Over on Married Man Sex Life, doucheblogger Athol Kay has provided the ladies with a helpful checklist of the things they need to do, or to be, or to do be do be do, to become the ultimate “red pill” girlfriend or wife. But the women he describes sound a lot less like Trinity from The Matrix than the robotified housewives from The Stepford Wives.
Mr. Kay’s list of demands is too long to quote in its entirety, but here are a few of the choicer items:
(4) Understands that there is a sexual marketplace, and that women have an earlier peak of sexual desirability than men do.
Presumably if she forgets this, her manospherian swain will happily neg her back to a properly less-positive assessment of her rapidly decaying beauty as a woman over the age of 14.
(13) Understands that divorce sucks and is more akin to getting treatment for cancer than having cosmetic surgery.
I sort of agree with this one, actually: for women married to Athol Kay’s followers, getting divorced would be a lot like removing a malignant tumor.
(14) Likes men in a general sense for who they are and what they do, rather than detesting all men in general and making an exception for the tiny few in her nuclear family.
(Huh. Project much?)
(15) Understands the risks both men and women take in having serious relationships, and is willing to negotiate ways to verify trustworthiness in each other. Sees doing this as evidence of true commitment rather than an insulting invasion of privacy.
I have no fucking idea what he’s talking about here. Lie detector tests? Waterboarding?
(20) Doesn’t keep the Red Pill a secret from those that need it.
That’s what we need, more women lecturing women on how terrible they are.
I’ve saved the best for last:
(3) Understands that what she does with her vagina always has some sort of consequence.
Seriously. Please think twice before tattooing Homer Simpson on you hoo-hah! (This has actually been done. You’ll have to look up the pictures yourself.)
In the comments, BlackCat adds a 21st item to the list:
(21) Understands that current society/public opinion, the vast majority of churches, and almost all laws, courts and government agencies dealing with families are all biased heavily against men, and that until the incentives and disincentives return to a more balanced state, men are completely justified in being gun-shy and avoiding commitment and other entanglements as much as possible.
Corollary to (21): Appreciates the men, especially informed (red pill) men, who are willing to take the chance at a relationship despite the above, and goes out of her way to prevent them from being taken advantage of, and to publicly denounce those who do take advantage of them.
So come on, gals, start lining up for your chance to jump through endless hoops for the chance to get with a dude who thinks he’s doing you a gigantic favor by even considering dating you in the first place!
While we’re at it, here’s my favorite scene from The Stepford Wives (the original 1975 version, of course), in which [SPOILER ALERT] Joanna, the new gal in Stepford, discovers that her friend Bobbie is no longer the free-spirited Women’s Libber she thought she knew.
Phil is a long winded and boring troll. He does not amuse me.
Aworld, I never drank in college. I survived, and had a social life. It takes time to build – try out a bunch of clubs, talk to people in class, look for people in the dorm hiding in quiet study areas, etc. Don’t spend all your non-class time in your room – there is a line between introversion and depression. If you’re really feeling down, see if there is a counseling center on campus (there probably will be – check their website or call the health center). If nothing else, they’ll be able to help you get involved in the campus community (the non drunk part of it).
All this talk about miserable college days just make me so glad I’m no longer there. Sure, it was a privilege but god I was so miserable.
And oh, factfinder. I pretend you’re a talking plushie given the internet. One of Meller’s dolls that got loose one day and made a break for freedom. (Is DKM still around?)
Aworldanon, please don’t do anything to harm yourself 🙁
In a new setting, of course the first people you’re going to notice are the ones who are loud, obnoxious, and in-your-face. But you have to believe us when we tell you that most people aren’t like that. There are other people who want to spend Friday night making cookies and playing Mao (anyway that’s what I did on Fridays my freshman year).
It’s cute that you’re assuming that all men would be threatened and annoyed by their significant other going out and having fun* with her friends, but you’re forgetting that not all men are you.*(2)
*In a way that’s obviously much too wild – ladies “getting crazy”, being all raucous and drunk? Heaven forfend! Where are my smelling salts?
* (2) I was going to say “as insecure, controlling, sexist, and generally a huge pain in the ass as you”, but I am being all ladylike and discreet out of respect to Phil’s delicate feelings and archaic ideas about relationships.
That question is not at all besides the point, actually. It’s rather key. If you are not yourself a good person, then demanding that others be good, ie much better than you are, is hypocritical.
You could pretty much sign all your comments “this is my privilege speaking” and it would be a fair and accurate summary of your perspective.
@aworld
This point cannot be understated. A lot of people, especially when they’re young and in intimidating situations, drink not because they love drinking but because they’re using the booze as liquid courage. Given the situation you’re in, it’s almost inevitable that some of the people around you are feeling just as out of place as you are, they’re just attempting to cope in different ways. There are plenty of people in the world who’re not big drinkers.
Overstated, not understated. Duh.
Aworld: high-five for non-drinky people who feel alienated in college and experience suicidal ideation! (If you’d like to IM me sometime when we’re both being losers on Friday night together, my Gmail is ozyfrantz at gmail dot com and I’m practically always on GChat.) There are *definitely* non-drinky people in college; I go to a school locally famous for being a stoner school and for my first year I didn’t have a single friend who regularly drank. And then I became terrified of the concept of meatspace friends, but it happened once!
Phil: You know, my girlfriend is going out and smoking pot with a guy *right now*, and I don’t care. Because she’s a big girl and she can take care of herself. Not everyone is the insecure fuckhead you think they are.
Unlike the d00dz who come up with these “A Woman Must…” lists.
Sweet! Can we have a party? I’ll bring the Lady Grey!
Also, it may be worth pointing out that “drinks alcohol” is a thing that people do rather than a thing that people are. If the people around you drink, and you don’t want to, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re people so different to you that you could never become friend with them or have things in common, it just means that at this point in everyone’s life they want to drink a lot, and you don’t. Framing it as these people are so fundamentally different to me that I’m like an alien and therefore I’ll never fit in here and I know this because everyone else is always drunk seems like catastrophizing to me – understandable in the circumstances, but honestly not very logical. Some of those people might make great friends for you, it’s just that you’d probably have to plan time spent together around times when they’re not likely to be drinking heavily.
Cassandra: Yep. My girlfriend drinks fairly regularly, and we can still have a good relationship, even though I have a literal phobia that encompasses alcohol. (I just pretend the alcohol is INVISIBLE.) I’ve gone to parties where people are drinking and had a great time; as long as they don’t pressure you into drinking and don’t spend the entire time talking about how drunk they are, it can be great fun. (You may want to duck out early, though, as the party gets rapidly less interesting to non-drunk people the drunker they get.)
Nepenthe: I would be happy to throw a party! I will bring several kinds of decaf and green tea!
@ Ozy
One of my good friends doesn’t drink at all, because she has that genetic thing where she can’t metabolize alcohol the way most people can (I can’t remember the proper term for this). I like to drink sometimes (thought not in large quantities, because I am a lightweight and I don’t enjoy being any drunker than tipsy), but that doesn’t create any sort of fundamental disconnect between us. I just tend not to drink around her, because I know if I do and I get babbly the way drunk people do then she’ll be bored and possibly annoyed. It’s just not that big a deal.
@AWorld: May I say that I get a happy every time I see your little red & black faced kitty icon show up? I like you here, and I hope you stay around.
Being an introvert doesn’t mean you’re doing life wrong. It means you find social interaction to be work, and it’s more restful to be alone, or to be with people who don’t demand interaction. Extroverts aren’t doing life right, it’s just that they find social interaction energizing. (Also, they tend not to comprehend the need for alone-time, and think that if you’re alone, you must be bored and lonely.)
I don’t drink much myself. I got drunk a couple of times when I was around 20, and I REALLY don’t like the sensation of not being able to control my eyeballs. I don’t feel safe when inebriated in company, and I don’t like being around drunk people. They tend to be obnoxious and push my boundaries.
My younger brother drinks a lot, and he also doesn’t like being around drunk people *when he’s sober*. Drunk people are assholes, generally speaking.
Also: Rooibos tea is the best. Hot or cold.
Unimaginative speaks truth.
The don’t feel safe issue is another reason why I rarely have more than 2 or 3 drinks. I won’t drink in situations where I’m not sure there’s someone around who would have my back if necessary, and even if there is someone like that around I won’t drink if there’s anyone else around who I actively distrust. It’s not that I’d ever set out to get seriously wasted, but you never know what might happen (stronger drinks than you expected, interaction with medication, didn’t have much to eat that day), and I don’t like being in situations where my perceptions and control of a situation are impaired if there’s a possibility that there might be people around who might wish me harm.
It is a convenient example of feminists behaving badly. If you take issue with it, I would advise you encourage the responsible parties to issue apologies and make amends.
Other than putting the man who wronged the victim behind bars? I would certainly report a man who assaulted me, regardless of the incentives.
That being said, I am curious how telling people to “fuck off” helps society become more just. If you think that expecting a reasonably courteous answer to an inoffensive post is unreasonable, I am curious how you justify your cruelty.
I was going somewhere with that introvert/extrovert thing, and lost track. My point is, different people find different things enjoyable, and that’s totally okay.
I remember you mentioned that you made the choice to live on campus so you would be forced to learn some social skills, and I thought that was really brave of you. The thing about a university campus is that just about everyone else there is also learning some social skills, and trying out new things to be interested in. You’re SUPPOSED to try out different classes, different clubs, different social groups. See what you like, find out what you absolutely can’t tolerate.
You seem to keep coming back to the realization that people are people, and not just people-shaped objects for you to use or ignore. That tells me that you almost certainly won’t screw up badly. You’ll err on the side of compassion, and that’s the side to err on.
So, maybe don’t try out the Beer of the Day club, but maybe give the Society for Creative Anachronism a shot. Avoid the Opimian society, but maybe there’s a Lego club on campus. (That would be AWESOME. Maybe you could start one. Talk to the student association, they should have a list of all the student-run clubs on campus. Sometimes all you need to do is put up a sign saying “If you dig Lego, meet up at XX place on YY date at ZZ time”)
The loud, drunken people aren’t doing university right, they’re just doing it loudly.
Back to the different strokes thing, my drinks-too-much little brother really enjoys gunsmithing. He loves tinkering and filing and sanding and polishing, and going out shooting, and then tinkering some more. A lot of people bring their guns to him to fix, and they’re kind of apologetic about asking him to do the work. He keeps telling them, “No, this is fun for me.” They don’t really believe it, because it wouldn’t be fun for them.
So, the moral is: find the stuff that’s fun for you, and don’t worry that you don’t enjoy crap that other people seem to think is fun. There’s room for all of us weirdos in the world, especially at university.
I’ve had similar experiences but I’d personally draw a pretty hard line between situations where there’s some drinking (but people are generally sober) and situations where everyone is getting drunk. The former are usually completely fine even if you’re not drinking. The latter, however, are not fun at all: They’re loud and confusing and boring and people are throwing up.
Just want to mention that because I think young non-drinkers often feel like, to be fun, they have to do all the stuff the drunk people are doing except the actual drinking, and when they don’t enjoy it, they conclude that they’re just no fun. Fact is, there are some things that just aren’t fun unless you’re drunk. There are also many things (ie, anything that uses your brain) that are more fun sober!
Of course you would. But what if, when you reported this man who assaulted you, any or all of the following happened:
– The police ignored you.
– The police said you were lying.
– The police said you were asking for it.
– The man’s lawyer brought up every incident in your past to make it look like you are, at heart, a morally reprehensible freak who goes out trolling for people to assault you.
– The jury believed them.
– The judge ruled that you were just an assault junkie looking to stir up shit for that poor man you entrapped in your victimy wiles.
– The press made you out to be an attention-seeking mischief-maker.
– Your boss fired you for being too morally impure for your company.
Those are DISINCENTIVES to report an assault. And they happen ROUTINELY to people, including men, who report being raped.
So fuck you.
Besides what Unimaginative brought up, the incentive of putting the man who assaulted you is only applicable in a minority of cases. Most rapists are known to the victim. I was raped by an ex-boyfriend and spoke to the free legal clinic at my university about it. While they didn’t advise me explicitly against pursuing legal action, they did advise me that in my case (two weeks after the fact, ex confessed to raping me after offering me drinks he had made that had about three times as much booze in them as he said they did, then dressed me so I wouldn’t suspect anything had been amiss), no evidence besides his words, which I had not recorded, could be provided.
I’d love him to be in jail. But the courts can’t convict on my word alone. The fact that I went to the legal clinic about this “personal problem” got around with people I knew. I lost a lot of friends over it, both because of rape apologetics and because of the drama I “invited” by going to the clinic. For the non-existant incentive of seeing him behind bars, I lost a lot of friends (Good riddance, rape apologists, though).
Katz: I’ve actually had fun at parties where almost everyone was some manner of intoxicated; the important thing was that there was lots of dancing and talking with friends I don’t see very often and costumes and a safe room to retreat to when I was overwhelmed (my college has a specific one of these at all Big Parties, mostly intended for people who are having bad trips). But if the only thing at the party is drinking? Skip it.
IR: http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2012/02/why-i-didnt-just-call-cops.html. Read. Learn.
@IR
Take your fantasy about misandry somewhere else. You’re boring.
Ozy: My friends and I (back in school) were a mixed group of drinkers and non-drinkers. We eventually found drinking was just something we did as part of a process of whatever other activity we were doing. Late night anime/fandom/sociology discussions were often the topic of choice for us. Granted I have always hung around a nerdy crowd, as the crowd I am with currently is also of mixed boozinating while roleplaying.
Though we also did like going out to a bar/pub to have similar discussions, which in hindsight could make it difficult for those who didn’t like that environment.
The first time I ever got drunk was not the result of my peers, but the result of my professors taking some of us out to drink with them. A shot of tequila for each class you’ve been in with a professor is a terrible idea, let me say. I tend to avoid repeating the experience.
I feel that overall my experience with college (though recent) might have been unique in terms of booze, since I avoided the more wild drinking situations.
I’m thinking the “sexual peak” thing also means:
“Yes, 19 year old to whom I am attracted, you may dislike the idea of dating a 54 year old and think you can do better; but I’m here to tell you that I’m still in my sexual prime and thus highly desirable! Whereas it’s all downhill for you from here on out, so you’d better take me while the offer’s still valid.”