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a voice for men actual activism alpha males antifeminism are these guys 12 years old? domestic violence facepalm misogyny MRA oppressed men paul elam rape rape jokes rapey the poster revolution has begun

The whole world is watching … A Voice for Men “activists” making asses of themselves

Well,I got carried away there. It’s not literally the whole world. Only a teensy weensy portion of it.

The fellows at A Voice for Men, you see, evidently stung by criticism that they aren’t activists, have begun engaging in real, honest-to-goodness real-world activism, by which I mean that a handful of them, some in Canada and at least one in Australia, have been putting up posters advertising the AVFM website.

In other words, their activism consists of putting up posters for a website whose only activism thus far has consisted of putting up posters for itself.

Well, eventually they’ll get the hang of it, I guess.

In any case, the A Voice for Menners have discovered something about activism: if you do things that are offensive enough, people will be offended. And so they’ve managed to offend some people in Canada and in Australia where their posters have gone up. In Australia, there have even been a couple of news articles written about them! For example, one in Melbourne’s Herald Sun says:

A MAN who is littering the city with posters promoting a website that encourages men to support rapists has declined the opportunity to explain himself.

The website, which the Herald Sun has chosen not to name, is campaigning to get men sitting on juries for rape trials to “vow publicly to vote not guilty, even in the face of overwhelming evidence that the charges are true”. …

The website’s publisher, Paul Elam, told the Herald Sun he was too busy watching the movie Air Force One to be interviewed, but later said by email he stood by the campaign.

Ooh! How very, very alpha of him.

Other articles (see here and here) describe the posters as “hate posters,” because one of them seems to suggest that women provoke domestic violence against themselves. The text of the poster reads “Domestic Violence Women Are Half the Problem.”

In fact, Elam and company are trying to suggest that women instigate half of all domestic violence, and thus are “half the problem,” but they’re so wedded to the easily misunderstood “half the problem” slogan that they somehow cannot seem to get this idea across in poster form. (This idea is itself incorrect, but that’s a whole other kettle of angry dudes.) Elam and company don’t quite seem to understand that an important part of activism is actually conveying your ideas to the general public rather than simply provoking people.

You can’t buy this kind of publicity!

Well, technically, you could, but no one would, because no one would willingly pay money for a publicity campaign that makes them appear to be hateful assholes — and in fact, even a teensy bit more hateful than they actually are.

So, congratulations, I guess?

If anyone wants to help AVFM in its publicity campaign, the super-sarcastic poster below, and a number of other poorly thought out and badly designed posters, can be downloaded from AVFM here by “anyone who wants to print and distribute them.”

Note: THIS IS A REAL AVFM POSTER. I didn’t make it up. See here.

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some guy bored with your schtick
some guy bored with your schtick
8 years ago

Anathema, I think your advice on how to create posters to raise awareness is spot-on and excellent.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Cloudiah, I’ll read just about anything, but I’ve been on kind of a crime fiction kick lately. Just finished a ton of Pelecanos.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

It’s really pretty hard to find any definition of beat that does not emphasize the repeated nature of the strikes.

It’s actually super easy, because you keep posting them here.

c. to punish by hitting

American Heritage dictionary.

I feel amazed that I have to do this, but here is how dictionaries work:

They list all uses of the phrase sequentially. The meaning of each entry is not connected to the other ones. If a says “strike repeatedly” and c says “punish by hitting,” both are valid.

Why are you more upset at our word choice than at the people telling you that this abuser terrorist is a hero?

Polliwog
Polliwog
8 years ago

Some Guy, if we are kind enough to agree with you that “beat” can sometimes carry a connotation of being a repetitive action, and instead say that Ball hit, punched, smacked, bashed, pummeled, pounded, slugged, struck, walloped, assaulted, battered, abused, attacked, or otherwise engaged in wildly inappropriate violence towards a toddler, will you stop playing dictionary-troll and explain why the hell you think you should categorize him as an “activist” rather than an abusive terrorist scumbag?

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Some guy, we’re not the ones being willfully obtuse here.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

MR Activism:

Inspiring people on the internet to teach you how to read the dictionary.

p00kah
p00kah
8 years ago

Just browsed the alexa ratings for this site in comparison with mgtow forums and a voice for men, and it seems manboobz could benefit from a poster campaign of their own so that people’s first exposure to the MRM comes through you instead of them. The MRM sites are killing you from the website rating standpoint.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

Yeah, i mean, “assaulted” would be the legal term, so we can go with that if you want.

Polliwog
Polliwog
8 years ago

But why? That he hit is kid is terrible enough for most of us.

But apparently not for you! Since you used him as an example of MRA activism and all.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

That he hit is kid is terrible enough for most of us.

For most human beings, yes, but not for you.

Remember that time you posted an article calling the removal of his kids an injustice? I do, because it was a half hour ago.

Catfish
Catfish
8 years ago

You know, if only these guys would look into things and start raising awarenes about actual problems…

It’s not like there are no issues that men specifically are facing. It’s just sad (and stupid) that none of these men’s right sites seem to even try to understand what they are – whereas a lot of feminist sites bring them up regularily.
And even if they do bring up something legit, they tend to go at it all wrong. It’s like climbing up a tree with their arses first.
When they finally try doing something, they just make themselves look even less relevant.

Tilting at windmills and all that…

some guy bored with your schtick
some guy bored with your schtick
8 years ago

@ugh, that’s cute.

This appears to be the definition at American Heritage, which, if you ask me, emphasizes, just like I said, the importance of repetition.

“a. To strike repeatedly.
b. To subject to repeated beatings or physical abuse; batter.
c. To punish by hitting or whipping; flog.

a. To strike against repeatedly and with force; pound: waves beating the shore.
b. To flap, especially wings.
c. To strike so as to produce music or a signal: beat a drum.
d. Music To mark or count (time or rhythm), especially with the hands or with a baton.

a. To shape or break by repeated blows; forge: beat the glowing metal into a dagger.
b. To make by pounding or trampling: beat a path through the jungle.
To mix rapidly with a utensil: beat two eggs in a bowl.”

cloudiah
8 years ago

I love Pelecanos, but am not up on other good recent crime fiction.

Two good books I’ve read recently:
http://www.amazon.com/Bound-Freedom-Angeles-Foundation-American/dp/0520239199

http://www.amazon.com/L-A-City-Limits-Depression-Foundation/dp/0520238419

Anathema
Anathema
8 years ago

Hey, Dictionary Troll, are you okay with the Oxford English Dictionary?

beat, v.1

I. The simple action: to strike repeatedly.
1.
a. trans. To strike with repeated blows. to beat the breast : i.e. in sign of sorrow.
b. With complement, expressing the result of the process: to beat to powder, beat black and blue, etc.
c. to beat the air , to beat the wind , ( to beat the water obs.): to fight to no purpose or against no opposition; in reference to 1 Cor. ix. 26. Sometimes referring to the ordeal by battle, when one of the parties made default, in which case the other is said to have gained his cause by dealing so many blows upon the air.
2.
a. intr. To strike or deliver repeated blows (on, at anything); †to knock (at a door). to beat away or to beat on : to go on beating.
b. Said of hares and rabbits in rutting-time.
3.
a. trans. Said of the action of the feet upon the ground in walking or running; hence, to beat the streets : to walk up and down. to beat a path or to beat a track : to tread it hard or bare by frequent passage; hence, to open up or prepare a way. Often fig.
b. to beat one’s way : to travel, or make one’s way, spec. by illicit means. U.S.
c. to beat it : to go away, to ‘clear out’. orig. U.S.
4.
a. To strike (a man or beast) with blows of the hand or any weapon so as to give pain; to inflict blows on, to thrash; to punish by beating.
. . .

http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/16609?result=6&rskey=gL8ouf&

Yeah, it’s definition 4a we’re using here, buddy.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

@Catfish

That’s based on the assumption that these kinds are concerned with actual rights or issues in any way, shape or form. But they’re not. 100% of their activism consists of statements like some guy’s here.

Advocating for child and spousal abuse: it’s not a bug of the movement, it’s the feature.

some guy bored with your schtick
some guy bored with your schtick
8 years ago

Even the first hits of whipping and flog use the term beat, so it’s circular, but even your (c) can truly and honestly and reasonably be construed as repeated hits. English can be ambiguous that way.

Shiraz
Shiraz
8 years ago

Those posters are absurd. Though if you’re the right type (a wingnut who thinks misandry is real), the reptillian part of your brain might light up and move you to take an interest.

Some guy spoke about feminism like it’s a monolith a few posts ago. Christ, I hate that.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

@some guy

Again, that’s actually not how dictionaries work.

The definitions are seaparate, not cumulative. A and B are not part of definition C.

This is seriously like 4th grade English Language Arts.

some guy bored with your schtick
some guy bored with your schtick
8 years ago

“It’s not like there are no issues that men specifically are facing. It’s just sad (and stupid) that none of these men’s right sites seem to even try to understand what they are – whereas a lot of feminist sites bring them up regularily.
And even if they do bring up something legit, they tend to go at it all wrong. It’s like climbing up a tree with their arses first.
When they finally try doing something, they just make themselves look even less relevant.”

I could tell you that as a man, I am aware of many real issues that feminist should bring up concerning women, that many MRA sites do bring up.

You would probably tell me that I should listen and respect the issues that women identify and that I should not be condescending, patronizing, or patriarchal to tell me what your real issues are.

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
8 years ago

The website’s publisher, Paul Elam, told the Herald Sun he was too busy watching the movie Air Force One to be interviewed, but later said by email he stood by the campaign.

This bit made me laugh really hard for some reason.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

But you know what, let’s just use the legal term: assault.

Why do you think it was unjust to take away a man’s kids after he assaulted one of them?

The First Joe
The First Joe
8 years ago

^The poster put up by Futrelle is NOT one of the posters that was put up in Vancouver.
Those posters said nothing about feminism but instead addressed real problems men suffer from, using stats from mainstream sources, and asserted that “Men’s rights are human rights.”

And yet, those very mild, uncontroversial posters were torn down by local women, had “WRONG” stencilled over them, and a group of local feminists confronted one of the poster-pasters. A bystander in charge of safety (on the builiding site whose boards the the fella was posting) tried to intervene, and was assaulted by one of the feminists. That attacker burst into tears and claimed victimhood when the police arrived.

Also, the constant refrain here at manboobz, that women don’t commit DV against men is utter BULLSHIT.

The official UK Home Office Stats state that 40% of the victims of DV are men:

“Data from Home Office statistical bulletins and the British Crime Survey show that men made up about 40% of domestic violence victims each year between 2004-05 and 2008-09, the last year for which figures are available. In 2006-07 men made up 43.4% of all those who had suffered partner abuse in the previous year, which rose to 45.5% in 2007-08 but fell to 37.7% in 2008-09.

Similar or slightly larger numbers of men were subjected to severe force in an incident with their partner, according to the same documents. The figure stood at 48.6% in 2006-07, 48.3% the next year and 37.5% in 2008-09, Home Office statistics show.

The 2008-09 bulletin states: “More than one in four women (28%) and around one in six men (16%) had experienced domestic abuse since the age of 16. These figures are equivalent to an estimated 4.5 million female victims of domestic abuse and 2.6 million male victims.”

In addition, “6% of women and 4% of men reported having experienced domestic abuse in the past year, equivalent to an estimated one million female victims of domestic abuse and 600,000 male victims”.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

And yet orgs that look out for men who are DV victims recieve only about 3% of anti-DV funding.

“Twelve organisations that support male victims of domestic violence and sexual abuse will receive a share of £225,000, Home Office Minister Lynne Featherstone announced today.

The carefully selected organisations will use the money to help ensure a better service for male victims.

She said: ‘I am pleased to announce that we are able to support male victims of domestic violence through this funding. We recognise that men can be victims of these crimes too and deserve support and protection.’

These grants are just one of a range of actions the government is taking to tackle domestic violence. Overall, £28 million will be directed towards specialist domestic and sexual violence services over the next four years to help victims.”

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/media-centre/news/domestic-violence-support

Bearing in mind that male DV victims are waaaaay less likely to report than female DV victims.

I know two of my male relatives who suffered regular DV (e.g. one being strangled in his sleep, the other – face scratched bloody) at the hands of their respective fiancees, neither man ever hit their attacker back, neither reported it, and thank fuck, both eventually dumped their violent partners and did not fucking marry them.

The fiancee of one had actually gone around lying to friends / family that he had attacked her, but given that there wasn’t a mark on her, and he was brusied and bloody, everyone knew she was full of shit.
The fiancee of the other was such a violent nutcase that she once kicked a policeman in the balls.

So, fuck off, trying to make out that men don’t suffer DV at the hands of women.

some guy bored with your schtick
some guy bored with your schtick
8 years ago

Hey, if I’m going to get to the Costco before the close I’ve got to run.

Thank you for the respectful dialogue.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

I could tell you that as a man, I am aware of many real issues that feminist should bring up concerning women, that many MRA sites do bring up.

So far 100% of the political beliefs you’ve stated are “David is boring” and “Child abuse: maybe not that bad?”

These are not real issues affecting men.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

Some guy leaves before retracting his statements supporting child abuse.

MRAs at their finest.

Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
8 years ago
cloudiah
8 years ago

Going back to the original post (what a concept!):

The website’s publisher, Paul Elam, told the Herald Sun he was too busy watching the movie Air Force One to be interviewed, but later said by email he stood by the campaign.

Here is another way NOT to organize effectively, and it reveals the same basic error that the posters do. Paul and his ilk are preaching to the choir, and only preaching to the choir. Given the chance to bring his message to the larger community, Elam makes a sarcastic joke that he knows will play well with the AVfM audience. But based on the journalist’s entirely accurate account of the exchange, any person not in on the joke will conclude only that Elam is either an idiot or an asshole.

They have NO idea how to communicate a coherent message to anyone but themselves.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

@Joe

“Women are half the problem in domestic violence” is not the same thing as saying “men are victims too.”

See the difference? One expresses what the MRM is actually about, removing the blame and consequences for men who abuse women, and one is what they say they’re about whenever you challenge them on it.

See the difference between rape apologia and actual pro-male-survivor activism?

Shiraz
Shiraz
8 years ago

Hey Joe, you fuck off. Your straw arguments don’t stick — no one here ever claimed men never suffer from domestic abuse.

some guy bored with your schtick
some guy bored with your schtick
8 years ago

Hey Anathema, how did you get to the OED? Do you subscribe? I actually visited there and it seemed a subscription was needed.

Anyway, you can see that they also emphasize the repeated nature of a beating, so thank you.

Um, if you have any more ideas about posters for MRAs, I do suggest you forward them to avfm. I am not a member, and am still not sure how I feel about Paul Elam, so I am really not the person to give them to, but I really do agree with your ideas.

Got to go, or else the freebies at Costco are going to start drying up.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

@Joe

Also, you were super upset at me the other day when I say that MRAs were rape apologists.

Well, right here in this thread, there is a dude arguing that it was unjust for a child abuser to lose custody of his kids. Here’s your chance to prove you’re not all about the abuser apologia, why not say something critical of him?

cloudiah
8 years ago

Bodsworth, that may be the best (and by that I mean the worst, which is the best) of all the really bad (by which I mean so bad they’re good) posters posted here today.

My name is cloudiah, and I approved this incoherent message.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

Pick up a 4th grade English textbook while you’re out! Maybe it will succeed where I failed an actually teach you to read a dictionary.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

Really, an OED subscription won’t get you very far if you can’t even understand the format of what you’re reading.

ShadetheDruid
ShadetheDruid
8 years ago

Bodsworth, that may be the best (and by that I mean the worst, which is the best) of all the really bad (by which I mean so bad they’re good) posters posted here today.

Seconded! I literally laughed out loud at the bodged placement of the url. 😛

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

@cloudiah

I mean, “the choir” is rapists, abusers, and those who make up excuses for them. I think it’s not so much that they’re unable to communicate their message to other people, as that their message when articulated is wildly unpopular amongst people who are not abusers or abuser apologists.

Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
8 years ago

Thanks!

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

Also, the constant refrain here at manboobz, that women don’t commit DV against men is utter BULLSHIT.

Citation needed. If it’s a constant refrain, I’ll bet it wouldn’t be challenging to find ONE example of it, eh?

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

@Joe

“More than one in four women (28%) and around one in six men (16%) had experienced domestic abuse since the age of 16.

At least one of them by the MRA’s chosen hero Thomas Ball.

Leely
Leely
8 years ago

Those pear/pair lines might actually be clever if they were satirizing Dude Culture.

As it is, major fail.

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
8 years ago

This is pretty much my reaction to most MRA bullshit, but the image is particularly relevant because of today’s post

http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/d/d7/LOL_WUT_PEAR.jpg

Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
8 years ago

Caught up with the thread now. Poor attempt to move the goalposts, some guy. You’ve got to be less blatant about it.

Also: http://9gag.com/gag/101332

Anathema
Anathema
8 years ago

@ Some Guy:

I get OED through my college.

But as Ugh said, being able to access a dictionary isn’t particularly useful if you don’t know how to use it. A lot of words have multiple definitions. These definitions are all separate. You can’t add them all together and somehow achieve the one, true definition of a word.

Mind you, I ‘m not all that fond of dictionary arguments in the first place. Just like everything else. dictionaries are imperfect. Typically, I think the content of what someone says is more important than the words they use, as long as most people can understand what they’re saying.

We all know what was meant by “beat” in this case. Arguing about how it doesn’t really qualify as beating because some definitions of beat require repetition just avoids the real issue — that Ball hit his daughter so hard he made her bleed.

AlexB
AlexB
8 years ago

I was trying to understand the Air Force One thing, if it was an injoke or what, so I googled and found this. THE STORY BEHIND THE STORY, everyone!

http://www.avoiceformen.com/a-voice-for-men/herald-sun-interviews-paul-elam/

It’s quite funny. Paul Elam believes the question “Why did you set up this website?” was a “myopic and transparent attempt at a setup.” So he got off on the wrong foot with the journalist.

Also, there is this weird thing going on in the article and the comments where Paul Elam referred to “women who support this website financially,” the journalist asked him how many women were paid supporters of the site, and Paul and the commenters all took that as an insinuation that women had to BE paid to support the site and refuted it righteously.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

@AlexB

Really, as Joe has shown, any attempt to rephrase or argue against MRA arguments is automatically “strawmanning.” So, really, media coverage in any form would be a setup.

Gametime
Gametime
8 years ago

Even the first hits of whipping and flog use the term beat, so it’s circular, but even your (c) can truly and honestly and reasonably be construed as repeated hits.

Hahahhaha, oh my god, this is amazing. Some guy has no idea how dictionaries work. “Well, the definition for ‘beat’ references ‘flog,’ and ‘flog’ references ‘beat,’ so we end up in an infinite regression! HOW WILL WE EVER FIGURE OUT WHAT THESE WORDS MEAN?”

Sharculese
8 years ago

oh cool joe is back with another huge block of unconnected text. apparently organizing your thoughts coherently is RACIST

Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
8 years ago

I notice he hasn’t disputed the definition of ‘terrorist’ in relation to Ball.

some guy bored with your schtick
some guy bored with your schtick
8 years ago

The truth is (or what his claim that I don’t recall was refuted by his ex) that he slapped his baby.

I have already condemned this in the strongest way, but the feminists here have absolutely misrepresented what I have to say and say that I have defended that action, or said he should not have lost custody.

The truth is that one slapping is not what most people consider “beating, bashing, pummeling” and that by being truthful and direct with one another is the best way for people to dialogue and understand and arrive at consensus and change things.

The truth is that in every single definition posted, “repeat” is emphasized until you get down further to find one or two alternate definitions.

The truth is that the totality of all of those definitions come to emphasize the repeated nature of the hits in a beating, as I said, as you have folks have misrepresented.

Who misrepresents things this way?

Fox News? Republicans? Feminists? David Futrelle?

Gotta go, since its totes fashionable to use silly contractions and zs, for realz.

Later haters.

lauralot89
8 years ago

Sorry, guys, I don’t have time to represent my website and writings. I’m busy watching Pear Force One.