So I’ve been mostly avoiding writing about the whole Men’s Rights postering controversy in Vancouver, because it’s such a tempest in a teapot. The tl;dr: Some posters got torn down, and some of the people tearing them down yelled at the blabby MRA videoblogger and A Voice for Men second fiddle known as JohnTheOther.
MRAs: Given that virtually none of you have any experience as actual real world activists, you may not be aware of this, but POSTERS GET TORN DOWN. It’s annoying, and I don’t support it myself, but it happens all the time. Sometimes, you may actually run across people tearing down your posters, at which point there is usually some sort of awkward confrontation that may include yelling.
You know what you do when this happens? You put your posters up again. You know what you don’t do? Compare the experience to rape. Because, on the list of the grand injustices of the world, having posters torn down is pretty far down the list, somewhere around “stubbing your toe” and “kitten farts on you.”
That said, here are a few new “developments” in this ongoing epic.
1) Jezebel has posted a piece about the controversy. The most interesting thing about it is the following quote from, you guessed it, JohnTheOther, who apparently had this to say to someone from a local “community-driven news” website. The topic? False accusations of rape.
Maybe it’s a mistaken accusation, she doesn’t remember who she had sex with because she was drunk at the party or whatever. Some make accusations that have nothing to do with being raped; they’re angry, or they got stood up, they wanted to have sex with a guy but he said no. The fact that our society doesn’t have a balance for this is a major problem. I’m not suggesting every woman you meet is a loose cannon, but every woman you meet has the potential to be one, because for those few who are nutty, there’s no disincentive for them to go, oh, I was late for work. I know, I’ll just say I got raped.
Now, if the Men’s Rights movement were an actual civil rights movement trying to better the lives of men, this quote would be a public relations disaster. What real civil rights movement would want to have itself associated with someone who seems to think that women make up rape accusations willy nilly, when a date stands them up or when they need an excuse for being late to work?
Of course, the Men’s Rights “movement” isn’t an actual civil rights movement at all; it’s more like a collective tantrum. While MRAs are eager to “spread the word,” the more spreading they do, the more damage they do to themselves. No one is better at making MRAs look bad than MRAs themselves, which is why on this blog I spend so much of the time letting these (mostly) dudes make themselves look ridiculous with their own words. So, JtO, thanks?
2) And speaking of Mr. TheOther, we can now see video footage of the supposed dramatic confrontation that JohnTheOther had with what his AVFM boss Paul Elam called “a gang of 20-30 assholes on the street, some wielding box cutters.”
GirlWritesWhat, one of the Men’s Rights movement’s few non-dudes, has put up selections of video footage from Mr. TheOther in her video below.
As you’ll see – unless for some reason GWW has decided not to post the most incriminating parts of the video — there was no gang; it was a small group of people. No one was “wielding box cutters” in a threatening manner. The whole thing took place in broad daylight on a busy street.
Some posters were taken down. There were some raised voices. That’s it. That’s the sort of shit activists deal with every fucking day of their life.
Here’s the video:
Am I missing something here? This non-event is the alleged confrontation that AVFM has been hyperventilating about all this time? This is the evil anti-MRA harassment that Elam says “makes getting bestially raped by Richard Dawkins sound kinda funny.”
Leave it to Mr. Elam to add a rape-joke cherry to this bullshit sundae. Once again, MRAs are their own worst enemies.
Halite, I’ve had two cats who do that, but only on glass doors when they wanted to get into the other room – looks very funny from the front, I’ll have to scan the photos I took of them doing it. “Let me in! Let me in!: 😀
Your kitty’s a cutie.
Hi y’all, long time lurker, first time commenter. I love this site, love David’s writing and love the regular commenters, intelligent and insightful. I’d like to make you all a Pimm’s cup and sit on the lawn with you and have a laugh. Anyway.
I first became aware of the MRM when I met a man who was an incel (and I am not by any means attempting any celibacy/virgin shaming here). We went on a date and when I respectfully told him I didn’t wish to see him again, but that we could be friends, his behavior and arguments he used against my decision became bizarre to the point of becoming dangerous. He repeatedly made it clear that he felt he knew what was best for me, and I did not, and that I should do what he wanted. He seemed to think that I had no rights at all, and if he just convinced me hard enough, I would cave. It was really disturbing.
I eventually had to threaten police action if he didn’t leave me alone, and to his credit, he has left me alone ever since. But now I was completely curious about this person’s attitude, and couldn’t help but wonder if his lack of experience with women had lead him to latently hate them…….I did some googling, and now here we are.
The one thing that keeps coming up for me that has been clearly stated here is that this is not a rights movement, it’s a hate movement. For whatever reason, they have engendered within them a fanatical hatred of the idea that a woman can make a choice, have rights, or think for herself.
The remaining question I have is WHY. I know there are potentially a thousand reasons, but just being rejected? Doesn’t seem to be a good enough reason, as has been pointed out here. What fosters this kind of hate? Might be a dumb question, but this is such a smart group I want to know your thoughts.
Also, I stay for the kitties 🙂
I am chuckling and guffawing with amusement at you obviously and transparently lying without subtlety.
MGTOWMRA is a truly a font of truthiness and laughage.
“Truthiness,” gawd that makes me think of the awful Sarah Palin. Just when I’m trying to eat lunch, too!
Yeah………sure………whatevs……..
“MRAs: Given that virtually none of you have any experience as actual real world activists, you may not be aware of this, but POSTERS GET TORN DOWN. It’s annoying, and I don’t support it myself, but it happens all the time. Sometimes, you may actually run across people tearing down your posters, at which point there is usually some sort of awkward confrontation that may include yelling.”
My suggest David is if you don’t support then you shouldn’t support it.
In this post what you mainly do is to minimize it and claim this is normal and acceptable behavior.
It would be pretty easy for you not to support it David, all you need to do is write:
“Some posters were torn down, and I believe this is wrong. Our culture is based on dialog and tearing down speech is very rarely the right thing to do.”
See David, easy peasy.
While you bring up some of John The Other’s problematical statements, and yes, not every fledgling advocacy group is always on message or unable to shoot themselves in the foot (cf Susan G. Komen Race For the Cure), what is also notable, and notable because of how you refused to report on it, is how the people in the video, and how Jezebel, freely discuss why tearing these posters down is justified and why stopping speech is justified.
It’s ironic and tremendously sad and a marked failure for you David you would write this the day after 9/11, the day after people were killed in Libya over the speech of a movie.
Uh… I’m not sure if giving this video exposure is the type of thing you want to do, Moobz. It doesn’t exactly shine well on feminism, no matter how you try to spin it.
@Stellascarlett
First of, welcome, stellascarlett.
Now, why do MRAs hate? That’s a tough question, and I suspect it has many contributing factors.
A part of it may be because of a culture of toxic masculinity that is reinforced through socialization and the media. The identity of men as masculine is very tied in to sexuality, you’re supposed to have sex and be sexually aggressive if you want to be a real man. The feeling of belonging to a group is very important to people, so men may adopt these behaviors in order to fit in better. I’m a guy and I’m speaking from experience on this count, I’ve done and said some creepy stuff when I was younger because I was always kind of a weird kid and that helped me be accepted into the group. I have since realized that I was being an asshole and have tried to be better about it.
Another part seems to be a lack of social relationships with women. A lot of these MRAs constantly talk about reality shows or TV shows like Sex in the City and they don’t seem to actually know any women personally. This may be related to the first point, in that they only see women as sex objects and as such don’t see any reason to establish a relationship with women.
Also, they seem to be extremely self-centered. A lot of MRAs say a lot of awful stuff about women, yes, but if you pay attention they don’t exactly like men either. They rarely talk to each other in a friendly manner, they deride men showing emotion or being interested in non-“masculine” pursuits, and they don’t really care about men who are different, like gay men, black men, fat men and others.
Then there’s the fact that many of them are abusers, and often will pretty much admit to it even though they don’t actually use the term abuser, they are violent and controlling and due to that their wives or girlfriends leave them. And since they are self-absorbed they don’t believe that anything they did was wrong, so the fault must lie with the woman.
These are my thoughts on the matter at least. Of course, they’re based on my own interpretation of what I’ve read from MRAs, so I could be wrong on some things and I’m certain there are other contributing factors. Sorry for the wall of text.
The point of the post is that Paul Elam and JohnTheOther love to exaggerate their victimhood by blowing a fairly mild street confrontation up into a fight with dozens of boxcutter-wielding feminist thugs. I’m not sure how pointing out that they are lying liars (who lie) reflects poorly on feminism.
Uh… I’m not sure if giving this video exposure is the type of thing you want to do, Moobz. It doesn’t exactly shine well on feminism, no matter how you try to spin it.
*gasp* Feminists are human! Sometimes we do dumb-ass things, sometimes we get emotional and aren’t able to articulate an argument well, sometimes we even disagree! (I, for one, think that tearing down other people’s posters is a shitty thing to do–not comparable to rape or assault, of course, just obnoxious–while others here think it was an appropriate action to take.) Aside from the fact that the real point othe post is to point out that JtO and Paul Elam are lying liars who lie, we do feminism no favors by trying to cover up or hide mistakes that are made. Their refusal to acknowledge their mistakes, engage in healthy debate, and clean house is one of the many, many reasons the MRM is so pitiful.
Would we get pissed at people for tearing down posters that, even though the message wasn’t blatantly hateful, the URL at the bottom led to the KKK website? Or to a site trying to further the rights of pedophiles? No, we wouldn’t, and likewise, a poster that sends viewers to a voice for men is not only OK to be torn down, but it SHOULD be torn down. There’s no reason for hate, calls for violence, and all the other bigotry to get the exposure of hanging on a crowded street. I would most certainly tear these posters down anywhere I saw them and I applaud anyone else who does, whether on private or public property.
Oh look, Pell Seemings and Boring Twit are back. Is it playtime in the troll nursery?
Just like it totally reflected poorly on the now Senator Al Franken.
@Some Guy
People tear down and deface posters all of the time. Even innocuous posters that advertise for roommates or sporting events are torn down. In case you haven’t noticed, people are dicks.
http://manboobz.com/2012/08/28/fake-spooge-and-rape-jokes-a-new-frontier-in-mens-rights-activism/
And yes I agree that it is acceptable to tear down MRA posters, because I believe that they promote misogyny. I’m sure you would tear down feminist posters because in your mind they promote misandry. Vegans tear down posters for McDonald’s. Pacifists tear down posters for Military Enlistment. People tear down posters. If you want, put them back up. But don’t whine about your posters being taken down. Everyone’s posters are taken down.
“Uh… I’m not sure if giving this video exposure is the type of thing you want to do, Moobz. It doesn’t exactly shine well on feminism, no matter how you try to spin it.”
Anyone who thinks this video makes the MRM look good has severe comprehension difficulties.
I should clarify
But don’t whine about your posters being taken down as though it is an assault comparable to rape or violence.
Except the point is that a) this event was not the epic street fight with box-cutter wielding mangina street toughs it was sold as and b) this kind of thing is pretty normal in the lives of actual activists (as opposed to, say, men’s rights activists, who seem to think invading feminist spaces on reddit is some kind of activism).
What else was I going to say? Oh yeah. Now if only Paul Elam were as unequivocally anti-rape as you want Futrelle to be about tearing some fucking posters down, feminists might have a harder time condoning the tearing down of advertisements for AVfM.
I mean, jesus fucking mary on a strudel, how much time have you spent pestering Elam to take down Thomas Ball’s call to violence accessible from AVfM’s fucking front page, and how much time have you spent whinging about downvotes on the reddit posts featured over here?
Moral blindness much?
I was just playing the GWW video in the OP for reference and I got to the part where GWW points out that the poster can’t be misogynist because it says
The lack of self-awareness is mind-boggling. Just look at how many MRAs hate and fear women because of the drummed up bogeygirl of false rape accusations. Paul Elam alone qualifies as a misogynist by JTO and GWW’s acknowledged standard. Yet there is no end to the shit fits thrown and invalid comparisons to race relations MRAs will throw out if a woman dares to say she’s afraid of men in public at night, or when she’s alone, or because too many men have assaulted or taken advantage of her in the past.
All I can say is keep fucking that chicken, Some Schtick.
someguy wrote:
I lol’d.
Here’s what I think about “poster-gate”.
They have the right to put the posters up – that’s beyond dispute. Equally, people have a right to take them down or deface them. Because JtO et al are MRAs, they blow this out of all proportions and start indulging in histrionics. They can’t help it, it’s how they roll. They’re MRAs, everything is a conspiracy.
Now, for me, the question is whether or not it is useful to the anti-MRA cause to remove the posters or challenge those putting them up.
The answer to that is a resounding no. Let’s remember what these posters do – direct people to the AVfM website. That alone will be enough to filter out everyone except those with existing levels of bitterness and a desire to direct it somewhere. As has been done already, directing people to this website, via a sticker, would be more than enough to deal with this.
Not to challenging those putting the posters up. This is entirely counter-productive. MRAs *want* attention, especially confrontation. They thrive on it. I counted *two* MRAs, one of whom looked incredibly shifty and embarrassed to be there. JtO is revelling in his martyr status and will continue to do so. The best thing to do would be to film them doing it, carnival atmosphere, laugh at them, point out to them how ridiculous they are.
I completely understand the direct action – if I was to see that kind of thing happening near me, I’d want to do something. But sometimes doing nothing, or less than you’d like, is the hardest thing.
There’s a serious danger of crediting MRAs/the MRM will having a lot more power than they actually do.
Oh no 3 hipsters tearing down like one poster while arguing with a guy looks so bad on feminism. XD
@Some Guy
Yes, because 9/11 had everything to do with free speech and because tearing down posters is exactly the same as killing people. Are you serious?
no dude, what this post does is make fun of a whiny, thin-skinned dude who deliberately blew a few posters getting blown out of proportion until it sounded like a lynch mob, then posted video that directly contradicted his sad little shitfit.
i know youre also a whiny, thin-skinned dude who cant deal with the fact that people think the shit he he does is stupid, but if you wanna change that you should invest in some minimal ass reading comprehension skills.
it would be pretty easy for you to start your own blog instead of passive aggressively simpering about how this not the blog you want it to be, but you seem to be constitutionally incapable of doing anything for yourself. this is not david’s fault.