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Yo, dudes: Alpha males are a myth, according to actual experts on wolves

Manosphere misogynists like to tell themselves fairy tales about women. Their favorite such tale, repeated endlessly, is one called “The Cock Carousel” – sometimes referred to in expanded form as the “Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel” or the “Bad Boy Cock Carousel.” (Hence that Rooster-riding gal you see in this blog’s header about half the time.)

Despite the different names, the story is always, monotonously, the same: In their late teens and twenties, when they’re at the height of their sexual appeal, women (or at least the overwhelming majority of them) have sex in rapid succession with an assortment of charismatic but unreliable alpha males and “bad boys” who make their vaginas (or just ‘ginas) tingle. Then, sometime in their mid-to-late twenties, these women “hit the wall,” with their so-called sexual market value (or SMV) dropping faster than Facebook’s stock price. As Roissy/Heartiste puts it, in his typically overheated prose:

So sad, so tragic, the inevitable slide into sexual worthlessness that accompanies women, the withering tick tock of the cosmic clock stripping their beauty in flayed bits of soulletting mignons like psychological ling chi. A sadistic thief in the night etching, billowing, draping and sagging a new affront to her most preciously guarded asset.

While many women try to pretend they’ve still “got it,” even at the ripe old age of thirty, they inevitably have to either get off or get thrown off the “cock carousel.” At this point the more savvy women glom onto some convenient “beta male” who, while somewhat lacking in sexual appeal, will at least be a good husband and provider for them – and in many cases the children they’ve had with alpha male seed. Those women who don’t accept the new reality are destined to end up alone and childless, surrounded by cats.

To borrow the phrase South Park used in its episodes about Scientology and Mormonism, this is what manosphere men actually believe. Not only that, but they claim that this fairy tale is based on real science.

So who are these mysterious alpha males that get the women so excited? As one guide to pickup artist (PUA) lingo puts it:

In animal hierarchies, the Alpha Male is the most dominant, and typically the physically strongest member of the group. For example, in wolf packs, the “alpha wolf” is the strongest member of the pack, and is the leader of the group. This position of leadership is often achieved by killing or defeating the previous Alpha Male in combat. Alpha wolves have first access to food as well as mating privileges with the females of the pack.

Social status among human social groups is less rigidly defined than in the animal kingdom, but there are some recognizable parallels. Although people don’t often engage in physical violence to achieve dominance, there are still recognizable leaders in different fields who have wide access to material resources and women.

Because the qualities of the Alpha Male (such as social dominance and leadership) are attractive to women, many PUAs have adopted these ideals as models of emulation. In fact, the term “alpha” has come be shorthand for the qualities of an attractive man, and it is a common refrain among PUAs to be “more alpha” or to “out alpha” competitors.

There’s a certain logic to all this. But unfortunately for the PUAs and other manospherians the notion of the Alpha male is based on bad science. The notion of Alpha dominance, as the definition above notes, came originally from studies of wolf packs. Even if we assume that wolf behavior is somehow a good model upon which to base our understanding of human romance  – as manosphere men and evolutionary psychologists tend to do – the science behind the Alpha male wolf has now come completely undone, with many of those who promulgated the theory in the first place decades ago now explicitly repudiating it.

The problem, you see, is that the studies underlying the notion of the alpha male wolf, who aggressively asserts his dominance over beta males in order to rule the pack, were all based on observations of wolves in captivity. In the real world, wolf packs don’t work that way at all. Most wolf packs are basically wolf families, with a breeding pair and their pups. When male pups reach adulthood, they don’t fight their fathers for dominance — they go out and start their own families.

As noted wolf behavior expert L. David Mech, one of those who helped to establish and popularize the notion of the alpha wolf in the first place, explains on his website:

The concept of the alpha wolf is well ingrained in the popular wolf literature at least partly because of my book “The Wolf: Ecology and Behavior of an Endangered Species,” written in 1968, published in 1970, republished in paperback in 1981, and currently still in print, despite my numerous pleas to the publisher to stop publishing it. Although most of the book’s info is still accurate, much is outdated. We have learned more about wolves in the last 40 years then in all of previous history.

One of the outdated pieces of information is the concept of the alpha wolf. “Alpha” implies competing with others and becoming top dog by winning a contest or battle. However, most wolves who lead packs achieved their position simply by mating and producing pups, which then became their pack. In other words they are merely breeders, or parents, and that’s all we call them today, the “breeding male,” “breeding female,” or “male parent,” “female parent,” or the “adult male” or “adult female.” In the rare packs that include more than one breeding animal, the “dominant breeder” can be called that, and any breeding daughter can be called a “subordinate breeder.”

So the dominant male wolves – those whom manosphere dudes would still call the alphas – achieve this position not by being sexy badasses but simply by siring and taking responsibility for pups. To use the terminology in the manner of manosphere dudes, alphas become alphas by acting like betas. That’s right: alphas are betas. (For more of the details, see this paper by Mech; it’s in pdf form.)

Also, they’re wolves and not humans, but that’s a whole other kettle of anthropomorphized fish.

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Lea
Lea
7 years ago

*applause*

fibiniachi, that was awesome!

fromafar,
Have fun on your getaway! The rings are lovely.

Fibinachi
7 years ago

Congratulations fromafar2013! That’s neat. And the rings are, indeed, lovely. Good choice on the tungsten carbide.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
7 years ago

Guys, please tell me if this comparison is out of line, but asixpack’s comments here remind me a lot of my mother’s abuse cycle: say something hurtful -> fauxpology -> I did it because I’m just in so much pain, let’s focus on my feelings -> you’re not coddling my felings -> say something hurtful. Also, the massive oversharing and expecting emotional support from people who job it’s not.

Combined with “I just loved her too much” (which was not an excuse my mother used, but I’ve heard it from abusive/jealous/controlling types), I’m just getting a lot of red flags from asixpack.

Assuming any of this is even true, of course. I don’t suppose we’ve done an IP check on this guy?

fromafar2013
7 years ago

I missed this the first read through.

was a virgin at 17 when my friend just felt pity on me and set me up with a girl

Seriously?

felt pity on me and set me up with a girl

felt pity on me and set me up with a girl

felt pity on me and set me up with a girl

And you’re surprised that this relationship didn’t work out? You’re surprised? Seriously?

http://cliff.hostkansas.com/images/2012/well_there's_your_problem.jpg

Maybe try dating someone you like and who likes you back for reasons not related to your friend setting you up for a PITY FUCK. Like being a virgin is a bad thing? Dude, you were better off single. And you might want to dump your shitty friends too.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

emilygoddess: It’s not out of line. Asixpack is displaying some classic abuser behavior.

Fibinachi
7 years ago

Oh no, that’s perfectly spot on emilygoddess. That’s what I was aiming it with that 5th stanza.

It’s also why this is so fucking skeevy – at least a lot of trolls are just angry, or just sad, or just blind, or upset, or they have a political point to make and you can respect them for having a stance even if that stance is terrible.

This is literally someone going “I know what poly is, but I would rather have casual sex with fuck-meat that ruins relationships, oh you find that offensive, you sluts, wait, don’t go, I’m sad, and I respect you all, I love you, you’re nice and I’m so sorry, I don’t think of women as people and I don’t see why treating them as dirt is wrong, because I was hurt by a woman, sorry if that was offensive, what i really meant was that I don’t think anyone is kind or honest and I am sad!”

You’re absolutely spot on. Classic abuse cycle.

Speaking of abuse cycles, if anyone is interested, I recommennd “Why Does He Do That”, a book I’ve been reading lately.

Malitia
Malitia
7 years ago

O.o I’m a 30 something virgin and wouldn’t accept “pity” as the basis for a relationship if my life depended on it. I’m also way more happy than the new TGHOW (Troll Going His Own Way, GHOW defined the same as in MGTOW so not going anywhere despite promising to do many times).

Viscaria
Viscaria
7 years ago

He runs through the abuse cycle faster than a clothes dryer. I think that’s what makes him so reminiscent of MR AL. Verbal abuse to apologies to pleas for sympathy to boundary violations back to verbal abuse, fast enough to make your head spin.

Viscaria
Viscaria
7 years ago

All with an undercurrent of “I don’t want to keep posting, I don’t want to keep using people, but you keep making me!”

pecunium
7 years ago

Asspack: How can i wreck relationships or force someone to cheat? Its the girl who was ready to cheat with me. A girl who was ready to cheat with me would have cheated with anyone at some point in her life

Nope. People aren’t perfect. There are time when people are vulnerable. A person of low moral fiber (or carrying a grudge), will exploit them in those moments of weakness. The younger someone is, the more likely they are to make a mistake; to be taken advantage of by someone who has an agenda.

Someone like you.

So you will push, and prod; buy them another drink, and work to get them to where you can, “do him a favor” by taking advantage of her weakness.

You’re an asshole.

pecunium
7 years ago

Asspack: I didnt want to comment here again.

So don’t.

@cassandrakitty, i dont understand whats wrong with me exposing women who cheat on their boyfriends. If it wasnt me, it would have been somebody else. Either way, when a person cheats, its their own fault and not their partners or the one who she/he cheated with. Their partners deserve to know that they have been cheated on.

Unh hunh. It’s a social service. You are targetting women, so you can use them to show how “all females” behave. Then, because you had a bad experience, try to make sure some other dude is hurt. You also want him to see, “how women are”. It’s not that you weren’t part of it, but “she cheated” (with you).

Nope, you didn’t have anything to do with it, it was all the Evil FEEEMALES fault.

I cant believe you’re trying to victim-blame here. Women are often told that their spouses cheating on them is their own fault for not pleasing him enough. Are you trying to pull that one on me?

No, she’s not. She’s saying that, (based on the evidence here), you aren’t a trustworthy person. Should your ex have broken up with you before she got involved with someone else? Yes.

But that’s not always the way it plays out. The intelligent person sucks it up and moves on. The immature cradle their hurt to their bosoms and pretend it’s a function of women (or men) to cheat, and that not a one of them can be trusted.

You target women who have partners. People, being people, some of them will cheat on those partners. Confirmation bias; and you get to stroke the pain you won’t let go of.

I’ll bet you are afraid she didn’t leave you because “women cheat”, but because she decided she’d made a mistake. That the real you (the one you use the bottle to let out) became as plain to her as it is to us.

And she didn’t like that you well enough to stick around. In which case, yes, you deserved to have her leave. Because you are an asshole.

, this is MY fucking life and i dont expect you to give a shit about it.

Yes you do. You keep trying to convince us that “It’s their fault”, and that you are some sort of Galahad on a white horse saving men from their folly by trying to convince women to cheat on their partners with you.

You’re an asshole, and dishonest to boot.

i really respect all your opinions

See, more lies.

pecunium
7 years ago

Asspack: @marinerachel, i agree that i am in the wrong for objectifying women and using them.

So you are a moral failure as a human being.

I plead guilty to those charges but i just can’t comprehend how the actions of cheating women and the blame of ruining their relationships can be pinned on me alone

You are thick. No one here has said the women are blameless. What we don’t agree with is your purity of heart and lack of agency. You pretend you are doing other men a service.

You say you have no fault, right here you make it plain you think you are doing nothing wrong, in any aspect of your behavior

Thats not to say there haven’t been many women in committed relationships who turned me down, but i just think they werent going to risk cheating with me and getting cauht at that time even though they totally wanted to cheat.

Even the women who turn you down aren’t good people. They aren’t faithful to their partner, or true to their promises. They just didn’t think it was worth it at that moment to cheat.

You don’t accept that you have any part in the equation at all.

If you scroll up a bit, you can see that i was called everything offensive under the sun from assfax to sixpackofdogshit

Ah…. an “I didn’t use “bad words” so no one can be rude to me argument.

You may not have used offensive nicknames, but you’ve been saying offensve things (women are weak, all women cheat, men defend women, women have the “advantage” of using sex to get ahead, women suffer less in war, etc.).

You said you have no problem treating women as objects because then you can ignore that they have feelings.

People took offense,rightly so; to a lesser degree than you deserve.

Get over it.

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

If screwed you, she’d screw anybody, huh?
That’s your excuse for being underhanded, assfax?
So you basically just admitted that you think you’re a stud because if a person has no standards and is looking to creep, you’ll do in a pinch.

Clearly, your “specialty” is thinking too highly of your skills.

Also,you’re making yourself look like a very silly person if you think getting laid on the regular makes you special. What are you 22? You’ve barely cleared puberty. You are not Casanova. Oodles of folks poke. It’s almost like we have some sort of drive that compels us to bump uglies. Maybe your little PUAsshole friends thought getting laid was the super coolest when you were in high school, but you’re a grown up now. No one is impressed.

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

correction: If she….

pecunium
7 years ago

Those are great rings (but they will be heavy; and they can scuff). My beloved got a ring with a spinning band made from Nickel-Iron Meteorite, for her other partner (or ours, it’s complicated).. It’s lovely.

katz
7 years ago

Fromafar: Hooray, let us know how it goes! And those rings are gorgeous!

Ally S
7 years ago

@Bina

It’s so ironic that they fight tooth and nail against the idea that brains have a sex (and it’s true that they don’t, but that’s not what transgender brain differences are anyway), but then they fall right back on that ol’ bio-twoofer sex essentialism when they pull this “male privilege” argument. It makes me want to strangle a tree. But I’m not the proper one to explain it to them, because it’s not my lived experience. And those whose lived experience it is, are often too busy struggling just to live, period, and they haven’t got time for this shit on top of all the other shit. I honestly can’t blame anyone who’s gone “deep stealth” in a simple effort to stay alive, sane and away from all the drama. I probably would, too, if that were me.

I have to say that it’s really refreshing to hear all of this coming from a cis woman. I wish there were more folks like you. I’m not giving you a cookie or anything, but I really appreciate it.

I’ve been tempted to pick fights with TERFs on Tumblr (especially those horrible trans women TERFs – yes, they do exist), but I can’t handle it. There is this one racist trans woman TERF on Tumblr who attacks and tries to dox trans women of color, especially two-spirit trans women. She also says very troubling things about dysphoria, claiming that our bodies are male no matter what we do to them or how we talk about them (“trans delusions”, as she says).

Bina
Bina
7 years ago

Ally, thanks, no cookie necessary. But the appreciation is appreciated, and reciprocated.

This, on the other hand…

There is this one racist trans woman TERF on Tumblr who attacks and tries to dox trans women of color, especially two-spirit trans women. She also says very troubling things about dysphoria, claiming that our bodies are male no matter what we do to them or how we talk about them (“trans delusions”, as she says).

…is a massive snarl of WTF. I’m trying to wrap my head around how someone can be so completely unaware of the irony of that, and I can only conclude that whoever this person is, she needs a LOT of help. She’s in a bad place, that’s for sure. And the fact that she’s trying to project her self-hatred outward, using other bigotries to bolster it, augurs badly. I hope she fails in what she’s trying to do to the others, and I hope they stay safe.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: emilygoddess

asixpack’s comments here remind me a lot of my mother’s abuse cycle

Ain’t just you. I told you how my rapist liked to use me as a sob sponge for how he was treated bad in high school by the popular kids, and that’s why he was reduced to fucking children. I honestly wish marinerachel would stop coddling his whiny ass; he’s not going to change. He just wants a mommy substitute who won’t actually do the things mommies do, like punish bad behavior.

RE: Asixpack

I had a big long snarkfest written out for you, but basically, you’re just jerking off to your own pain. I might as well leave you to your fucking misery, which you have brought entirely upon yourself and refuse to do anything about. Enjoy your hole, wanker. May your life continue being devoid of love and happiness until you pull your head out of your ass.

You’re whining that we’re not being civil to you. Are you not ALPHA, man? Can you not handle some good masculine ribbing?

Of course not. Because you’re pathetic.

emilygoddess
7 years ago

Are you not ALPHA, man? Can you not handle some good masculine ribbing?

Of course not. Because you’re pathetic.

Beautiful.

Asixpack, I know you’re ignoring everything we say because you assume we’re all women, and I probably shouldn’t support your misogyny by saying what I’m about to say, but: that bit I just quoted? Fibinachi’s little poem about you? Pecunium’s rants pointing out how wrong you are about everything ever? Those are all men telling you that your alpha male/pity party schtick is bullshit. Just in case you were thinking the only problem here was women not being nice enough, or whatever sexist band-aid you were putting over your wounded ego.

Anarchonist
Anarchonist
7 years ago

I’m not usually a big fan of tough love, since way too often, people use it in the completely wrong circumstances (you do not cure depression by “getting over it”, assholes in my family). However, I recognize from Asixpack’s tone of writing the same kind of unrelenting self-pity that I once wallowed in (with the exception that I didn’t learn how to essentially become a sociopath), and from which I only emerged after I subjected myself to “abuse”, a.k.a. very critical comments about my mindset, and let it sink in. No defensive retorts, no “woe is me”. Instead, I took the lessons to heart. I’m not gonna lie: it hurt. It hurt like hell, since I basically had to completely alter how I saw myself as a person. But I got it, and I grew enormously as a result.

So yeah, seconding LBT. Although marinerachel and others have had unbelievable patience so far, Asixpack’s now in the self-pitying cycle where he only wants to hear supportive comments in order to keep deluding himself that what’s happened to him is other people’s fault and that he’s a helpless victim, and that what he does is inconsequential in light of what a great guy he would be* if women weren’t all bad people. And he’s expecting women to tell him this. He’s being an asshole, and he needs to stop being an asshole.

Asixpack, you’re in the position where only you can help you. Many people have given you good advice in their comments. Go back and read all of them. Yes, even the ones that are mean. Read them and don’t get defensive. Don’t start going “boo-hoo, you’re right, I’m horrible, now coddle me again and tell me I’m not horrible”. That’s not going to help. You’re too close to your own situation to see it clearly, so try to listen to other people. Throw toxic masculinity out of the window and get help. You’ll be glad you did.

*This is one occasion where you should follow Batman’s advice: “It’s not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me”. It doesn’t matter if deep down, there’s still a good person inside you, if you only do shitty things.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: emilygoddess

Those are all men telling you that your alpha male/pity party schtick is bullshit.

Oh, he’s aware. From what I can tell, I’m the ONLY person he’s apologized to so far. Much as I’d like to think he actually appreciates my abuse history, I really think it’s just because he sees me as a man, and not sex-meat. He doesn’t seem to realize that my RAPIST saw me as sex-meat, so I can empathize with the women he treats so shittily.

As a guy who’s actually been through hell and depression and all that other shit, I have absolutely no patience for him.

RE: Anarchonist

I’m not usually a big fan of tough love, since way too often, people use it in the completely wrong circumstances

Yes, but another thing I think needs to be pointed out, aside from the things you mentioned already… dude pulled this shit AFTER SPEWING MISOGYNY AT US. We aren’t his friends and loved ones telling him to get over it. We’re strangers who he just treated like shit. We aren’t using ‘tough love.’ We’re giving him exactly what he served us.

I have known many men with such infantile feelings, using self-pity to escape any sort of self-criticism and concrete action. I already told you guys about my rapist and that dude who used my rape history to whine about how he never got laid! (And I repeat what I said then: he wasn’t the WORST reaction I’ve gotten to my rape history, merely the most entertaining.)

Asixpack is desperately trying to protect his own ego and feelings of righteous indignation, and I refuse to play to that. He’s a pathetic little child, and I’ve had a shitty mental health day of repressed memories coming back regarding the Raping Year, so taking a verbal bat to him is cathartic for me.

(Of course, were I a woman, I’m sure I’d just be a bitter misandrist old spinster.)

Robert
Robert
7 years ago

LBT, you would be a GREAT bitter misandrist old spinster. I’d take you out for cocktails and listen to you for hours.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: Robert

Well, we’re both married. We could double-date!

And yes, I greatly look forward to becoming a grizzled old battleaxe. It is among my greatest aspirations.

Asixpack
Asixpack
7 years ago

I honestly dont know how to respond to your comments.

I have decided to see a therapist and get this weight off my shoulders. I honestly want to be normal again.

I really appreciate everyone who took the time to respond to my rant which started with an unintentional post that led to this.

Peace.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

@ emilygoddess

Oh no, almost everyone here is seeing the abuser red flags, despite how hard dude is trying to gaslight us. I, too, wish that people wouldn’t coddle folks who act like that.

@fromafar

Good luck with the proposal!

marinerachel
marinerachel
7 years ago

You made the right decision, Mr. Pack.

Seriously, it’s apparent a lot of the super heinous things you’ve said here sounded perfectly reasonable to you and that indicates you’ve got a lot of unlearning to do. The good news is, by doing so, you’ll be a lot happier.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: Asixpack

I honestly dont know how to respond to your comments.

I’m not surprised. You seem completely devoid of self-reflection and analysis. Why WOULD you know how to deal with having your “alpha” ass served to you by a bunch of queers and feminists?

RE: marinerachel

The good news is, by doing so, you’ll be a lot happier.

I’m sure the women he treats as holes will be a lot happier too. Though I doubt he’s capable of caring, the little narcissist.

katz
7 years ago

I honestly dont know how to respond to your comments.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

Oh, are we doing dialogue via videos? Nothing seems to have worked so far, so let’s try some K-pop.

PS – My posting this video does not endorse killing your abusive boyfriend by making his racecar explode, before any MRA lurkers get pissy about that.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

Do I need to post ‘Alfie’ again? Because I totally can…

katz
7 years ago

My humble suggestion.

Robert
Robert
7 years ago

Do alpha males exist in Lion packs and Primates in the wild? Yes. So you can talk about your wolves all you want. You cannot change the fact that the alpha hierarchy exists in the natural world. In fact, forget wolves all together. Humans are primate and the alpha hierarchy exists and has been thoroughly documented, again, in primates since, forever.

-1 point for feminist propaganda.

pecunium
7 years ago

Robert: Are people wolves? No. So you can talk about your, “alpha males” all you like, the base idea is wrong.

And your examples are wrong; lions don’t have, “alphas” they have harems. It’s a different model. Primates with Alphas (e.g. baboons) also have Alpha females. Which tosses the whole, “Alpha Male” idea out the window, because he doesn’t get to choose, she does. And the role of “Alpha” is defined by how the others in the pack are willing to grant him the status. It’s not inherent, it’s emergent.

But hey, you can wank to the idea that some males are “more male” than others. I’ll be over here with the informed people talking about things of interest.

weirwoodtreehugger
7 years ago

Robert,

We already have a Robert here who isn’t a troll. You should pick another name if intend on commenting again. When you do, please provide an actual citation that humans have alphas and betas.

weirwoodtreehugger
7 years ago

This thread sure gets a lot of necro trolls.

kittehserf
7 years ago

So, Robert-who’s-not-our-regular-Robert-who-is-cool, you think humans should go with your (wrong) notions of how other primates behave?

You’re fine with, oh, infanticide, for instance?

You think we’d better get rid of unnatural things like clothes and houses and computers and vaccinations and writing and cooking?

No?

Then why do you expect humans to behave according to this one (fallacious) model of behaviour when we’re far from being the prisoners of biology elsewhere?

Couldn’t be because you fancy the idea of men forcing women back into a “natural”, subservient role, could it?

katz
7 years ago

Robert is just sore because he conclusively argued that poo-flinging is a well-documented trait among primates, but he got thrown out of the grocery store anyway.

kittehserf
7 years ago

LOL!

weirwoodtreehugger
7 years ago

He probably spreads Ebola too.

marinerachel
marinerachel
7 years ago

Some fucking tool on an atheist forum told me illegalising having multiple sex partners for women but permitting men to engage in sex with a variety of partners is reasonable BECAUSE GORILLAS WILL KILL RIVAL MALES! SCIENCE!

How the fuck does that even follow? How does “Gorillas do it” make it reasonable or a good idea for people?

Ah, the arguments people will use to force women into subservient, deprived roles.

kittehserf
7 years ago

Did that PoS want to be killing rival males, too? Because the numbers don’t seem to work out otherwise.

I guess he’d be right down with FGM and all the other horrors inflicted on women to make sure we aren’t interested in sex, too.

mildlymagnificent
7 years ago

Why choose gorillas or wolves or lions as models when there are animals much closer to us in species terms? We have chimpanzees and we have bonobos. Why would we not follow either the parallel dominant males and females of the chimps and let them keep the rest of us in line, or we could go with the bonobo style of everybody tries very hard to be calm and nice – and sexy with – everybody else to keep the group together and healthy and peaceful?

Or … … we could look at our own social and sexual relationships as though they’re our own. Fancy that!

It’s very interesting to look at other animals and the similarities and differences among all of us. And that’s exactly what that is — and all it is. Interesting.

Luzbelitx
7 years ago

or we could go with the bonobo style of everybody tries very hard to be calm and nice – and sexy with – everybody else to keep the group together and healthy and peaceful

I dream of a community like this.

No, not because “bonobos do it”, but because it sounds like everyone involved in it would win (especially compared to, you know, the world as it works right now)

But then again, win-win scenarios are not MRAs specialty, unles both “win” go to the man.

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

Other Robert,
I’ve been a Jane Goodall fan since I could read. We can talk chimps if ya wanna.

In chimp society it has been noted that when the lead male makes a decision, none of the chimps follow him until the matriarchs get up and follow. When they don’t follow him, he sits and picks at his fur for a while and then makes a different decision. This goes on until he makes a decision the matriarchs approve of.

As for gorillas, they eat their own shit. It doesn’t hurt them. It’s something they’ve evolved to do. I don’t recommend that people try it. Being a primate does not mean being identical to other primates. We are related to all life on this planet. That doesn’t mean we behave like ears of corn. Go forth and study. You don’t know half what you think you do.

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

I also want to point out to these manly macho wannabe types that the first people to study the behaviors of chimps and gorillas in the wild were women.

Jane Goodall and Diane Fosse are the folks you can thank for our greater understanding of other primates. Put that in ya pipe and smoke it.

Robert
Robert
7 years ago

@pecunium

“The battle for alpha female; Ashanti vs Phyre”

http://ngamo.wordpress.com/2011/03/19/the-battle-for-alpha-female-ashanti-vs-phyre/
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“But hey, you can wank to the idea that some males are “more male” than others. I’ll be over here with the informed people talking about things of interest.”

“One of the outdated pieces of information is the concept of the alpha wolf. “Alpha” implies competing with others and becoming top dog by winning a contest or battle.”

http://www.davemech.org/news.html

Don’t male lions fight each other to take over the pride and then if there are cubs the new males kill them to ensure only their offsprings continue? Yes, they do. Primates also fight for dominant position in a group. Human (primate) exibit this behavior. From the school yard to the work environment some men have the innate urge to one-up or out-do others and woman with other woman.
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“Anatomy of the Alpha Male From Identification to Impersonation”

http://www.bodylanguageuniversity.com/public/239.cfm
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@Luzbelitx

“But then again, win-win scenarios are not MRAs specialty, unles both “win” go to the man.”

Sounds more like feminism. Woman want equality! But still want the door opened for them, meals paid for on a date, of course (!), and get on the life boat while the men stay behind cause there’s not enough space, etc etc etc. Woman want equality while keeping all of the benifits the traditional woman gets.

You feminists aren’t fooling people with your double standards and hypocrisy.
_________________

All people were not created equal. It’s that simple. All this feminist propaganda isn’t going to change millions of years of evolution. The feminist goal of destroying the alpha male amongst other aspects of socoiety is disgusting. And weak people latch on. Feminism, the new religion, thank you feminism, for without you, we wouldn’t have the Fat acceptance movement. Laugh. Feminists accept and respect a womans choice (!), unless it’s wanting to be a stay at home mom.

http://thoughtcatalog.com/amy-glass/2014/01/i-look-down-on-young-women-with-husbands-and-kids-and-im-not-sorry/

grumpycatisagirl
7 years ago

Setting to ignore teal deer from the non-cool-Robert because my word, upon skimming it looks extra extra boring.

I’ve seen Jane Goodall speak twice! And last month she signed my copy of her book.

Robert
Robert
7 years ago

@Lea

Primate Sociality and Social Systems

http://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/primate-sociality-and-social-systems-58068905
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Dominance hierarchy

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Dominance_hierarchy
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Individual differences versus social dynamics in
the formation of animal dominance hierarchies

“Linear hierarchies, the classical pecking-order structures, are
formed readily in both nature and the laboratory in a great range of species including humans. However, the probability of getting linear structures by chance alone is quite low. In this paper we investigate the two hypotheses that are proposed most often to explain linear hierarchies: they are predetermined by differences in the attributes of animals, or they are produced by the dynamics of social interaction, i.e., they are self-organizing. We evaluate these hypotheses using cichlid fish as model animals, and although differences in attributes play a significant part, we find that social interaction is necessary for high proportions of groups with linear hierarchies. Our results suggest that dominance hierarchy forma-
tion is a much richer and more complex phenomenon than previously thought, and we explore the implications of these results for evolutionary biology, the social sciences, and the use of animal models in understanding human social organization.”

http://www.pnas.org/content/99/8/5744.full.pdf

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

Grumpycat,
That’s awesome.
Seconding not riding that teal deer. I also gave it a skim over. We’ve got another idiot pulling assfax out of his butt again. Looks like he’s enjoying that fight with the star feminist he built. Maybe she’ll pay attention to him.