps stop linking you or referencing your blog. I think schtickguy should start a Giant Red Duck blog to complain about all the bloggers who fail to live up to his unrealistic expectations.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

I hope some guy’s hassling other blogs and demanding they write what he wants. It’s the fair and balanced thing to do, after all.

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
8 years ago

That was a fairly popular style of trolling about ten years ago you may recall.

Anathema
8 years ago

Some Guy, there are a couple of things that may not have occurred to you:

1.) Not everything a journalist writes is necessarily journalism. After all, if a novelist decides to write a short story, they don’t suddenly stop being a novelist because one thing they wrote wasn’t a novel. Likewise, I don’t respond to every email I get from my dad saying, “If you’re a lawyer, then how come this email isn’t a legal brief?!”

2.) PZ Myers has referenced plenty of non-journalistic websites. So how is Mamboobz being referenced on Pharyngula proof that anyone thinks that it’s a journalistic website.

3.) Most people are able to figure out that a website with the tagline “misogyny: I mock it” that regularly posts pictures of kitties isn’t a journalistic website. Just because you don’t know how to figure out whether or not something qualifies as journalism without someone specifically telling you doesn’t mean that the rest of us can’t figure it out on our own.

reginaldgriswold
reginaldgriswold
8 years ago

Why are the two options hard-hitting journalism or bullshitting? Super weird.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

@someboringguy

Here is a present for you. With this and a bit of time and effort, you can make your own blog, and make it as “journalistic” by your own definitions as you like.

http://www.siteground.com/tutorials/blog/wordpress.htm

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

You need to be clear what this site is. Journalistic endeavor intended to expose misogyny, or bloviation.

lol false dichotomy much

Sorry, schome schtick, but you can’t spin your way out of the fact that there are years’ worth of posts here simply quoting and mocking actual statements by both figureheads and rank-and-file members of the MRM, giving full context through links. It’s pretty much exactly what David just said. The only thing we know that you don’t is how impotent are your empty demands that Futrelle be either a fully committed journalist (for free) or “admit” to being a purveyor of empty humor. Having an actual criticism might be a start, but then we all know you’re not here for that either: you’re here to try to silence the opposition. If you weren’t, we’d all already know you, you brave upholder of Truth and Justice, for vigorously opposing, say, the fact that AVfM lists Thomas Ball’s call to violence under “activism” on the front page.

I’d get started on the sheer disingenuousness of saying the SPLC articles cited Manboobz as a source, or that PZ Myers does anything more than point out and mock/criticize misogyny through Manboobz in exactly the way Manboobz does, but oh wait I just did and I’m going to sleep.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

@Hippodame – LOL!

@thebewilderness – “schtickguy should start a Giant Red Duck blog”

Are Giant Red Ducks the ones that have taken The Red Pill? Sort of like flamingos and shellfish?

cloudiah
8 years ago

Sticky made me so nervous I have now issued an official CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER on my blog.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

OT, but you can buy the substance that makes shellfish and flamingos pink in pill form. It’s yet another one of those “this pill will just make you healthier in many undefined ways, and we know this is true because blah blah woo” supplements.

http://products.mercola.com/astaxanthin/

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

So what I’m saying is, MRAs could very literally take the red (pink, but we could make the packaging red) pill if they want to. This is a potential goldmine – why has Elam not started selling this on his site yet?

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
8 years ago

OMG I’m oxidizing!
I live in the Pacific Northwest where we all have web feet and patches of rust. It is entirely bizarre to hear a local joke turned into a pitch for supplements.

someguy bored with your schtick
someguy bored with your schtick
8 years ago

Hey, how many links can I post in a comment before the spam filter is triggered?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

@thebewilderness

The entire Mercola site is hilarious. It’s a perfect illustration of the old cliche about a fool and their money being easily parted.

hippodameia8527
hippodameia8527
8 years ago

Thank you, The Kittehs’ Unpaid help! It’s kind of like Some Dumb Guy chose his name with limericks in mind – it scans beautifully. (Athough there are sone obvious rhymes with schtick that I’m trying to avoid. heh heh)

CassandraSays, how pink would it make them? A light blush or a bad sunburn?

katz
8 years ago

Cloudiah, looks watertight to me.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

I ain’t takin’ no stinkin’ pink pills! Rosacea’s bad enough without giving it any encouragement! 😛

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

BoringSchlub could have this for his blog logo.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Unfortunately I don’t think the pill turns people salmon-colored.

(Which does raise the question of why, if there’s so little of the active ingredient that it doesn’t produce the color change it does in other species, we’re supposed to believe that it will do all this awesome stuff for our health, but hey, behold the power of woo.)

embyrr922
embyrr922
8 years ago

@ boringstick

I’m a geologist, that doesn’t mean I can’t start a blog about macrame, nor that I’m obliged to point out that your “marble” countertop is actually gabbro. Seriously, your one-note whine about “journalistic integrity” is as stale as last year’s fruitcake.

Leave now, and never come back. /Sméagolvoice

Yolochan
Yolochan
8 years ago

I like how Sticky conveniently changes the focus once his points are refuted.
Oh, the MRAs and their MAN LOGICK.