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a voice for men antifeminism antifeminst women cuteness drama kings evil women false accusations FemRAs grandiosity johntheother kitties men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA narcissism paranoia paul elam rape rape jokes shit that never happened the poster revolution has begun

Posters getting torn down: A crime against humanity? (Includes video footage of JohnTheOther’s epic confrontation with alleged box-cutter wielding gang.)

Farting kittens: The real oppressors?

So I’ve been mostly avoiding writing about the whole Men’s Rights postering controversy in Vancouver, because it’s such a tempest in a teapot. The tl;dr: Some posters got torn down, and some of the people tearing them down yelled at the blabby MRA videoblogger and A Voice for Men second fiddle known as JohnTheOther.

MRAs: Given that virtually none of you have any experience as actual real world activists, you may not be aware of this, but POSTERS GET TORN DOWN. It’s annoying, and I don’t support it myself, but it happens all the time. Sometimes, you may actually run across people tearing down your posters, at which point there is usually some sort of awkward confrontation that may include yelling.

You know what you do when this happens? You put your posters up again. You know what you don’t do? Compare the experience to rape. Because, on the list of the grand injustices of the world, having posters torn down is pretty far down the list, somewhere around “stubbing your toe” and “kitten farts on you.”

That said, here are a few new “developments” in this ongoing epic.

1) Jezebel has posted a piece about the controversy. The most interesting thing about it is the following quote from, you guessed it, JohnTheOther, who apparently had this to say to someone from a local “community-driven news” website. The topic? False accusations of rape.

Maybe it’s a mistaken accusation, she doesn’t remember who she had sex with because she was drunk at the party or whatever. Some make accusations that have nothing to do with being raped; they’re angry, or they got stood up, they wanted to have sex with a guy but he said no. The fact that our society doesn’t have a balance for this is a major problem. I’m not suggesting every woman you meet is a loose cannon, but every woman you meet has the potential to be one, because for those few who are nutty, there’s no disincentive for them to go, oh, I was late for work. I know, I’ll just say I got raped.

Now, if the Men’s Rights movement were an actual civil rights movement trying to better the lives of men, this quote would be a public relations disaster. What real civil rights movement would want to have itself associated with someone who seems to think that women make up rape accusations willy nilly, when a date stands them up or when they need an excuse for being late to work?

Of course, the Men’s Rights “movement” isn’t an actual civil rights movement at all; it’s more like a collective tantrum. While MRAs are eager to “spread the word,” the more spreading they do, the more damage they do to themselves. No one is better at making MRAs look bad than MRAs themselves, which is why on this blog I spend so much of the time letting these (mostly) dudes make themselves look ridiculous with their own words. So, JtO, thanks?

2) And speaking of Mr. TheOther, we can now see video footage of the supposed dramatic confrontation that JohnTheOther had with what his AVFM boss Paul Elam called “a gang of 20-30 assholes on the street, some wielding box cutters.”

GirlWritesWhat, one of the Men’s Rights movement’s few non-dudes, has put up selections of video footage from Mr. TheOther in her video below.

As you’ll see – unless for some reason GWW has decided not to post the most incriminating parts of the video — there was no gang; it was a small group of people. No one was “wielding box cutters” in a threatening manner. The whole thing took place in broad daylight on a busy street.

Some posters were taken down. There were some raised voices. That’s it. That’s the sort of shit activists deal with every fucking day of their life.

Here’s the video:

Am I missing something here? This non-event is the alleged confrontation that AVFM has been hyperventilating about all this time? This is the evil anti-MRA harassment that Elam says “makes getting bestially raped by Richard Dawkins sound kinda funny.”

Leave it to Mr. Elam to add a rape-joke cherry to this bullshit sundae. Once again, MRAs are their own worst enemies.

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Cliff Pervocracy (@pervocracy)

“We suspect of others what we know to be true of ourselves.”

–quote not originally about MRAs and false-accusation-paranoia, but it fits so well, doesn’t it?

jumbofisch
jumbofisch
8 years ago

Haha wow a group of people looking and complaining about posters=gang of boxcutter wielding people? XDXDD

lowquacks
lowquacks
8 years ago

Is this guy under the impression that other posters are left up eternally and occasionally lovingly fed and watered by passersby, or…? Maybe Vancouver’s a really really clean polite city or something but surely you could disabuse yourself of that notion by, perhaps, being in an urban area with open eyes for more than about half an hour.

Snowy
8 years ago

Wait, so some people laughing at you is this terrible hate crime? No wonder they get in such a tizzy about mbz.

lowquacks
lowquacks
8 years ago

Also Canadian accents are fantastic. Closest I could see to boxcutters was, like, maybe one of the guys around was called Stanley or something?

Anyway, it’s surprising to see a hoarding like that (looks like a building under construction) with any literature on it that isn’t a debate on the merits of Mr. Bill Posters’ case. I always assumed that was for some kind of safety reason, but apparently posters are fine or at least commonly put up up on them up Vancouver-way?

lowquacks
lowquacks
8 years ago

“Men are smarter than women, biologically… If any of you guys come to your senses, become reasonable…”

Where did this dude get his ideas about what effective advertising might entail, anyway? Couldn’t he at least play up the custody thing or the “dating marketplace” thing or something that people who are only slightly misogynistic rather than flat-out raving sexists might buy pretty easily and relate to?

lowquacks
lowquacks
8 years ago

And who the hell puts apostrophes in lolcat speech to represent shortening? Just type fonnetiklli.

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

I read an article today in one of our newspapers by representatives from the Environmental Party. They argue that the Stockholm City Council ought to arrange a men’s shelter for male victims of DV. They claim that one out of six DV victims is male. If you merely look at DV victims who need hospital treatment for their injuries the number is lower still – BUT these men still EXIST. Often they have nowhere to turn, so there should be a men’s shelter.

So this is campaigned for not by MRA:s, but by a mainstream political party, a party that has an explicit feminist ideology.

Just saying.

lowquacks
lowquacks
8 years ago

@Dvärghundspossen

And I bet they managed without writing articles that threaten violence against women as a whole or use derogatory terms for sex workers over 50 times! Any advertising material was probably prettier too…

ShadetheDruid
ShadetheDruid
8 years ago

Hah, the phrase “collective tantrum” is perfect.

Wilson
Wilson
8 years ago

She really likes the sound of her own voice. It’s brutal. There’s no way I could watch an entire one of her videos.

I remember once on YouTube I saw a video of a young man talking to the camera about the MRM – wearing a ski or hockey mask!!! It was absolutely bizarre – and scary. How could anyone possibly think that’s okay?

inu
inu
8 years ago

… and yet this is the same group of people who feels that women’s reports of sexual assault are dramatically overblown.

The irony, it burns.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

To be fair, cat farts are pretty bad. However, is JtO new to cities? What does he think happens to posters? Hell, for the longest time in Seattle, there was a poster ban.

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

Lowquacks, yeah, I read the entire article and found not a single threat or “whore”. Imagine!

Morchella
Morchella
8 years ago

I used to moonlight as a poster hanger for a music collective in Vancouver, years ago. Other people tearing down your posters is pretty much par for the course. I mean, sometimes the posters I’d spent half an evening hanging were mostly gone by the next morning, and it’s not like I was hanging anything that people find offensive.

Plus, JtO was putting up his little nuggets of wisdom in probably the leftiest area of the city. He must not actually go there much if he finds the residents’ reaction surprising.

Morchella
Morchella
8 years ago

@hellkell – The city of Vancouver even has people who are paid to go around and tear down posters, though usually only on public property. There are also a lot of rules about where and how you can hang them on public property, though it doesn’t sound like JtO was breaking any of those.

Nepenthe
Nepenthe
8 years ago

Because, on the list of the grand injustices of the world, having posters torn down is pretty far down the list, somewhere around “stubbing your toe” and “kitten farts on you.”

Clearly spoken by someone who has not experienced my owner’s flatulence. That cat is rotten on the inside. Her favorite move is the “fart and run” near my face when I’m laying in bed.

ostara321
ostara321
8 years ago

“We suspect of others what we know to be true of ourselves.”

Bingo. Projection, they haz it.

Buttman
Buttman
8 years ago

Feminists = Neighbourhood Bully

blitzgal
8 years ago

Jezebel has posted an update on this story, in the form of a letter written by the woman who wanted to have a debate on this topic. The original article mentioned that she cancelled the event due to “threats” but did not specify who was making the threats. Her letter makes it clear that it was the MRAs who were threatening her. She’s had to delete her Facebook account because her employment is at risk now that they know her personal information.

Stay classy, MRAs.

opium4themasses
opium4themasses
8 years ago

Obviously, tearing down posters is worse harassment than threats and attempts to get someone fired. Whodathunk it. Offer the MRAs a space to speak and they promptly piss all over it.

Best. Activists. Ever.

ShadetheDruid
ShadetheDruid
8 years ago

blitzgal: Just when you think MRAs can’t get any worse.. Plus, more evidence that they just don’t give a shit about men at all, when they’re sabotaging opportunities to get their viewpoint out there.

So much for spreading the word about the “plight of men”.

Sweet Dreams 893
Sweet Dreams 893
8 years ago

This brings to mind the post John “theother” wrote about western women having the social development of a 4 year old. “Excepting a tiny minority, it appears that Western women, through a failure of socialization, are trapped at the socialized developmental level of a 4 year old child, or a chimpanzee.” http://www.avoiceformen.com/women/socialized-psychopathy-modeling-female-misbehaviour/

I don’t know why the guy even bothers denying he hates women, with the exception of the ones who serve his purposes. I really hate watching this woman blabbing because she just goes on and on and on and on but I did get through it and all I can see is that, as usual, they get all crazy and hysterical when anyone disagrees with their views which is all that’s going on here.

On the other hand, the more they talk, the clearer it becomes that they are, indeed, a hate group. Paul Elam and JtO both are nuts.

2-D Man
2-D Man
8 years ago

Lowquacks, that’s specifically a western Canadian accent. It changes significantly as one moves east across the country. I guarantee that aworldanonymous’ accent sounds very different from mine.

Wait…. is JohntheOther actually from Vancouver? If so, I kind of want to move now.

Rutee Katreya
8 years ago

Jesus tapdancing christ, thanks for the update, Blitzgal.

Missy M.
8 years ago

Yes, “collective tantrum” is the most apt description on MRA’s that I’ve heard yet.

Shaenon
8 years ago

I have to admit, I’ve been curious for a while now about John’s tragic assault by a gang of 20 boxcutter-weilding thugs and his heroic battle for his very life, as described by John himself and many other passing MRAs.

I can’t believe he actually posted the video, revealing that what actually happened was pretty much what I figured it was: getting into an incoherent argument about feminism with two angry hipsters.

Howard Bannister
Howard Bannister
8 years ago

@Dvärghundspossen: Yeah, that is one more piece of wood for the fire. The one where we’re burning the idea that the MRM has every done anything to actually help men. See also: totally a hate movement.

drst
drst
8 years ago

I’ve had more dramatic confrontations while waiting in line to go to the bathroom. Jesus wept.

freitag235
freitag235
8 years ago

Late to the party.

That was the epic confrontation between JtO and the box-cutter-wielding mob of feminist activists who menaced his very life?

Really?

Um, I am less than awestricken. Nice choice of kitten to illustrate the drama.

Sheesh. Angry mobs just aren’t what they used to be.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

OFCOURSE it was a couple pissed hipsters. I didn’t believe for a second that JtO was met by a box-cutter wielding mob. HA.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

There must be some way to watch that without GWW’s stupid smirk showing up. I love how she’s all “AH HA! I caught you in the imputation of malice, evul feminist” because omg what a surprise that people contradict themselves in emotional situations. Anyway, I didn’t watch the whole thing, but without a doubt the very best part is when John the Other has Chuck Norris paradropped in to break that alien’s leg, and then they all escape Los Angeles while the whole city and the earth beneath it somehow fall into a vast abyss.

cloudiah
8 years ago

Here’s the Jezebel story and the debate organizer’s description of what happened:

Oh Hi! I’m the woman in the article who was organizing the debate. I
have a few things to clarify.

1. I am a feminist. I have been since I was raped in high school and
my English teacher gave me the Female Eunuch to read. I have been
working for years to create safer spaces, restorative justice models
for sexual Perpetrators, inclusivity in hiring and training, promoting
women in technology and counter protesting Prolifers. I’ve made a lot
of friends and way more enemies doing all this, because the world is
pretty misogynistic. I fuck up all the time and try to learn from my
mistakes.

2.I had contacted over twenty people on either side of the debate to
speak and announced that I would post who was speaking as they
confirmed. Unsurprisingly the men from the MRA got back to me first
and I felt it only honest to post that they were speaking. In
hindsight lying would have made my life easier and not fucked up my
names google search. I still would have been honest if I could do it
all again.

3. I took the event down because of threats I had received from MRA
members when I told them I was thinking of cancelling the
event/changing the question. Having my Facebook account linked to here
has reduced my safety from these men, who didn’t have my personal
information as I was speaking with them over email. I have now had to
cancel my FB profile which impacts my job seriously. Luckily I am in
England right now so am safe.

I didn’t take the event down straight away when this happened because
I wanted to honor the community who were having some very heated
debate on the topic on the events wall. Ironically if I had just been
selfish and deleted it like nothing had happened and not apologised I
wouldn’t be name as a misogynist on one of my favorite Feminist
Websites.

4. In the article it is said that the debate was biased from the
outset because of the name of it. Debates are classically run with a
biased statement which you then have a Yes side and a No side to. The
topic “has feminism gone too far” is offensive to me too. It hurts
that this is a legitimate question in our society, but sadly I know
all too well that there are waaaaaay too many people who think this is
true. I wanted to address that.

5. I really do understand why people don’t think the fucktards from
the MRA deserved to speak in a public forum. I grew up watching and
attending many public debates where all sorts of outrageous topics
were discussed and every single time I learnt something. If, as
Feminists we think we know everything there is to know we’re gonna
fall on our faces. We have to be willing to learn, fuck up, forgive
and get better, because otherwise how are we going to expect any
Misogynists who see the light to learn and be forgiven? I know it’s
deluded to think the MRA’s have anything to teach us, but what if?
What if they learned something from us, what if someone in the
audience sees there are fucked up men in the world and decide to
dedicate their lives to fixing it? Yeah maybe it would have been a
cluster fuck, but I just wanted to give it go. Anyone who didn’t want
to go, didn’t have to go.

I was willing to change the name of the debate and even the speakers,
but never got a chance to consult the community, for whom I was
putting this debate on for.

6. The things I have learned from this include:
a) When you are organizing an event which could be contentious make up
a fake name/organization. People are cruel when you fuckup and it gets
personal.
b) Organize your shit better because people will assume the worst about you.
c) Keep trying new things. A diversity of tactics is the only way we
can improve the lives of women all over the world.

In conclusion, I am genuinely sorry. I fucked up.

red_locker
8 years ago

You know how superheroes and supervillains have epic clashes that shatter entire cities, nations, worlds and even universes?

This is not one of those times. This is more like one guy trying to document their Totally Awesome Skateboarding Trick, only to fall into a pile of manure.

Ayla
Ayla
8 years ago

God damnit, I wanted a bloody fucking boxcutter fight. Ripped off!

cloudiah
8 years ago

Oops, I forgot to include the link.

And here is JtO claiming that the debate was cancelled because of “feminist harassment. The lying douchecanoe.

And now he is saying that the debate is back on. Format: 3 speakers, two of whom are the two original MRA speakers talked about in the Jezebel article. Well, that certainly seems fair! MRAs pick the venue, the format, and get to be the majority (if not the totality) of the speakers.

Gee, I wonder who GWW will declare the winner of that “debate?” The suspense is killing me.

freitag235
freitag235
8 years ago

Angry mob: This is more like it.

cloudiah
8 years ago

For “angry mob,” I would also have accepted something like this.

blitzgal
8 years ago

@cloudiah — The venue is at the car dealership owned by one of the speakers. Oh yeah, this event is going to be about as fair and balanced as Fox News is.

red_locker
8 years ago

@ cloudiah and blitzgal: Wow, that is fucked. MRAs digging their own hole by the day, it seems.

Feel sorry for the organizer.

freitag235
freitag235
8 years ago

Oh no, red_locker. This will give the MRAs a chance to show off their mad debating skillz, y’see. They’ll fuck up the shit of the feminazi opponents who dare defy the mighty MRM!

Yah, right. I hope somebody tapes it for posterity.

Fembot
8 years ago

What a bunch of losers. I’m sorry, but I feel a bout of shaming language coming on. What a bunch of neck bearded basement dwelling tin foil hat wearing drama queen LOSERS!!!!

ShadetheDruid
ShadetheDruid
8 years ago

I hope somebody tapes it for posterity. – Freitag

I misread that as “I hope somebody tapes it for posterior”.

Cliff Pervocracy (@pervocracy)

Is it just me, or does this debate format make no sense:

“Has feminism gone too far?” and Three speakers presenting arguments against the proposition. Each speaker will have 5 minutes to present an opening argument, alternating between for- and against postions. Following opening arguments, each speaker will have 5 minutes to address presented arguments. A third round of discussion will allow 3 minutes to address counter arguments, and final statements will be formatted within 3 minutes per speaker, for a total of four rounds of discussion for all speakers.

So… every speaker is going to argue against the proposition?
Or each speaker is going to argue both for and against the proposition?

I think what he means is that it’s going to be a 2-on-1 debate, which still makes little sense–giving one side twice the people and twice the time is going to make the organizers’ bias pretty damn obvious.

The only question now is whether they get an MRA to present a deliberately strawmanny and weaksauce “pro-feminist” viewpoint, or if they cancel the event again when they realize no feminist speaker is going to take that bait.

freitag235
freitag235
8 years ago

IF, and I emphasize IF, it’s going to be a proper debate, then each side needs to cite their sources. I would dearly love to see/hear/read one defend the “90% of rape allegations are false” bullshit.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
8 years ago

The only question now is whether they get an MRA to present a deliberately strawmanny and weaksauce “pro-feminist” viewpoint, or if they cancel the event again when they realize no feminist speaker is going to take that bait.

Yeah, I think they would run their debate like how Bill O’ Reilly does his show, shout down anyone who disagrees and then declare themselves the winner. Not to mention I think it’s very dangerous to interact with MRA’s in person.

Ayla
Ayla
8 years ago

Oh somebody please post the name of the dealership where this farce will be held. I’ll bet it could use some yelp reviews.

cloudiah
8 years ago

The MRA blitz attack on the original debate organizer remind me a bit of the conservative response to that guy who bear-hugged Obama: flooding his restaurant’s Yelp page with fake negative reviews. Because there’s no better way to show your side supports freedom and small businesses than destroying the business of someone who disagrees with you!

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
8 years ago

I want to know how an MRA has enough money to own a car dealership. I thought they all had to pay 95% of their income to child support, according to all of the tales they tell at reddit: men’s rights.

ostara321
ostara321
8 years ago

Their poster feels sort of like a thinly veiled threat. “Do you hate and fear men? DO YOU?” feels like a Dirty Harry rip off of “Well? Do ya punk?”

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