Manosphere misogynists like to tell themselves fairy tales about women. Their favorite such tale, repeated endlessly, is one called “The Cock Carousel” – sometimes referred to in expanded form as the “Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel” or the “Bad Boy Cock Carousel.” (Hence that Rooster-riding gal you see in this blog’s header about half the time.)
Despite the different names, the story is always, monotonously, the same: In their late teens and twenties, when they’re at the height of their sexual appeal, women (or at least the overwhelming majority of them) have sex in rapid succession with an assortment of charismatic but unreliable alpha males and “bad boys” who make their vaginas (or just ‘ginas) tingle. Then, sometime in their mid-to-late twenties, these women “hit the wall,” with their so-called sexual market value (or SMV) dropping faster than Facebook’s stock price. As Roissy/Heartiste puts it, in his typically overheated prose:
So sad, so tragic, the inevitable slide into sexual worthlessness that accompanies women, the withering tick tock of the cosmic clock stripping their beauty in flayed bits of soulletting mignons like psychological ling chi. A sadistic thief in the night etching, billowing, draping and sagging a new affront to her most preciously guarded asset.
While many women try to pretend they’ve still “got it,” even at the ripe old age of thirty, they inevitably have to either get off or get thrown off the “cock carousel.” At this point the more savvy women glom onto some convenient “beta male” who, while somewhat lacking in sexual appeal, will at least be a good husband and provider for them – and in many cases the children they’ve had with alpha male seed. Those women who don’t accept the new reality are destined to end up alone and childless, surrounded by cats.
To borrow the phrase South Park used in its episodes about Scientology and Mormonism, this is what manosphere men actually believe. Not only that, but they claim that this fairy tale is based on real science.
So who are these mysterious alpha males that get the women so excited? As one guide to pickup artist (PUA) lingo puts it:
In animal hierarchies, the Alpha Male is the most dominant, and typically the physically strongest member of the group. For example, in wolf packs, the “alpha wolf” is the strongest member of the pack, and is the leader of the group. This position of leadership is often achieved by killing or defeating the previous Alpha Male in combat. Alpha wolves have first access to food as well as mating privileges with the females of the pack.
Social status among human social groups is less rigidly defined than in the animal kingdom, but there are some recognizable parallels. Although people don’t often engage in physical violence to achieve dominance, there are still recognizable leaders in different fields who have wide access to material resources and women.
Because the qualities of the Alpha Male (such as social dominance and leadership) are attractive to women, many PUAs have adopted these ideals as models of emulation. In fact, the term “alpha” has come be shorthand for the qualities of an attractive man, and it is a common refrain among PUAs to be “more alpha” or to “out alpha” competitors.
There’s a certain logic to all this. But unfortunately for the PUAs and other manospherians the notion of the Alpha male is based on bad science. The notion of Alpha dominance, as the definition above notes, came originally from studies of wolf packs. Even if we assume that wolf behavior is somehow a good model upon which to base our understanding of human romance – as manosphere men and evolutionary psychologists tend to do – the science behind the Alpha male wolf has now come completely undone, with many of those who promulgated the theory in the first place decades ago now explicitly repudiating it.
The problem, you see, is that the studies underlying the notion of the alpha male wolf, who aggressively asserts his dominance over beta males in order to rule the pack, were all based on observations of wolves in captivity. In the real world, wolf packs don’t work that way at all. Most wolf packs are basically wolf families, with a breeding pair and their pups. When male pups reach adulthood, they don’t fight their fathers for dominance — they go out and start their own families.
As noted wolf behavior expert L. David Mech, one of those who helped to establish and popularize the notion of the alpha wolf in the first place, explains on his website:
The concept of the alpha wolf is well ingrained in the popular wolf literature at least partly because of my book “The Wolf: Ecology and Behavior of an Endangered Species,” written in 1968, published in 1970, republished in paperback in 1981, and currently still in print, despite my numerous pleas to the publisher to stop publishing it. Although most of the book’s info is still accurate, much is outdated. We have learned more about wolves in the last 40 years then in all of previous history.
One of the outdated pieces of information is the concept of the alpha wolf. “Alpha” implies competing with others and becoming top dog by winning a contest or battle. However, most wolves who lead packs achieved their position simply by mating and producing pups, which then became their pack. In other words they are merely breeders, or parents, and that’s all we call them today, the “breeding male,” “breeding female,” or “male parent,” “female parent,” or the “adult male” or “adult female.” In the rare packs that include more than one breeding animal, the “dominant breeder” can be called that, and any breeding daughter can be called a “subordinate breeder.”
So the dominant male wolves – those whom manosphere dudes would still call the alphas – achieve this position not by being sexy badasses but simply by siring and taking responsibility for pups. To use the terminology in the manner of manosphere dudes, alphas become alphas by acting like betas. That’s right: alphas are betas. (For more of the details, see this paper by Mech; it’s in pdf form.)
Also, they’re wolves and not humans, but that’s a whole other kettle of anthropomorphized fish.
I lived in a house with 7 guy friends and 2 other girl friends senior of college. The guys let their guards down and treated us as one of the guys before long and yeah, they said some pretty gross things. No horrible rape jokes, just objectifying and detailed discussion of what they did and didn’t like about various women’s bodies. It was eye opening and a little scary. It’s a big part of why I would never date a “bro” although that wasn’t my type before I experienced living with frat boys anyway.
You all probably think im a troll. Lol. I have no idea why it all even came out. Google brought me here and i was half drunk at the moment.
No, i dont blame anyone else for who i am. Im insecure and weak and wont be able to handle being cheated on again. To tell you the truth, Im still not over her even though she cheated on me. All i want now is to get over her, i thought sex would make it easier for me.
PUA works for people like me. Its not really about what you say but more about how you say it. Confidence is the key. Once you start seeing women as sex objects, you dont have to care about what they may feel and this gives me confidence to say anything. The whole point is not to let them know that you consider them as sex objects. Its hard to explain really.
I grew out of the depressed state once i started college. I made new friends and im rebuilding my life albeit in a different way. The sex is great and i dont think i can ever trust women with my love ever again.
Sorry about the whole rant, i wrote the original post when i was drunk at night and on my phone.
I dont know if i made the right choices in life, but im no longer sad and depressed because of women and get a lot of sex. If i became someone else, its not anyone’s fault. I just grew up watching too many disney movies to really know that in reality, women will cheat on you and hurt you. So i just adapted myself to the real world. Its who i am now and probably who i am going to be for the rest of my life.
Hey, man, if you want to spend your life as a sad predatory asshole, nobody is going to stop you. We will point and laugh, though.
Drunk posting. Al, is that you?
So, it’s bad when a woman treats you badly by cheating. However, it’s fine for you to treat women badly by treating them as objects. Is it ok for men to cheat on their girlfriends because women are objects? The hypocrisy you display is stunning.
By the way, you do not have depression because of women. It’s a brain chemistry thing. Bad and stressful events can trigger a depressive episode, but you can’t give someone clinical depression.
There are women who can stay faithful and there are women who can’t. The same is true of men. That’s no excuse to treat all women as sex objects. We are, believe it or not all whole people with separate personalities and our own good and bad qualities.
Are you all feeling suitably chastened, ladies? It would soothe Asixpack’s emotional wounds if he though he’d succeeded in punishing you for the fact that his ex hurt him.
You’re a coward, dude. Keep living that way if you want, but know that people can see you for exactly what you are, and what they’re feeling when they look at you is a mixture of pity and contempt.
Weirwoodtreehugger, We were in love for 2 years and had already planned our wedding. Then she cheats on me after everything we went through. What i did for her, i never did for anyone else. If she had dumped me, it would have hurt less. I was in my room for weeks just crying and cut myself a few times and probably ate a meal a day. Then when micheal turned my whole life around, hurting women became my revenge fantasy. I just can’t trust women anymore. Then when i saw the number of drunk girls who have boyfriends who jumped in bed with me, it became clear to me. There may be some trustworthy girls out there, but i dont think i can deal with any more of what i went through to really find that person. I just have to deal with reality and accept the fact that nobody is trustworthy enough to fall in love with. They will all eventually cheat on you given the chance. Now that its me doing the cheating, it feels a lot better than being on the recieving end.
Asixpack, all I have to say is that you’re really going to regret all this in the morning.
I keep wanting to read the name as a misspelling of Asterix. Clearly my brain is trying to protect me from death by cliche.
Sorry about the whole rant, i wrote the original post when i was drunk at night and on my phone.
Nope. Assuming, arguendo, that you were drunk, that’s no excuse. The liquor doesn’t speak, it merely let’s you release the inhibitions on aspects of yourself.
And the sob story of how badly you were treated? That’s life. I’ve had relationships end. I’ve had engagements end (and after more than two years; and a lot more trial and strain and recovery, etc.) than you had (unless you packed an amazing amount into the two years, you can’t top what my ex and I went through in eight; not given what happened in those eight years).
Even my worst breakup (which was after I’d moved hundreds of miles to set up house with her) didn’t cause me to treat women as objects, or to think them less than men (which your other posts make plain you do).
It’s not them. It’s you. You aren’t a shitty human being because of women. You are a shitty human being because you are a shitty human being. You admit to treating people as objects. That’s immoral.
You revel in your immorality; and blame the targets of your immorality for making you do it.
Which is bullshit. It’s the same excuse assholes always make. You were “driven to it”. Nope. You chose it. You enjoy it. You are a shitbird and an asshole.
Seconding Pecunium.
I really, really hate the ‘someone poked a stick in my eye, so I’m going to poke sticks in all the eyes‘ logic. If everyone followed that logic, we’d be a blind species in no time.
I have sympathy – really, I do – for people who have been burned and reacted badly. I’m not saying it’s OK. I am saying though that I can understand how someone, having been hurt, would become weary of the gender instead of the individual. All it takes is isolation and the internet, where all your fears are reinforced on the websites you visit, and a full blown case of MRAism can ensue,
Obviously, it’s not reasonable or acceptable and it’s every individual man’s job to get a fucking grip lest they wish to spend their forever as a paranoid, hateful individual, harming everyone who comes near. I do have some sympathy regarding how this could happen to otherwise decent guys though. A lack of exposure to real people in meatspace can make you think all the anecdotes you hear on the internet, all being upvoted and liked and qft’d, indicate a prevalent problem. Out on the street, not a chance.
asixpack,
1) Suisidal ideation is not something you fuck your way out of. This is not a joke: Get some help. You drunkenly having sex with as many strangers as you can, whether or not either of you are in a state to consent or be sure of being able to take responsible precautions is not studly. It’s horrifying.
2) Being rejected or cheated happens to men and women all the time. It does not cause them to view other human beings as interchangeable genitalia. I cannot believe the gall you have to pass yourself off as a redeemed victim when what you are actually saying is that you got dumped, so now your a reckless man who has no respect for women and that makes me afraid of what having sex with any available drunk girl might imply about how you view consent.
3) Of course your appearance matters alot when you are looking for one night stands. Yes, some men and women will have casual sex once or twice with a handsome young man who is otherwise uninteresting, if he is also into casual sex. You aren’t conquering anything because people will have sex with you. You’re, pretty, you’re game. You’re on a college campus. The odds are sort of in your favor that you are going to find your way into some beds. That doesn’t make you an alpha anything.
4) I dated the man who would be Hubby all through my college days. Don’t tell me what women are like. We aren’t a monolith.
*you’re*
Sorry. Me no coffee yet.
Coffee now.
Coffee goooood.
Oh gawd, Ally, that’s horrid. Sorry you had to hear that. But at the same time, it’s good to have confirmation that this really is just about assholes “putting women in their place”. I twigged long ago to the fact that street harassment and catcalls are NOT compliments, and ever since then, my middle finger’s been up high for shit like that. That’s the one reaction NONE of these dudes are expecting. And it’s always satisfying to see their jaws drop when a very ladylike woman makes such an unladylike gesture…
I don’t think casual sex is wrong or even a bad way to meet someone you might have a relationship with. I don’t think there is anything wrong with drinking. Those are personal choices. People do meet each other in bars and end up having long term relationships. It’s a place people gather socially. I hope I was clear that it is the attitude asixpack espoused toward women and himself that were alarming. How he is going about having multiple partners is the problem.
It’s actually fairly common for people to feel undesirable when they are cheated on or dumped. One way people seem to deal with that feeling is to go out and have lots of sex with new partners. I don’t know if it helps people feel attractive again after a bad relationship or if it just gives them a nice way to pass the time until the heartache wears off on it’s own, but people do it. More power to them, either way.
However, there is something very strange about claiming to be so broken hearted by having been cheated on that you rush out and cheat with others. Your lover was young, horny and fickle. (That’s never happened to anyone who dates men. Nope. Only ladies do that.) You discovered life is not a Disney film. (Cue world’s tiniest violin) Now you’re the man encouraging cheaters to cheat on the men who trust them, because why? Because it makes you feel good to be the one cheating instead of being cheated on? You set out to “conquer” women’s bodies to prove what to yourself exactly? I don’t get it.
How is that ever going to end in asixpack being happy?
A more logical person might blame Disney for giving them unrealistic ideas about relationships*, but not this dude. Nope, it’s the fault of all women that he had unrealistic expectations.
*Still not very logical, but it would make more sense than “I thought The Little Mermaid was a documentary, and now I’m sad, which is women’s fault, so now I’m going to try to punish them by having casual sex with them”.
@Bina
I mean, it makes sense even without the anecdotes – people who are present in male groups assuming the absence of women tend to notice the most explicit and frightening misogyny. That’s because men are gradually losing the privilege of not being called out for misogyny, and women are the most sensitive to misogyny, so misogynist men feel more comfortable expressing misogyny when there are no women around. And since most men do not recognize us for who we really are, they feel comfortable talking shit about women as openly as they want even when us trans women around (and especially if there are only male-passing trans women in the group). I’m guessing this dynamic can be found among male-only MRA groups as well. Certainly it seems to happen even in places like reddit, where women can also be found but are often assumed to be absent anyway.
I wish more cis women paid more attention to trans women’s perspectives. A lot of cis women accept us, but mainly as tokens to be presented to dissenters as proof of patriarchy (even though I agree that the existence of transmisogyny is sufficient proof). Our perspectives matter not merely because they are ideologically useful, but mostly because they are marginalized and because they often contain a deeper experience with misogyny – both the kind that oppresses us and the kind that oppresses all women – than the perspectives of most cis women. It’s ironic because TERFs would like to have us believe that our perspectives are actually hindered by male privilege.
I keep reading his name as Assfax, which is about right.
Ally, I hope you’ve had the experience of being with all-male groups in which that kind of talk DOESN’T happen. Both for your sake, and theirs. Men can be fun to be around when they’re not assholes.
Speaking of which, asixpack reminds me of the Elvis Costello song, “What’s Her Name Today”. Self-medicating with alcohol is risky enough, but adding PUA sex sounds like a toxic combination. I will admit to having had a lot of sex in college, but I never did it out of hate.
I actually have a garage, by the way.
@Robert
Oh, I definitely have been with nice all-male groups. And I know some nice men as well. I just wish I didn’t run into so many all-male groups full of misogyny and other forms of bigotry.
I want to address the idea that “Game” is about confidence.
It’s shit. Wrapped around a small kernel of truth.
Being confident makes it a lot easier to get sex. But that’s not what sixpack is selling (and I keep seeing it as asspack, but I digress). He’s selling, “women are nasty, evil, creatures and you have to remember that if you want to fuck them.”
That last bit, where the active voice is reserved for the man is at the core of PUA Game. Women are targets, who have to be gamed into, “giving it up”, and all that crap.
Confidence is different.
I am confident women like sex.
I am confident some of them will be interested in having sex with me.
I am confident that if I am honest with them they will be honest with me.
I am confident the number who will be assholes is about the same as for men.
I am confident that if I treat them as people with agency, they will return the favor.
I am confident that these will combine so that women who are interested in having sex with me won’t decide I’m an asshole and so stop wanting to have sex with me, before we get to the sex part.
So far my confidence has worked out just fine.
RE: katz
Actual snake oil is full of omega-3s, so it actually is good for you.
I didn’t even know this was a THING. Fish oil, sure, but not snake oil. Learn something new every day!
RE: Asixpack
You say, “All i want now is to get over her, i thought sex would make it easier for me.” and then you immediately say, “PUA works for people like me.”
Yeah, beacuse you sound so fucking happy. Look at you, dude. You’re sharing your sob story with strangers on the Internet WHO ARE MOCKING YOU because that’s how lonely and isolated you feel, while at the same time claiming you are so fucking happy and alpha.
You’re not alpha. You’re a pathetic child who I feel very sorry for, and you’re acting like a total cockbite.
Once you start seeing women as sex objects, you dont have to care about what they may feel
Yes. And that’s disgusting. Because women have feelings. They are people. You’re sad, and gross, and I pity you. I am a disabled impoverish lunatic with a history that makes people cry, and I pity you.
Its who i am now and probably who i am going to be for the rest of my life.
Dude, grow up. You’re in college. You’re 22, tops. This isn’t who you’re going to be forever. You’re just entrenched in your pity party and pretend you are, and expect us to see you as tragically romantic. You are CHOOSING to be an asshole. That’s not fate, that’s not something you were pushed to, that’s YOUR FUCKING CHOICE. There ain’t nobody to blame but you, sunshine.
Asicpackofassfax: Let’s pretend “alpha” isn’t a steaming pantload for a hot second–if you’re so alpha, why are you here trying to convince us of this? You’d be off doing alpha things, not giving a fuck what we think.
RE: marinerachel
I do have some sympathy regarding how this could happen to otherwise decent guys though.
I don’t. I have higher standards for my gender.
I know that I’m getting punchy here, but the thing is, my rapist was like this. He treated me the way he did because he felt women were untrustworthy, so he had to stick to children, who were innocent and sweet and would never compare him to other lovers. People he could train to be Nice Girlfriends.
He liked to pull shit like this too–entrenched self-pity parties, so that me, the person he was raping every week, would have to comfort him and prop up his sorry ego. He was so wrapped up in his own little drama of the tragic misunderstood introvert man that he forgot that the person he was fucking would curl up in a ball and cry afterward. That or he just didn’t fucking care.
So when I say Asixpack coming in here acting like one girl being mean to him is worth him treating all women as holes to fuck, all while waiting for us to hold his little hand and pet his hair and go, “Aw, sweetie, it’s okay, betrayal sucks,” I get really fucking angry. Because you know what, I was a human fucktoy for a man like him, and I WASN’T A FUCKING ASSHOLE. I recognized that my problems were my fucking problems, and I grew the fuck up.
I have higher standards for men. I am one. I was raped and used and treated as meat, and I didn’t do it to anyone else afterward, because I KNEW HOW MUCH IT HURT.
What’s this guy’s excuse? Why should I hold him to such lower standards to myself? Where’s his fucking responsibility?
WHY DOES HE EXPECT US TO TAKE CARE OF HIS PRECIOUS FEELINGS?