It was, perhaps, inevitable, and now it has come to pass: obviously fed up with Men’s Rights Redditors questioning his wisdom (and his tactics, and his general narcissistic assholery) on a fairly regular basis, A Voice for Men Supreme Leader Paul Elam has started up his own Men’s Rights subreddit – r/mensrightsactivists –in which he can summarily ban all ”armchair activists” and “white knights” and “people who disagree with him.” Yep, that’s right: he’s made like a Trotskyist banana, and split.
Elam has long had a fairly strained relationship with Reddit MRAs. If you search through his comment history on Reddit, you can see evidence of numerous meltdowns on his part, which occur fairly regularly whenever anyone challenges him on pretty much anything, even when they are otherwise sympathetic to his views. On his own blog, he responds to such criticism by quickly banning the critics; on Reddit, he has tended to respond with schoolyard insults, digs at the masculinity of his critics, long recitations of his many fine accomplishments as a dedicated armchair activist, and the occasional rape joke.
Clearly the final straw for Elam was the reception given to a post of his on the poster controversy I wrote about here. Some samples from the discussion. Builtbro offers a substantive critique of Elam’s badly worded posters:
HolyCounsel is a bit more blunt:
And then there’s this edifying exchange:
The massive numbers of upvotes for Elam’s critics and downvotes for his, er, rebuttals seem to be at least partially the result of an invasion from r/SubredditDrama. Still, Elam seems to take each and every downvote personally, so the 238 net downvotes on his “Kleenex” comment must have stung.
In his new subreddit, threads like these clearly won’t be allowed to happen. As Elam explains in his less-than-welcoming “Welcome” message to new visitors:
While dissenters and the blue pill public will be welcome to post links and comment, trolls and other annoyances will be summarily booted with pleasure. This is an MRA dominated zone.
A couple of things to consider: Dissent, especially that which serves to further the improvement of the men’s movement, is welcome and appreciated. But if you want to post here, as a supposed MRA, telling others what is wrong with their work, you better have some MRA credentials.
Inactive, armchair quarterbacks, are not allowed here, unless their posts reflect genuine concern for improving and supporting the MRM and respect for those actually doing the work. If you want to ask questions so that you can learn, that is fine. But if you want to question, just so you can tear down, and you are not an MRA, then it will be adios for you. I’d sooner give a feminist the floor than a back seat driver.
R/mensrightsactivists: Come for the Elam-approved opinions, stay for the bans! Indeed, Elam devotes as much space in his “welcome” message to explaining whom he’ll ban as he does to actually spelling out what the subreddit will ostensibly do differently than good old r/mensrights.
Of course, this is not the first time that some angry MRA or two has decided to start another Men’s Rights subreddit designed to appeal to more, well, belligerent MRAs. Reddit already boasts an assortment of such subreddits, all of them fairly sparsely populated, including Rights4Men, Male Studies, and FeMRAs, a more obnoxious alternative to the already sparsely populated LadyMRAs. There’s even another subreddit devoted to MRA activism; it goes by the name of, well, MRAactivism. (There may be several more, but I can’t remember what they’re called.)
The Men’s Rights subreddit has nearly 45,000 subscribers; Elam’s new subreddit currently has 49, which is no doubt why he continues to post links to his blog in the original Men’s Rights subreddit. Whether Elam’s new subreddit succeeds and splits the MRM in two, or dies an inglorious death, one thing is sure: there will be plenty of new material for me here at Man Boobz.
The funny thing about these two is (for MRA values of funny), even if you think that women should have known better, nothing in their definition denies that the rape took place. It’s like “Wow, you’re stupid” *double take* “WOW, YOU’RE STUPID!!”
Actually this is old news for Chuckeedee. He’s been blathering on about full-moon rape for a while now. Dude needs some new material.
Shadow, you owe me a new cup of tea. I spat the one I had all over my screen 🙁
Seconding all the recommendations of FMA, even though the show is far from perfect (that award goes to Cowboy Beebop and Akira, IMO).
Angel Beats is pretty good, too, though it’s not for everyone.
Well, shit, no wonder Chuck thinks Paul Elam is a “moderate,” if his own view is that rape is the fault of the survivor for being anywhere near a rapist.
Both versions of Fullmetal Alchemist are pretty fantastic; I prefer the first anime, because I felt it was more thematically tight (and a lot of the extra cast from the second anime/manga seemed superfluous), but you really can’t go wrong with either.
On the subject of alchemy in anime, Baccano! is also amazing.
Snowy, I may regret asking this, but what is chuckie’s view on “full moon rape?” Or chuckie, you may answer yourself if you come back to share your views on the definition of “thug.”
Well, I don’t think he’s ever actually explained what “full moon rape” is supposed to be but he’s talked about it here on mbz before and also at FtB and on reddit so I mean, it must be something that he’s thought a lot about and would be able to describe, right?
*crossing fingers that all those links work*
“Full moon rape” sounds like one of those unsettling just-so stories about how come stars exist or something. :p
wow, I missed that when he posted here last.
So, here is why comments about jury nullification in rape cases are just so infuriating. There are estimates that upwards of 250,000 untested rape kits are just sitting in evidence lockers in this country, not processed. So here is the story of Kym Worthy, a Detroit prosecutor who has spent the past 3 years fighting to get the city’s 11,000 rape kits processed. In the first summer of their program, they have identified 20 serial rapists, and one SERIAL KILLER who went on to rape and murder five women AFTER he raped a woman whose kit was NEVER PROCESSED.
That’s right, MRA assholes. Rape is barely investigated in this country, let alone convicted. We literally allow serial killers to operate rather than do basic investigatory work on rape crimes. I cannot stress what I’m about to say enough: GO FUCK YOURSELVES. Your movement is beyond disgusting. It is a cesspool of filth and hatred and you can fucking rot in hell, all of you.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/08/28/rapists-beware-detroit-prosecutor-ids-21-attackers-in-rape-kit-probe.html
I tried to think whether the phrase “real rape” ever makes sense. I could come up with ONE scenario where it does:
You’re at some kind of BDSM party, and happens to open a door to a room where a guy seems to rape a woman who goes all “NOOO STOOOP!”. Then another person tells you “it’s alright, it’s not real rape, they had totally decided to do a rape scene and she was gonna cry NO STOP but they have another word for a safe word”.
That’s actually the only context I could think of where it makes sense to say “It wasn’t real rape because…”. And that’s a pretty specific one.
(I mean, there are obviously loads of other scenarios you could think of where there wasn’t any RAPE period – like every time two people have consensual sex – but that’s another matter.)
Exactly, Dvärghundspossen. The only thing the words “real rape” are saying–just like “legitimate rape”–is that there’s all this stuff out there feminists are calling rape, but it’s not really.
Because you just can’t possibly take a woman’s word for it that she’s been raped.
Which ties back into how they can’t see what Roosh is saying as rape. Because it’s really important to deny, deny, deny. Redefine! Anything! It’s not REALLY rape!
…I’m feeling a little ill now.
Personally, I think it’s irresponsible and inconsiderate as hell to do those scenes at a party unless all the attendees have gotten a heads-up and agreed. But that’s just me being persnickety; it’s clearly not real rape anyway.
Kitty?
Dvärghundspossen – there’s also faked rape for dramatic film/TV/theatre purposes.
But in virtually all cases (and certainly all legitimate ones) the performers will have written consent, and even if passers-by get confused, it should all be straightened out in a matter of seconds.
leftwingfox is a fox-like kitty.
@Wetherby, yeah I just realized when walking the dogs. Like, suppose you see what looks like a man raping a woman, you’re gonna call the police, and then somebody goes “No, that’s not REAL RAPE, because they’re actors shooting a movie!”
So, er, TWO very specific contexts where it totally makes sense to say “that’s not real rape”.
Besides, WTF is with all these people who think women lie about being raped just because they regret they had sex with somebody? I’m not saying women never lie about being raped, obviously such cases EXIST, but… the idea that women might do this just because they REGRET SEX?
I mean, suppose I’ve had a drunken one-night-stand with Mr Douchebag, whom I normally detest, and only slept with because I was drunk and desperately horny (although not at all helplessly drunk). It was totally consensual, but next day I’m like “WTF, I slept with Douchebag??? AAARRRGH!”.
So I’d rather prefer if nobody knew about it, because it’s so embarrassing, but unfortunately people saw us leave the party together, and Mr Douchebag totally tells everybody. What do I do?
Well, if people think it was consensual sex the worst case scenario is that some people think I’m a slut and a moron for sleeping with Douchebag and look down on me for a while – and then forget about it and find other things to gossip about. Best case scenario is that my friends just laugh at me for my terrible taste in men when drunk and horny and forget about it almost immediately.
IF, on the other hand, I tell everybody that he RAPED me, I can be pretty certain that lots of people are gonna think I’m an evil slut and slanderer, because Mr Douchebag is after all NO MONSTER; and everybody knows only monsters rape people, and therefore I must be a lying evil slut-bitch. If I have friends who believe me and support me, it’s also pretty likely that at least some of them are gonna think I’m BROKEN FOREVER because I’ve been raped, and treat me all weird from now on. And if I actually go to the police, I’m gonna have my sex-life and the way I dress etc etc dissected in court, and much more people are gonna believe that I’m an evil slut and slanderer. Particularly since the chances that Mr Douchebag gets convicted because I just made something up are pretty tiny. And then lots of people are gonna remember and talk about this whole thing for WAY longer than they’d ever be bothered with gossiping about two people who had a consensual one-night-stand.
So WHY ON EARTH would I want to go around telling people he raped me?
It makes a little more sense when you realize that a number of the people spreading the meme are doing so maliciously.
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/
Social licenses to operate. The more they insist women who regret sex claim rape, the more rapists get away and the rapists fucking know that.
Er, that was in response to Dvärghundspossen. (quotes would make that more clear, eh?)
One final thought: who besides rapists benefits from the MRAs spreading the message that most rape isn’t “real”? (trick question: nobody. Just rapists)
Ok. Can’t get the kitty avatar (need flash player) so the next best thing. Hope it works.
At this point, if chuckeedee is not a troll, he’ll admit that “real rape” is a shitty thing to say, that PE didn’t say anything more specific than rape and thus that he meant all rapes, and as such that PE is an extremist.
Chuckee?
@Howardbannister: Gee, I just read the comments thread on your link. Or not all of it, but some. I can’t believe there are people who seriously thinks the solution to rape is that either all men or all women agree to gang up and attack and violently beat up rapists. Or rather, I do believe there are such people but that they’re probably fourteen and get their view on how the world works from action movies.
Like, a friend of mine got date-raped once. Suppose all us girls ganged up on the guy when he was alone and beat the crap out of him. And THEN what happens…? Well, if he recognized us he’d call the police, and possibly they’d manage to nail us for what we’d done. We’d end up in prison, and he’d be the innocent victim of a gang of crazy bitches. Or we could put on masks and not say anything while we beat him up. That way, we could be certain that he’d learn absolutely nothing from the experience. I mean, date-rapers don’t really self-identify as rapists or think they do anything wrong. He’d just think he had been randomly attacked by a gang of crazy thugs. And possibly we’d still end up in prison, even if he couldn’t identify us at the moment of the attack there’s a risk the police would eventually catch us. Gangs attacking people and beating them up (at least when their victims are well-adjusted middle class people) is a crime that the cops take seriously.
The only way I could see this working is if, like, an entire community would be ready to back us up and not tell the cops, because they thought he totally deserved it for date-raping my friend. That would be possible in a universe where everybody were totally willing to believe the victim and condemn any kind of rape as REAL rape and WRONG. But in that universe date-rape would already be a rare crime (to be fair, the point of this last paragraph WAS pointed out by someone in the thread).
I think people who think violent revenge is a solution simply thinks that rapists are all moustache-twirling villains who self-identify as evil and who obviously (to everyone around them) had it coming when they get the crap kicked out of them.
There’s basically no chance of that.