Categories
a voice for men antifeminism are these guys 12 years old? dozens of upvotes grandiosity homophobia incoherent rage melodrama MRA narcissism paul elam rape jokes reddit the poster revolution has begun

Splitsville! Paul Elam starts a rival Men’s Rights subreddit, where he can ban people

It was, perhaps, inevitable, and now it has come to pass: obviously fed up with Men’s Rights Redditors questioning his wisdom (and his tactics, and his general narcissistic assholery) on a fairly regular basis, A Voice for Men Supreme Leader Paul Elam has started up his own Men’s Rights subredditr/mensrightsactivists –in which he can summarily ban all ”armchair activists” and “white knights” and “people who disagree with him.” Yep, that’s right: he’s made like a Trotskyist banana, and split.

Elam has long had a fairly strained relationship with Reddit MRAs. If you search through his comment history on Reddit, you can see evidence of numerous meltdowns on his part, which occur fairly regularly whenever anyone challenges him on pretty much anything, even when they are otherwise sympathetic to his views. On his own blog, he responds to such criticism by quickly banning the critics; on Reddit, he has tended to respond with schoolyard insults, digs at the masculinity of his critics, long recitations of his many fine accomplishments as a dedicated armchair activist, and the occasional rape joke.

Clearly the final straw for Elam was the reception given to a post of his on the poster controversy I wrote about here.  Some samples from the discussion. Builtbro offers a substantive critique of Elam’s badly worded posters:

HolyCounsel is a bit more blunt:

And then there’s this edifying exchange:

The massive numbers of upvotes for Elam’s critics and downvotes for his, er, rebuttals seem to be at least partially the result of an invasion from r/SubredditDrama. Still, Elam seems to take each and every downvote personally, so the 238 net downvotes on his “Kleenex” comment must have stung.

In his new subreddit, threads like these clearly won’t be allowed to happen. As Elam explains in his less-than-welcoming “Welcome” message to new visitors:

While dissenters and the blue pill public will be welcome to post links and comment, trolls and other annoyances will be summarily booted with pleasure. This is an MRA dominated zone.

A couple of things to consider: Dissent, especially that which serves to further the improvement of the men’s movement, is welcome and appreciated. But if you want to post here, as a supposed MRA, telling others what is wrong with their work, you better have some MRA credentials.

Inactive, armchair quarterbacks, are not allowed here, unless their posts reflect genuine concern for improving and supporting the MRM and respect for those actually doing the work. If you want to ask questions so that you can learn, that is fine. But if you want to question, just so you can tear down, and you are not an MRA, then it will be adios for you. I’d sooner give a feminist the floor than a back seat driver.

R/mensrightsactivists: Come for the Elam-approved opinions, stay for the bans! Indeed, Elam devotes as much space in his “welcome” message to explaining whom he’ll ban as he does to actually spelling out what the subreddit will ostensibly do differently than good old r/mensrights.

Of course, this is not the first time that some angry MRA or two has decided to start another Men’s Rights subreddit designed to appeal to more, well, belligerent  MRAs. Reddit already boasts an assortment of such subreddits, all of them fairly sparsely populated, including Rights4Men, Male Studies, and FeMRAs, a more obnoxious alternative to the already sparsely populated LadyMRAs. There’s even another subreddit devoted to MRA activism; it goes by the name of, well, MRAactivism. (There may be several more, but I can’t remember what they’re called.)

The Men’s Rights subreddit has nearly 45,000 subscribers; Elam’s new subreddit currently has 49, which is no doubt why he continues to post links to his blog in the original Men’s Rights subreddit. Whether Elam’s new subreddit succeeds and splits the MRM in two, or dies an inglorious death, one thing is sure: there will be plenty of new material for me here at Man Boobz.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

382 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

date rape (date-a-thug rape); too-drunk-to-notice rape (too drunk to give consent);

The funny thing about these two is (for MRA values of funny), even if you think that women should have known better, nothing in their definition denies that the rape took place. It’s like “Wow, you’re stupid” *double take* “WOW, YOU’RE STUPID!!”

Snowy
Snowy
8 years ago

Actually this is old news for Chuckeedee. He’s been blathering on about full-moon rape for a while now. Dude needs some new material.

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
8 years ago

The MRM, not even as great a civil rights movement as the Twilight fandom

Shadow, you owe me a new cup of tea. I spat the one I had all over my screen 🙁

red_locker
8 years ago

Seconding all the recommendations of FMA, even though the show is far from perfect (that award goes to Cowboy Beebop and Akira, IMO).

Angel Beats is pretty good, too, though it’s not for everyone.

Gametime
Gametime
8 years ago

Well, shit, no wonder Chuck thinks Paul Elam is a “moderate,” if his own view is that rape is the fault of the survivor for being anywhere near a rapist.

Gametime
Gametime
8 years ago

Both versions of Fullmetal Alchemist are pretty fantastic; I prefer the first anime, because I felt it was more thematically tight (and a lot of the extra cast from the second anime/manga seemed superfluous), but you really can’t go wrong with either.

On the subject of alchemy in anime, Baccano! is also amazing.

cloudiah
8 years ago

Snowy, I may regret asking this, but what is chuckie’s view on “full moon rape?” Or chuckie, you may answer yourself if you come back to share your views on the definition of “thug.”

Snowy
Snowy
8 years ago

Well, I don’t think he’s ever actually explained what “full moon rape” is supposed to be but he’s talked about it here on mbz before and also at FtB and on reddit so I mean, it must be something that he’s thought a lot about and would be able to describe, right?

*crossing fingers that all those links work*

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
8 years ago

“Full moon rape” sounds like one of those unsettling just-so stories about how come stars exist or something. :p

cloudiah
8 years ago

wow, I missed that when he posted here last.

blitzgal
8 years ago

So, here is why comments about jury nullification in rape cases are just so infuriating. There are estimates that upwards of 250,000 untested rape kits are just sitting in evidence lockers in this country, not processed. So here is the story of Kym Worthy, a Detroit prosecutor who has spent the past 3 years fighting to get the city’s 11,000 rape kits processed. In the first summer of their program, they have identified 20 serial rapists, and one SERIAL KILLER who went on to rape and murder five women AFTER he raped a woman whose kit was NEVER PROCESSED.

That’s right, MRA assholes. Rape is barely investigated in this country, let alone convicted. We literally allow serial killers to operate rather than do basic investigatory work on rape crimes. I cannot stress what I’m about to say enough: GO FUCK YOURSELVES. Your movement is beyond disgusting. It is a cesspool of filth and hatred and you can fucking rot in hell, all of you.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/08/28/rapists-beware-detroit-prosecutor-ids-21-attackers-in-rape-kit-probe.html

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

I tried to think whether the phrase “real rape” ever makes sense. I could come up with ONE scenario where it does:
You’re at some kind of BDSM party, and happens to open a door to a room where a guy seems to rape a woman who goes all “NOOO STOOOP!”. Then another person tells you “it’s alright, it’s not real rape, they had totally decided to do a rape scene and she was gonna cry NO STOP but they have another word for a safe word”.

That’s actually the only context I could think of where it makes sense to say “It wasn’t real rape because…”. And that’s a pretty specific one.

(I mean, there are obviously loads of other scenarios you could think of where there wasn’t any RAPE period – like every time two people have consensual sex – but that’s another matter.)

howardbann1ster
howardbann1ster
8 years ago

Exactly, Dvärghundspossen. The only thing the words “real rape” are saying–just like “legitimate rape”–is that there’s all this stuff out there feminists are calling rape, but it’s not really.

Because you just can’t possibly take a woman’s word for it that she’s been raped.

Which ties back into how they can’t see what Roosh is saying as rape. Because it’s really important to deny, deny, deny. Redefine! Anything! It’s not REALLY rape!

…I’m feeling a little ill now.

Cliff Pervocracy (@pervocracy)

You’re at some kind of BDSM party, and happens to open a door to a room where a guy seems to rape a woman who goes all “NOOO STOOOP!”. Then another person tells you “it’s alright, it’s not real rape, they had totally decided to do a rape scene and she was gonna cry NO STOP but they have another word for a safe word”.

Personally, I think it’s irresponsible and inconsiderate as hell to do those scenes at a party unless all the attendees have gotten a heads-up and agreed. But that’s just me being persnickety; it’s clearly not real rape anyway.

leftwingfox
8 years ago

Kitty?

Wetherby
Wetherby
8 years ago

Dvärghundspossen – there’s also faked rape for dramatic film/TV/theatre purposes.

But in virtually all cases (and certainly all legitimate ones) the performers will have written consent, and even if passers-by get confused, it should all be straightened out in a matter of seconds.

katz
8 years ago

leftwingfox is a fox-like kitty.

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

@Wetherby, yeah I just realized when walking the dogs. Like, suppose you see what looks like a man raping a woman, you’re gonna call the police, and then somebody goes “No, that’s not REAL RAPE, because they’re actors shooting a movie!”

So, er, TWO very specific contexts where it totally makes sense to say “that’s not real rape”.

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

Besides, WTF is with all these people who think women lie about being raped just because they regret they had sex with somebody? I’m not saying women never lie about being raped, obviously such cases EXIST, but… the idea that women might do this just because they REGRET SEX?

I mean, suppose I’ve had a drunken one-night-stand with Mr Douchebag, whom I normally detest, and only slept with because I was drunk and desperately horny (although not at all helplessly drunk). It was totally consensual, but next day I’m like “WTF, I slept with Douchebag??? AAARRRGH!”.

So I’d rather prefer if nobody knew about it, because it’s so embarrassing, but unfortunately people saw us leave the party together, and Mr Douchebag totally tells everybody. What do I do?

Well, if people think it was consensual sex the worst case scenario is that some people think I’m a slut and a moron for sleeping with Douchebag and look down on me for a while – and then forget about it and find other things to gossip about. Best case scenario is that my friends just laugh at me for my terrible taste in men when drunk and horny and forget about it almost immediately.

IF, on the other hand, I tell everybody that he RAPED me, I can be pretty certain that lots of people are gonna think I’m an evil slut and slanderer, because Mr Douchebag is after all NO MONSTER; and everybody knows only monsters rape people, and therefore I must be a lying evil slut-bitch. If I have friends who believe me and support me, it’s also pretty likely that at least some of them are gonna think I’m BROKEN FOREVER because I’ve been raped, and treat me all weird from now on. And if I actually go to the police, I’m gonna have my sex-life and the way I dress etc etc dissected in court, and much more people are gonna believe that I’m an evil slut and slanderer. Particularly since the chances that Mr Douchebag gets convicted because I just made something up are pretty tiny. And then lots of people are gonna remember and talk about this whole thing for WAY longer than they’d ever be bothered with gossiping about two people who had a consensual one-night-stand.

So WHY ON EARTH would I want to go around telling people he raped me?

howardbann1ster
howardbann1ster
8 years ago

It makes a little more sense when you realize that a number of the people spreading the meme are doing so maliciously.

http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/

Social licenses to operate. The more they insist women who regret sex claim rape, the more rapists get away and the rapists fucking know that.

howardbann1ster
howardbann1ster
8 years ago

Er, that was in response to Dvärghundspossen. (quotes would make that more clear, eh?)

One final thought: who besides rapists benefits from the MRAs spreading the message that most rape isn’t “real”? (trick question: nobody. Just rapists)

crazyladyblues
crazyladyblues
8 years ago

Ok. Can’t get the kitty avatar (need flash player) so the next best thing. Hope it works.

clairedammit
clairedammit
8 years ago

At this point, if chuckeedee is not a troll, he’ll admit that “real rape” is a shitty thing to say, that PE didn’t say anything more specific than rape and thus that he meant all rapes, and as such that PE is an extremist.

Chuckee?

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

@Howardbannister: Gee, I just read the comments thread on your link. Or not all of it, but some. I can’t believe there are people who seriously thinks the solution to rape is that either all men or all women agree to gang up and attack and violently beat up rapists. Or rather, I do believe there are such people but that they’re probably fourteen and get their view on how the world works from action movies.

Like, a friend of mine got date-raped once. Suppose all us girls ganged up on the guy when he was alone and beat the crap out of him. And THEN what happens…? Well, if he recognized us he’d call the police, and possibly they’d manage to nail us for what we’d done. We’d end up in prison, and he’d be the innocent victim of a gang of crazy bitches. Or we could put on masks and not say anything while we beat him up. That way, we could be certain that he’d learn absolutely nothing from the experience. I mean, date-rapers don’t really self-identify as rapists or think they do anything wrong. He’d just think he had been randomly attacked by a gang of crazy thugs. And possibly we’d still end up in prison, even if he couldn’t identify us at the moment of the attack there’s a risk the police would eventually catch us. Gangs attacking people and beating them up (at least when their victims are well-adjusted middle class people) is a crime that the cops take seriously.
The only way I could see this working is if, like, an entire community would be ready to back us up and not tell the cops, because they thought he totally deserved it for date-raping my friend. That would be possible in a universe where everybody were totally willing to believe the victim and condemn any kind of rape as REAL rape and WRONG. But in that universe date-rape would already be a rare crime (to be fair, the point of this last paragraph WAS pointed out by someone in the thread).

I think people who think violent revenge is a solution simply thinks that rapists are all moustache-twirling villains who self-identify as evil and who obviously (to everyone around them) had it coming when they get the crap kicked out of them.

Gametime
Gametime
8 years ago

At this point, if chuckeedee is not a troll

There’s basically no chance of that.

howardbann1ster
howardbann1ster
8 years ago

Yeah, I remember that thread with a certainly fond head-banging hate.

More to the point, Captain Awkward had a really good thread recently on more or less the same subject.

http://captainawkward.com/2012/08/07/322-323-my-friend-group-has-a-case-of-the-creepy-dude-how-do-we-clear-that-up/

Notice the boyfriend of the second woman. He won’t stop hanging around with the creeper/rapist… and says sarcastically, “what do you want me to do, beat him up over something that happened a year and a half ago?”

Yeah. Because violence solves soooo many problems.

And if you have the option do nothing or beat up a freind, guess which way that actually comes out? (in both cases the circle of friends freeze out the women, not the offenders)

But that’s a male-privileged view; just beat them up, problem solved!

Yeah, no.

2-D Man
2-D Man
8 years ago

Currently well-established forms of unreal rape include:
date rape (date-a-thug rape);

No, that’s actually just regular, old rape. The real kind.

too-drunk-to-notice rape (too drunk to give consent);

Wait… you’d have sex with someone who was too drunk to notice? Why would you do that? Seriously, what would motivate you to do this?

Further, if you get really drunk, does that mean someone can stick their penis (or something else) in you and it’s not rape? Does it still count if the intoxicant isn’t all alcohol but maybe something else, like a combination of alcohol and MDMA or GHB? I mean, they still wouldn’t notice at the time.

changed-my-mind rape (the sex you regret the next day and claim absence/withdrawal of consent).

If you think the person you’re about to have sex with might change their mind, maybe you should just … (wait for it!) … not have sex with them!

I would expect the following categories to be formalized anytime soon:
take-back-the-night rape; full-moon rape; super-bowl rape; campus-late-at-night rape; campus-at-noon rape.

You’re not good at sarcasm. It comes off like bullying.

leftwingfox
8 years ago

Woohoo! Didn’t work on the initial post. 🙂

Social licenses to operate. The more they insist women who regret sex claim rape, the more rapists get away and the rapists fucking know that.

Yep. It’s telling that rape is the only crime where people think these excuses matter.

It’s still theft if the boyfriend steals his girlfriend’s car.
It’s still theft if someone is offered to “test drive” a new car, and heads to another country in it.
It’s still theft if someone refuses to return the car leased or lent to them.
It’s still theft if you take a car, just because the company claims to be “giving them away” in a promotion.
It’s still theft if it’s parked in the wrong neighbourhood, if the door was left open, or was given to a thief pretending to be a parking valet.
It’s still theft if you’re too drunk to understand the “designated driver” was offering to buy your car for five bucks.

And if a person tried to justify any of these, you’d probably be very suspicious of their motives when it came to your car.

razzby
razzby
8 years ago

Meow? Oh, man, kitties. Yay! See, now as a kitty, I don’t have to feel glum about not being counted as human by lots of obnoxious politicians.

/feline disdain_on

PsychoDan
8 years ago

Both versions of Fullmetal Alchemist are pretty fantastic; I prefer the first anime, because I felt it was more thematically tight (and a lot of the extra cast from the second anime/manga seemed superfluous), but you really can’t go wrong with either.

On the subject of alchemy in anime, Baccano! is also amazing.

The original is definitely better in some respects, but I always thought the ending was kind of dumb. And in that respect it looks even worse when compared to Brotherhood.

And seconding Baccano!, it’s one of the best shows in years.

razzby
razzby
8 years ago

Meow test?

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

Besides, this is one reason I hate those stupid Millenium (girl with the dragoon tattoo plus sequels) books that everyone else in this country (and quite a few Americans as well) seem to adore so much. Stieg Larsson seems to have believed that “patriarchy” and “rape culture” means “there are many moustache-twirling misogynistic villains in society”. How on Earth can people think these books are FEMINIST? I mean, that’s NOT how feminism understands patriarchy and rape culture, very much not.

Plus the male main character is so obviously based on the author and all women are dying to sleep with him, plus the female main character is described as having a beautiful face and magically being SUPER-duper-ultra-thin despite eating fast food all day (because it’s terrible when women are fat, but it’s also terrible if they’re vain enough to diet), and he doesn’t know how psychiatry works in Sweden (you can only take control of a person’s money against zir will if zie is very much insane and displays said insanity by wasting all her money away on weird stuff – this is VERY RARE and NEVER happens to anybody who is obviously sane enough to live in zir own apartment and keep a job). But the biggest problem probably is that all rapists are twirling their moustaches like that.

Gametime
Gametime
8 years ago

The original is definitely better in some respects, but I always thought the ending was kind of dumb. And in that respect it looks even worse when compared to Brotherhood.

I agree that the final bit of the ending is pretty stupid, but I liked the overall climax better. (Rot13’d for spoilers.) Zhfgnat’f svtug jvgu Oenqyrl sryg zber grafr, gb zr, naq gur birenyy gurzrf bs erfcbafvovyvgl naq crefbany pubvpr jrer, V sryg, orggre rzcunfvmrq va gur svefg frevrf, jvgu vgf rkcynangvba sbe gur Ubzhaphyv.

Nyfb, gur svtug jvgu Sngure ng gur raq bs Oebgureubbq sryg nagv-pyvznpgvp gb zr. But your mileage may vary.

howardbann1ster
howardbann1ster
8 years ago

Well, yeah. It’s the old ‘I have discovered racism and sexism! Quick, it is very important that I, a white man, explain it to you! Also, sometimes people with alternative sexualities are oppressed… I, a straight white man, am the best person to explain this!!”

But, uh, those books were kind of important to helping open my eyes up to the world when I was going through a period of questioning my unthinking right-wing religious upbringing.

So even though I’ve seen their feet of clay, I’ll always kind of be a little grateful to the spirit of Stieg Larsson.

katz
8 years ago

Dvarg: That was my exact reaction! I wrote a blog post about it.

If you portray rapists as total psychopaths who kidnap women and mutilate them, then you’re portraying milder forms of sexual abuse/violence against women as not being a problem, or else only being a problem because they’re a sign that the guy might later kidnap and mutilate you. And if he doesn’t, then he wasn’t really a rapist.

ShadetheDruid
ShadetheDruid
8 years ago

Gametime: Finally I get to use that Rot13 addon I installed like a million years ago! Pity I have no clue what the hell any of it means, even in English, but hey. 😛

blitzgal
8 years ago

Dvärghundspossen, I thought those books were so overrated. Anyone who’s read a bit of fan fiction knows that Blomkvist is a blatant Mary Sue, and Lisbeth is a total Manic Pixie Dream Girl. They are both so thinly written that they come across as cartoon characters. And then to top it all off, it’s all rape all the time. I admit, I only read the first one. I’ve been assured by friends that the second and third books do not feature so much rape, but I just can’t.

Gametime
Gametime
8 years ago

Blomkvist is definitely an idealized author avatar, and the books DEFINITELY can be criticized in the way their rape scenes are handled, but I don’t understand how Lisbeth is a Manic Pixie Dream Girl. She’s not really quirky, and if anything Blomkvist is the one who changes her perspective, rather than the other way around.

Unless I’m misunderstanding what the phrase means, it doesn’t seem to fit.

Sharculese
8 years ago

Well, yeah. It’s the old ‘I have discovered racism and sexism! Quick, it is very important that I, a white man, explain it to you! Also, sometimes people with alternative sexualities are oppressed… I, a straight white man, am the best person to explain this!!”

this is totally fair in regards to sexism idk about racism. larsson was a long time investigative reporter on the swedish right wing and white power movements and had to live semi-undercover for a large part of his life because of threats against him, so i feel like he kinda earned his bona fides on that point

katz
8 years ago

Conversation I had with my husband:

ME: And he has sex with every woman between the ages of 18 and 50!

HIM: Well, in the movie, he’s played by Daniel Craig.

ME: …Actually, it makes perfect sense then.

Sharculese
8 years ago

i listened to the millenium trilogy while i was doing spring cleaning which is probably for the best because i dont think i would have made it through all three of the books but it was good as a distraction

blitzgal
8 years ago

I could be misappropriating the term, but to me the Manic Pixie Dream Girl character is the enigmatic muse meant to capture the male gaze. She isn’t even really there for the main character of the fictional work — she is there for the male audience of the fictional work. She inspires action, lust, etc. but all the while, she is not a fully fleshed character in her own right. She might as well be the object of a painting or a sculpture. And in modern work, she tends to be spritely, with zany hair and fashion.

howardbann1ster
howardbann1ster
8 years ago

this is totally fair in regards to sexism idk about racism. larsson was a long time investigative reporter on the swedish right wing and white power movements and had to live semi-undercover for a large part of his life because of threats against him, so i feel like he kinda earned his bona fides on that point

Hmm, yes. Some of that is my residual frustration from just watching a bunch of movies about racism and then noticing after the fact that they were all directed by white men. (most of them notably without such credentials as Larsson had)

katz
8 years ago

this is totally fair in regards to sexism idk about racism. larsson was a long time investigative reporter on the swedish right wing and white power movements and had to live semi-undercover for a large part of his life because of threats against him, so i feel like he kinda earned his bona fides on that point

Regardless of his credentials, he’s still a white guy, so he’s still acting authoritative about something that he’s only studied and other people have actually experienced. (Not that one can never write about oppression of another demographic, but the more one casts oneself as the arbiter of knowledge on the subject, the more you’re on weak ground.)

howardbann1ster
howardbann1ster
8 years ago

@blitzgal–one of the best parts of the two sequels is that she does get fleshed out a lot more, becomes more a real character, even at times the main viewpoint character, stealing that role more and more from the dude. (as it should be)

katz
8 years ago

I could be misappropriating the term, but to me the Manic Pixie Dream Girl character is the enigmatic muse meant to capture the male gaze. She isn’t even really there for the main character of the fictional work — she is there for the male audience of the fictional work. She inspires action, lust, etc. but all the while, she is not a fully fleshed character in her own right. She might as well be the object of a painting or a sculpture. And in modern work, she tends to be spritely, with zany hair and fashion.

MPDG is a really specific classification, so I wouldn’t apply it to Salander, but you’re absolutely right about the othering: Blomkvist is “normal” in every respect (middle-aged, middle-class, dresses normally, etc); Salander is “weird” in every respect.

From a literary perspective, I think the problem with Blomkvist and Salander is simply that they didn’t need two protagonists! The only reason they both need to exist is so one can rescue the other at the end; pawn that duty off on someone else (there are several possibilities) and you could use a single protagonist and simplify the narrative immensely.

Sharculese
8 years ago

@katz

that’s all true, yeah. i mean, to be honest i don’t really recall how much was ‘let me tell you what it’s like to experience racism’ vs. ‘let me tell you what these assholes are like’.

leftwingfox
8 years ago

Brotherhood took me a little time to get used to, largely because I preferred the deliberate pacing and direction of the original to that of Brotherhood. The episode where the two series part ways finally also seemed like it was trying too hard to deliberately distance itself from the original.

While I found the darker themes of the first series more captivating, I think Brotherhood ultimately works a better as a whole. The original went to such a dark place that reaching for anything resembling a happy ending was bound to feel like a stretch.

blitzgal
8 years ago

What term is there to denote a character who only exists to spur on the protagonist? She isn’t a person in her own right — she is only there to inspire the main male character(s) to action, and most likely to be viewed as an object of lust for both the male character and the male audience. In the past, I’ve used the term “muse” but that doesn’t really fit, either. Plot device is another term, but there should be something that specifically calls out the gendering of this particular….well, plot device.

howardbann1ster
howardbann1ster
8 years ago

@katz, Sharc: I remember the ‘let me tell you what these assholes are like’ part–mostly because that was where the writing really shone. He understood those guys better than he understood his protagonists, I think.

I said a minute ago that Lisbeth steals the story, making it her own, and I dropped in (as it should be). Then I realized any troll would immediately say I’m saying all stories should be about the women in them, not about the dudes.

I am, of course, commenting on the fact that the second two books are about Lisbeth’s story, about her past, her trials. Where the first one really was about the dude, his past, his trials. They really are very separate that way.