Over on Married Man Sex Life, doucheblogger Athol Kay has provided the ladies with a helpful checklist of the things they need to do, or to be, or to do be do be do, to become the ultimate “red pill” girlfriend or wife. But the women he describes sound a lot less like Trinity from The Matrix than the robotified housewives from The Stepford Wives.
Mr. Kay’s list of demands is too long to quote in its entirety, but here are a few of the choicer items:
(4) Understands that there is a sexual marketplace, and that women have an earlier peak of sexual desirability than men do.
Presumably if she forgets this, her manospherian swain will happily neg her back to a properly less-positive assessment of her rapidly decaying beauty as a woman over the age of 14.
(13) Understands that divorce sucks and is more akin to getting treatment for cancer than having cosmetic surgery.
I sort of agree with this one, actually: for women married to Athol Kay’s followers, getting divorced would be a lot like removing a malignant tumor.
(14) Likes men in a general sense for who they are and what they do, rather than detesting all men in general and making an exception for the tiny few in her nuclear family.
(Huh. Project much?)
(15) Understands the risks both men and women take in having serious relationships, and is willing to negotiate ways to verify trustworthiness in each other. Sees doing this as evidence of true commitment rather than an insulting invasion of privacy.
I have no fucking idea what he’s talking about here. Lie detector tests? Waterboarding?
(20) Doesn’t keep the Red Pill a secret from those that need it.
That’s what we need, more women lecturing women on how terrible they are.
I’ve saved the best for last:
(3) Understands that what she does with her vagina always has some sort of consequence.
Seriously. Please think twice before tattooing Homer Simpson on you hoo-hah! (This has actually been done. You’ll have to look up the pictures yourself.)
In the comments, BlackCat adds a 21st item to the list:
(21) Understands that current society/public opinion, the vast majority of churches, and almost all laws, courts and government agencies dealing with families are all biased heavily against men, and that until the incentives and disincentives return to a more balanced state, men are completely justified in being gun-shy and avoiding commitment and other entanglements as much as possible.
Corollary to (21): Appreciates the men, especially informed (red pill) men, who are willing to take the chance at a relationship despite the above, and goes out of her way to prevent them from being taken advantage of, and to publicly denounce those who do take advantage of them.
So come on, gals, start lining up for your chance to jump through endless hoops for the chance to get with a dude who thinks he’s doing you a gigantic favor by even considering dating you in the first place!
While we’re at it, here’s my favorite scene from The Stepford Wives (the original 1975 version, of course), in which [SPOILER ALERT] Joanna, the new gal in Stepford, discovers that her friend Bobbie is no longer the free-spirited Women’s Libber she thought she knew.
The people who believe this nonsense about hoops everywhere are usually the ones who spend most of their energy trying to manipulate others.
Jumping through hoops is not give and take, it’s bullshit.
And what is so all-fired important for her to understand about this? So when she is past her “peak of sexual desirability” and he is at (or still at) his “peak of sexual desirability”, must she understand how it’s “in his nature” to find a younger hottie to fuck, and she should just STFU and deal with it now that she’s past her expiry date?
Ah, yes, I remember that deal. “If you love me, why do you spend so much time with your friends?”, which gradually evolved to “If you love me, why do you spend any time with your friends? You must be fucking them, you whore.” which gradually evolved to “Why do you volunteer/have hobbies/leave the house at all/have any interests besides me, you stupid slut.” Serious relationships, gotta jump through those hoops!
Relationships are not supposed to be work. You shouldn’t have to start drinking at noon in order to be able to cope with your spouse (I have a friend who does this). The people who say “marriage is hard work” or “marriage is a struggle” probably married the wrong person. You wouldn’t keep hanging out with your friends if they made you miserable every day. And your spouse should also be your friend, not just the person you sleep with.
I liked the line from The Sex and the CIty movie when Samantha asks, “How often are you happy in your relationship?” and Charlotte replies “Every day. Not all day every day, but every day.”
That is what marriage should be like.
Aworld, I really hope you’re joking about that rope thing.
Isolate the target is #1 on the list for abusers.
Yeah, I’ve been around those types, too….their ego takes a giant hit when your whole world doesn’t revolve around them.
It really does feel that way most of the time, Aworld, doesn’t it.
How do we find other peeps like us if all the peeps like us are introverts? Besides, what would we do if we did find someone like us? Hang out and introvert together?
It gets easier. I promise. I’m sixty six now, and it has been pretty easy going for the past thirty years.
Reading that list gave me hives.
How insecure can you get? And no, I’m the only one who gets to define my sexuality and worth. Christ, they want sex robots who coddle them and looks good all the time. Err, who do their wives call when their man’s hairline goes south? Or that gut becomes too pronounced, or they won’t put on a clean shirt?
Hey aworldanonymous, I’m an introvert too, and the idea of spending every waking moment with a SO sounds exhausting. Had a couple of dudes try to pull this on me. I had to walk away because I couldn’t fucking breathe.
Ever notice these guys fear sexual experience like the Wicked Witch from Oz feared water. It makes them melt away, then they die. Not an attractive portrait. The ick factor runs deep with these ninnies.
@aworld
The perception that you’re the only introvert is a sampling bias. The other introverts are also hiding in their rooms, not carousing in the halls. Inferences made from the population of drunks in the halls are not valid for the population at large. Not that it is particularly comforting, but it might help to remember, sometimes.
And, you know, don’t kill yourself. As a person with near constant suicidal ideation, I know how, uh, lame that sounds, having heard it a lot, but, yeah. I mean, at the very least, knowing nothing else about you, I know the folk here would miss you. Do you have a friend or family member who you can call if you feel unsafe?
“Bullshit. I’m engaged to be married – no hoops”
‘Hoops’ is perhaps a bad word for it since that conjures up images of a dog performing tricks for others’ entertainment. I guess that’s what David was going for in his post, but it was probably a mistake on my part to adopt the terminology. “Give and take” is a better word for it, because social interactions of any kind require, for lack of a better word, at least some compromise.
“I’m not considerate of my man because he holds out a bunch of hoops. I love him and we’re tremendously compatible. No hoops required.”
The question then, is how did you attain that level of trustworthiness? Perhaps you guys are so perfectly compatible that there is no give and take. In which case, good on you because most people can’t find that level of compatibility.
For the rest of us, if there are competing desires, then it helps to have some transparency. If, for instance, a woman I was dating were going out every weekend and when I asked her about it she got defensive and was insulted, then I would go on my merry way. On the other hand, if she’s open about it, then you can negotiate your boundaries, and if she sees constant girl’s nights out as something she’s willing to forgo on account of the relationship then you can make that work or not. Whatever the couple decides to do, being defensive and insulted isn’t the way to go.
“And he has no problem with me going out with my friends because he’s confident enough not to view such activities as me acting like I’m single. He recognizes it for what it is: me spending time with my friends. As you do. ”
Perhaps I wasn’t clear. Going out with friends is one thing. It’s kind of hard to articulate the difference, because there’s a pretty fine line and it can be subjective. For my part, I don’t ever tell my “little lady” (snark) not to go out with friends, but only because I know that she doesn’t go out to “get crazy” and get super drunk and do regrettable things. That’s just part of our ‘negotiated’ trust, so to speak.
Of course, going back to Kay’s post, it’s entirely possible that he’s talking about something more malicious. I don’t know the guy and I don’t read his blog often if at all, so perhaps I’m missing a larger context. I’m just trying to take his words at face value.
“Phil, please explain to me how exactly this is an example of “being considerate and empathetic.”
(4) Understands that there is a sexual marketplace, and that women have an earlier peak of sexual desirability than men do.”
I think this one is about “ideal”, I guess. It seems kind of stupid, because I don’t think a woman has to understand the rules of the SMP to be down-to-earth or to have a reasonable self-assessment. But I wasn’t talking about this item on his list, I was talking about the other one that I quoted or whatever the context was in my other post.
“What if she doesn’t “understand” this? Do you break up with her?”
I’m right with you, man. I’m not really understanding the point of her knowing about the SMP either. I’ve known a lot of women who are down to earth, and realistic, and have never heard of the SMP concept.
“Even if you think that “women get ugly faster than men” is some sort of natural law, what possible difference does it make to a man if his wife or girlfriend doesn’t agree with this?”
Yeah, I don’t know. I was referring to it being polite for a person, not to get defensive when someone wants to negotiate trustworthiness. I don’t see a problem there. Of course, there are issues of controlling or abusive partners, but I think that’s beyond the scope of the discussion.
“Or maybe I’ve read you all wrong, Phil, and you assume that only the woman is supposed to be “considerate and empathetic” to her husband/boyfriend, and not the other way around.”
Why would I think that? If we’re going to be honest about the tone of a large majority of the manosphere, in sum total it almost seems to be a lament from men, sort of like, “Where have all of the good women gone?” Now, there are questions of whether or not the men asking this are, themselves, good, but that’s besides the point.
I think the implicit assumption Kay is using is that his audience already agrees that they should have these same standards, and they just don’t think some or most or all women live up to them as well. Like if a woman were to say, “Don’t you hate it when your boyfriend/husband does x?!” She’s not saying that only men have to live up that standard, she’s just saying she hates it when some men/her man does not.
aworldanonymous, You’ll find your niche. There are lots of us introverts out there, having fun in our introverted way. No rope, no hanging yourself. Call someone if those feeling persist, okay?
Also, diet is very important. Lots of vegetables!
“Phil, It is silly to pretend that the abuser lobby gives advice and encouragement to anyone but fellow abusers. No decent human being would get past item #1 without stopping for a WTF.”
Yes, but it’s also silly to pretend that everyone is out to abuse everyone else and everyone is inherently bad. This sort of “waiting to be a victim” mentality is the same reasoning MGTOW’s use to forgo relationships altogether. “Any woman out there at any time could be the one that screws me over.” I don’t think that logic holds for MGTOWs, just the same as I don’t think it holds for anyone who is expecting to be abused by the opposite sex at any given time. The people who abuse are a tiny, tiny subset of whatever group we’re talking about (unless of course it’s a forum of abusers).
But that raises the question, how do you know that Kay is abusive or encouraging abuse? It’s like you’re assuming he’s encouraging abuse, filtering his words through that context, and then using that assumption as proof that you’re right. I’m not saying Kay isn’t an abuser, but those words don’t prove that he is.
Now, I don’t have to live in fear of being abused, so perhaps this is my privilege speaking, but it seems to me that you’re projecting your fears on other people. I’m not, on the other hand, endorsing everything that Kay says with this assertion, I just think it’s weird that what could otherwise be, seemingly, good advice is taken by you as a way of encouraging abuse. It’s like, if I say, “A man should be open about his feelings with the woman in his life.” And someone responds, “Well she could use that as an excuse to manipulate you and take advantage of you.” Yes, I suppose that’s true, so all that proves is that you don’t follow the advice with a woman who would do that. In the same way I would advise that some of the more reasonable points on Kay’s list should only be followed IF the man a woman is with is not manipulative and abusive. Context matters, but if you assume all context is abusive, then I suppose all advice except protecting yourself at all costs will look dangerous.
Because I recognize the giant red abuse flags when they are waved in my face or written in a blog post.
Phil: tl;dr. No one cares what you think.
Re: Phil
I find the idea of the sexual marketplace and women having an “earlier peak value” intrinsically abusive. It’s literally saying a woman LOSES VALUE sexually in a relationship from years! That’s a dick thing to say to anyone!
You’re giving this guy way too much slack. IT’S STILL A DOUCHE THING TO SAY.
Also, anyone who believes #4 as a bio-truth is a sexist ass. And #3…wtf? Vaginas should come with a warning label, I suppose. #21 is paranoid as shit.
Well, I’m glad you’ve made an attempt to clarify/back-track. Yes, relationships of any kind usually involve some sort of “give and take,” although the ratios can vary wildly. I don’t have a problem with the word “compromise” as such but it’s not one of my favorites when it comes to relationships. Compromise can be as simple as deciding where to eat out for a dinner or what movie to see. In that context it can certainly be a part of a healthy relationship. But it also carries the implication of hammering out a solution for much more complex and contentious issue like where to live, how many children to have, where you’ll spend the holidays, etc.
I’m not much for compromise on all of the little things. I prefer the flexibility of suggesting alternatives until both people can find something that makes them happy. In my experience, too much compromise results in relationships where neither person is ever really happy.
For all that, you could just find somebody who likes the things that you like or be happy and alone.
Some of Athol’s stuff is legitimately reasonable but only if one looks at it from “this is the specific sort of relationship dynamic that works for Athol and a lot of other people who fall into already stereotypical gender roles and gendered relationships will often react favorably to these dynamics” sort of angle. It is, however, a terrible idea to extrapolate this to ALL WOMEN EVERYWHERE. And in the above article, he totally misses the mark about a lot of the relationship dynamics (especially if you look at his famous Captain/First officer Star Trek relationship posts). If you have someone who honestly sees themselves as less of a person who is “in their place” instead of an equally competent person who is a partner but who likes to defer to the authority of whoever is considered “captain” because it works in their specific relationship, then it’s pretty hard to have all these things.
I don’t understand a lot of the “red pill” nonsense. To me, it seems like a tactic used by PUAs to try and normalize taking advantage of and manipulating people- to distance themselves from the actual hurt they’re doing to actual people. And just like most people who get into PUA-focused material, Athol is trying to sell something- specifically “fix your marriage with game” programs- the idea being that men who are having relationship problems are simply not “gaming” their wives properly and therefore their wives are getting tired and horrible.
On one hand, it’s nice because it seems like the only way a misogynist will ever clean himself up, get off his ass and stop taking his spouse for granted is if someone ties it up in a misogynistic package that blames it all on the woman for being inherently in love with alpha tendencies. But…..that’s also the problem. It’s still wrapped up in the “oh those silly wimminz- I have to act in better ways in order to appeal to them so I can get more pussy” nasty packaging.
Not taking people for granted, taking care of your body, and being clear about your relationship needs (and expectations) is part of a FUNCTIONAL RELATIONSHIP. People who have to turn it into a game where they are “winning” something from their partner are basically in a place where either they’re married to a shitty person, they themselves are a shitty person, or both people are shitty and both have severely neglected their relationship and placed it on autopilot for an incredibly long time. In any of these cases, fixing things isn’t going to be easy, and trying to make your partner feel insecure and inferior is probably going to backfire more than you know. But even in the shit, there is a nugget of gold here and there (such as, “improve upon your own body and health- learn to feel good about yourself, add hobbies, etc”- because those things make you a better PERSON and it keeps you from just being in that negative feedback loop). It’s one part self-help and one part misogyny. And the misogyny is kind of uncalled for (but it seems to be the only way that these misogynists can even think of attempting to do things like develop hobbies or take regular showers).
I honestly think that it’s quite possible for people to be fulfilled in a relationship where one person likes having the other person having the “final say” on things- sometimes a relationship partner can be super indecisive, and this helps keep the relationship running smoothly. But it should not be tied up in a woman-bashing ribbon, and in misogynist wrapping paper. Talking about semi-egalitarianism in relationships and then adding “those stupid wimminz” bullshit basically puts all the onus on the relationship being fixed on the woman and if it fails, they can just tell themselves it’s because the “bitches” wouldn’t comply.
Ugh.
Uh… not actually true. Between 5 and 15% of men will identify themselves as rapists or attempted rapists if you don’t use the r-word. These men are responsible for a shocking amount of interpersonal and domestic violence, but not all of it. So, to be very conservative, maybe 15% of men are abusers. One in six is not a tiny, tiny subset. See Lisak 2002 in Violence and Victims for a good review of the data and a look at the methodology of these studies.
Like MRA and PUA (always try to type “pus” instead) forums?
The Stepford Wives creeped me out. I didn’t care so much for the remake.
” but only because I know that she doesn’t go out to “get crazy” and get super drunk and do regrettable things. That’s just part of our ‘negotiated’ trust, so to speak.”
Ugh, this is really rubbing me the wrong way.
My step-sister, when she was about 18/19 (so around legal drinking age in Canada, where we live.) , had a boyfriend who was kind of a controlling, abusive jerk. She’s go out with him and her friends, she’d get “drunk”, she’d dance with her friends.
He had a problem with that. He’d accuse her of being an alcoholic, and since both her parents had substance abuse problems, she had a difficult time realizing that no, just because she went to clubs and drank every other weekend, that doesn’t make her an alcoholic. She thought that obviously, since they had these problems, she would too. He said she was to A) make her stop going out and B) Make her stop going out while making it look like it was out of concern for her.
So, yeah. “I’m totally fine with her hanging out with her friends as long as she does it on my terms” rubs me the wrong way.
Trust cannot be obtained through “hoops” or compromise. Trust in a relationship can only be attained through trust. Trusting the person that you’re with and holding dear the trust that they have in you. Compatibility is part of it, sure, but if a person finds it difficult to be open, and considerate, and compassionate with their partner then they have the wrong partner.
I love my man. I also like him a whole lot. I respect the hell out of him.
These are my minimum requirements for being in a serious, long-term relationship.
If the whole thing was about negotiating competing desires, and who goes out when, and what was acceptable behavior for me when I was out with my friends… I’d just as soon not bother. I have clients with whom I have to constantly negotiate terms.
I don’t need that in relationships.
aworld: I like to remember there’s always the internet. For every yelling drunk person outside having fun, there’s an introvert in their house/room/etc (like Nepenthe says), and there’s a good chance that they’re having fun on the net. Obviously that’s not exactly useful if what you feel you need is to actually do stuff with someone in person, but it’s something.
I get stuck in an introversion loop sometimes where I think it would be nice to do stuff with people who share my interests (and I guess views too, because otherwise argh), because that’s what I enjoy (rather than going out where there’s big groups of people I don’t know and have no interest in what I see as fun). But then I think about how actually meeting those people would involve that “out” place i’m not too fond of.
It probably doesn’t help that I try to ignore the problem and distract myself from it either, rather than doing something about it (opting for the more comfortable situation). Loopage of doom (but loopage that is a lot less serious than what I can tell of your situation).
I have a point here somewhere I promise, uh. I guess my point is you aren’t the only one, at the very least we’re all here somewhere on the internet. Either that or just disregard everything I just typed and imagine I said something inspiring/comforting/helpful etc because i’m awful at doing that.
I dunno, just everyone being drunk right now has lead me to realize how much I hate being drunk, which has led me to realize how different I am from most people, which has led me to realize how alone I really am in life.