The so-called manosphere may be a tiny (if noisy) corner of the internet, but here’s yet another reminder that many of its, er, “values” are shared by people other than angry Spearhead commenters and NWOslave. Some of these people even have access to real power. At the Values Voters conference this week, at which Republican VP contender Paul Ryan gave a talk, a group called Modesty Matters distributed flyers whose text reads as if it had been cribbed from posts on The Thinking Housewife or the CoAlpha Brotherhood forum.
As ThinkProgress.org reports:
Modesty Matters criticized women for dressing “immodestly” at church, and blamed women for causing men to stare lustfully at them.
Women must “embrace MODESTY in dress and behavior,” one of the handouts read. Women dressed immodestly in church are “an insult to a holy God,” another said.
Some other choice bits highlighted by ThinkProgress:
From the “Modesty: It’s nothing to be ashamed of” pamphlet: “Since men are particularly visual, immodesty in church can trigger lustful thoughts.”
“My men’s bible study group talks frequently about controlling our lust, thoughts, and eyes. Yes the problem and responsibility are ours, but is it really reasonable for the women of the church to make it THIS difficult for us?”
From the “True Woman Manifesto”: “All women, whether married of single, are to model femininity in their various relationships, by exhibiting a distinctive modesty, responsiveness, and gentleness of spirit.”
Frankly, I don’t think women are completely responsible for all of this terrible immodesty.
Obviously, James Brown deserves part of the blame as well. Here’s footage of him lobbying congress on the controversial “hot pants” issue:
Hey there, delurking briefly just to say, regarding wines: If you’re anywhere near a Trader Joe’s you should go check them out. They’ve got a pretty good, well-priced wine selection (domestic and international) and a knowledgeable wine-loving staff (assuming you’re near a TJ’s that sells booze…some of them don’t, depending on the state liquor laws)
I should know, I used to work for the company; the wine was sometimes the only thing that made it bearable…=’)
@Roscoe:
– No, I think any divine judgement will be more concerned with stuff like how you treated people in your lifetime and how you tried to make the world a better place, rather than nit-picking about people’s clothes.
– Yeah, what’s considered “modest” clothing varies greatly from culture to culture. Some people consider it immodest to show anything but your eyes. Some people live in cultures that haven’t even invented clothing and thinks it’s normal to be naked all the time. You could take a woman who’s considered “modest” by some American church, place her in some Taliban-controlled part of Afghanistan, and suddenly she looks slutty.
– I don’t know what a modesty standard that promotes feminist values would look like? I think people are rather advocating that we ditch the idea of a “modesty standard”.
– Um, yeah. When men go on about how women must avoid wearing this or that because otherwise they might get AROUSED, they’re trying to control women and place all responsibility for their own sexuality on women.
– Your last two points: Depends on what you mean more exactly. Wearing baggy and non-revealing clothes is NOT PROBLEMATIC in itself. If all women start doing this because they feel its comfy and practical or it becomes fashionable or whatever, that’s NOT PROBLEMATIC. If women start donning baggy clothes because they decided themselves that they don’t want to be sex objects, and think donning baggy clothes is the best way to achieve that, NOT PROBLEMATIC. And if people choose to live in celibacy, until they get married or even FOREVER; that’s NOT PROBLEMATIC either. I’m pretty certain that the entire manboobz crew agree with me on this one. And personally, I don’t think it’s problematic either if people want to strive for an ideal where they don’t even think sexual thoughts until they get married. I mean, it’s not like anybody is gonna succeed completely on that point, but if you want to strive for that goal, hey, it’s your mind and you can do what you want with it.
THE PROBLEM IS HOLDING OTHER PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR THOUGHTS. The problem is when a man experiences unwanted sexual thoughts or urges, and then, instead of somehow trying to train himself away from these, lays the responsibility on the women around him and start telling them what they can and cannot wear.
Compare: If I’m greedy and jealous, and want to stop thinking greedy and jealous thoughts, I should work with myself, rather than telling everyone around me to stop wearing anything expensive or saying anything about their career or salary.
@Roscoe
First of:
John 2:16
“For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life — is not from the Father but is from the world.”
I’m not even a Christian and it took me like 15 seconds to find this.
Secondly, the verses I have found concerning modesty are either more concerned with jewellery and other adornments or incredibly vague as to the definition of modesty, so judging what is modest or not is once again a human thing, which leads nicely into:
Matthew 7:1-6
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.”
So, based on the Bible itself, judging people is a bad thing to do.
And of course, that is just Christian interpretation, which means jack diddly squat if someone is from another religion or if they aren’t religious.
Like I pointed out above then yes, the “standards” that define modesty are human. Add to that the fact that acceptable standards of modesty have varied wildly across different times and cultures and and that shows they are malleable.
Then you slip in “feminist priorities” oooohhh, scary, if it wasn’t for the fact that feminist priorities are that clothing does not define a person and therefore people shouldn’t be hated by not conforming to a certain mode of dress.
This is mostly a retread of your previous premise, but if the woman is being forced to dress a certain way and being blamed for men having lusty thoughts, then that is denigrating to women because it is assigning them blame for something they are not at fault for AND it is denigrating to men because it is reducing them to slavering beasts who can’t control themselves.
Correct, if you have lusty thoughts when you look at a woman, that is on you dude, it’s not the woman’s fault.
What? No one here is promoting an increase in female modesty. Women should be able to dress as they want, be it in revealing clothes or in clothes that cover them up, whithout being forced to it.
Increased modestly is simply about controlling women, which is not to the benefit of women, no. And of course it doesn’t prevent sexual thoughts, because sexual thoughts are very common in a majority of people and while clothes can keep you warm in the winter, but they can’t control your brain and they sure can’t control someone else’s brain!
Anything else?
@Myoo and everyone else: How do you do these block quotes?
You can have erotic thoughts about someone in a full-body veil, with only their eyes showing.
I mean, if it was a nice veil, and they put on some dramatic makeup to really highlight their eyes, then that could be very mysterious-sexy.
[blockquote]
[/blockquote]
but use the pointy brackets instead.
MMMMmmmm… Linoleum.
Back to the big breasts thing–I’ve never heard it said explicitly, but it does seem to be that in cultures/subcultures with a focus on modesty having visible breasts, particularly large ones, is an indicator of sluttiness. Which just means that every woman in my immediate family is a slut. (Note: I didn’t get this from my fairly liberal/atheistic family or mainstream culture, but I’ve certainly heard another women talk about it.)
On that note: http://bustygirlcomics.com/tagged/comics/
This is my life.
It sucks, because I personally like modesty. I’m an androgynous-to-femme leanin’ lady who finds a lot of very feminine clothes to be fussy, skin-tight (even when you don’t want them to be, like with business casual slacks made for women) and thin (as in, cheaply made and tissue-papery). And what’s with the lack of pockets or anything useful in women’s pants? I’m also not a fan of the male gaze and I’d rather it not be cast my way, though I get the fact that it’s rarely in my control. I also don’t judge other women for what they wear, because my personal style is just that: my personal style.
Once, I decided to Google modest swimsuits, because I like to swim without worrying about constantly hiking my suit up or down or having to pull it out of crevices. Unfortunately, the only thing I could ever find were religiously-themed modest suits that emphasized slut-shaming and worked under the assumption that I am modest because my lady parts are shameful and need to be covered for men’s sake. Ugh.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I tend to find a guy in a well-fitting suit and a tie a hell of a lot more attractive than a guy in cutoffs and a wifebeater. Covering up skin =/= less sexy. Also waistcoats.
Basically what I’m saying is that Joseph Gordon‑Levitt in Inception is a hell of a lot more of a “stumbling block” than any guy (including Joseph Gordon-Levitt) in a speedo could ever hope to be.
It’s probably because busty women, in even a basic support bra, tend to have ‘cleavage’. There’s no way I’d have cleavage, even with lots of engineering, because I has tiddly boobs.
Add that to a culture that defines boobs as ‘sexual’ and cleavage as ‘super sexual’ and it’s easy to see why big breasts are seen as immodest.
Creative Writing Student: just look at the eyes of the veiled woman on the Rebelution modesty survey site and tell me that isn’t sexy. Also, she’s covering her mouth, which is just creepy, and makes you wonder if she’s wearing anything other than the veil…
I think I might have proved our point…
I’m in a waistcoat! 😀
@nomadrover Trader Joe’s wines are the BEST! I am currently in love with the Vinho Verde that tastes like green apple slice HEAVEN. Sadly, the TJs near me is constantly sold out of it because everyone else likes it too. 😀
@Dvärghundspossen
Like this (Let’s hope this works):
<blockquote> insert text here </blockquote>
I wish I could wear a waistcoat well; unfortunately, my massive, earth-shaking boobage causes them to not lie well on my frame.
The big boobs = slut thing is so fucking stupid. I’m a DD. I don’t want to be a DD, I wear a sports bra at all times to keep my chest from ripping off when I descend a flight of stairs, I wear ordinary (read: high neckline) t-shirts because I have awesome ones with nerdy slogans, but I have big boobs, therefore I’m a slut. At least pick something I have a modicum of control over to try to shame me with, otherwise you make yourself even more laughable than you already are.
I’m so sad I missed the wine debate as a ridiculous Britisher. GMT is an imperial curse. I am currently drinking an excellent French Malbec, which I know is close to me as a Newcastle resident, but is also a fab at-least-medium-bodied continental choice, and is often cheap in Europe. Mmm.
On boobz: I have a whopper pair, which is a curse when you also have a joints problem. I’m with embyrr – everything I wear, including high-neck Anything, makes me look HUGE, like I’m going to topple over, because I wear military-grade scaffolding to keep them in check to stop backache. What do they want? It’s hardly my fault (in fact, I’m aware I’m normatively lucky to have a chunky hourglass figure) that I am so titty I get a hunch at the end of a long day.
Anyway, just to say, I also love you all. I’m currently homeless but lucky, in that I am living in friends’ houses, and waiting on a hopeful job contract, and these discussions are a massive support, even if I lurk constantly.
@wordsp1nner:
yay for busty girl comics! I found it a few weeks ago and have been giggling ever since. So much applies (both good and bad).
There’s not much out there that I can wear that successfully de-emphasizes my boobs without getting into the world of breast binding (which just ain’t my cup of tea). And for all of my forward strides in accepting my body as a whole, it is still nice knowing I’m not the only one.
@embyrr922-
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTQyOTI3Mzky.html
… I’ll be in my bunk.
Also, on the subject of boobage- I’m busty. I enjoy wearing shirts that emphasize the fact that I am busty (and cover up pretty much everywhere else, but that’s neither here nor there). I also enjoy having sex. These two things have NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER. There is not a special chemical in my boobs that makes me feel the compulsive need to go out and seduce random men.
In some cultures where women go topless, the breasts are seen as merely milk producers. They have no sexual connotation whatsoever. The breast as a sexual object is by no means universal.
Lowquacks, I had a breakfast lol over your ‘flannel on her head’ comment! 🙂
Roscoe, it’s very simple: if these men are the ones who don’t like being aroused or simply attracted by women’s existence, then it’s up to them to change their attitude or just, y’know, grow up. It does not give them a mandate to tell half the human species how to dress, or make assumptions about them, or shove their religion (or politics, this being America) onto them. I notice you don’t think men should be told how to dress by women. If you can’t see the inequity of that, and how this is part of a bigger desire on the part of some men to control women, then you have blinkers on.
::hits post, has extra thought, nothing new there::
As to human bodies … well, what can one say? They’re just an experiment Ceiling Cat did on the way to making kittehs!
They’re just an experiment Ceiling Cat did on the way to making kittehs!
We should be thankful to Ceiling Cat that it removed the thumbs between the experiment and final stages.
One would say that chemical would be in your brain. Should we ban brains for making people stumble?
Well, I can only speak for myself, but…
– There will never be a divine judgment to hold women (nor men) accountable for adhering to any standards of modesty. The only judge is human.
I’m an atheist, so yes, that’s correct for me. But I imagine most feminists doubt the existence of a God who, when they die, is going to lecture them like the panel of “America’s Next Top Model” over what they wore and how well they wore it.
So yes. There will be no divine fashion judgement.
– Standards that define modesty are human, rather than divine, in origin. Therefore they are malleable, and so should be governed by feminist priorities.
They should be governed by human priorities. People should be free to wear what they want without being harassed or shamed about it. Except for jeggings, there’s no excuse for that nonsense.
– Any standards of modesty must promote feminist values and priorities, or else be rejected as being denigrating to women.
I don’t care about the sexiness of other women’s outfits, nor do I want to be the ultimate arbiter of what people wear. Although this will not stop me from mocking your hipster trucker hat.
– Men who seek increased female modesty actually seek to (1) objectify and control women, and (2) displace personal responsibility for their own self-control onto women.
Yup.
– Any increase in female modesty should inure to the benefit of women.
I think we’re arguing from totally different concepts of what clothing is for, and possibly what women are for. What specific benefits are you thinking of?
– Increased modesty merely suppresses sexuality, and therefore does not inure to the benefit of women.
It depends on the woman, doesn’t it? I usually dress in a way you would probably consider modest (although the writers of the modesty survey might disagree, as I indulge in such sinful couture as faded jeans and sweatshirts with writing on them). That’s what’s comfortable to me, and therefore “inures to the benefit” of me, I guess. Other women find other clothing comfortable and enjoyable to wear.
Hope this helps! Now it’s your turn.
— How modest is your clothing?
— Does the modesty of your clothing promote male values and priorities, or is it denigrating to men?
— What level of modesty in men’s clothing inures to the benefit of men?
— What does God think of your fashion choices? Is He rolling His eyes at your shoes right now?
— Yesterday I saw a guy who was walking around shirtless AND wearing baggy jeans fastened well below his ass. He was not a fit man. Can you convince him, just for me, to go put on some slacks?