So the top post in the Men’s Rights subreddit for a time yesterday, with hundreds of upvotes, was a post devoted to the question: “Why should male gamers change their behavior?” Yep, apparently the sacred right of men and boys to harass women and girls on Xbox live is one of the most important Men’s Rights issues of the day. Here’s how the OP, IsItRacistToAsk, framed the issue:
[G]amers themselves (until relatively recently) were a 90% male community. This goes back really far if you count non-video-game games (like Dungeons and Dragons and the like). Now all of a sudden they’re expected to just behave differently because some girls want to join?
I’m not saying girls shouldn’t be welcome in gaming communities, I’m just comparing them to someone who shows up, uninvited, to a house party and demands everyone go out and get blue plastic cups because red offends her.
Well, no, it’s more like a girl or a woman going to a public event, open to everyone, and facing a small army of creepy dudes who come up to her making sandwich jokes and calling her a bitch and a whore and a fat slut and demanding that she show her tits and when she refuses telling her “I hope your vibrator shorts out and fries your fucking vagina.”
The OP’s response to harassment? Well, guy gamers regularly get called “faggot” and “n*gger,” so girls and women should just suck it up.
Yeah, it would be too much to ask to suggest that guy gamers actually stop calling each other racist and homophobic slurs as well. Because, really, how can you possibly enjoy Call of Duty without calling some guy who’s just shot you a “fag.” Seriously, gals, you need to model yourselves on the mostly straight white dudes of Reddit who really don’t mind when people call them “n*ggers” and “fags.”
The discussion (more than 700 comments worth at the moment) is about as terrible as you might expect, filled with epic shitlordery and self-congratulation and calls for the gals to “man the fuck up,” with only a handful of commenters having anything bad to say about the culture of harassment in online gaming. Indeed, most of the gamers in the conversation seem to feel proud that online gaming culture is as shitty as it is.
Some highlights:
JonLR won himself more than a hundred upvotes for this self-congratulatory assholery:
By asking to never be made fun of, they’re essentially asking for special treatment. These days, ‘gamer girls’ go on and on about wanting to be treated like everyone else, but then cry when they are?
I used to play Quake 1 online, and a lot of the players knew I was short (5’7″). I got called a fucking midget every game, haha. My asian clanmate got called a chink every game. Fat people got called fat, girl players got called sluts, everyone made fun of everyone. No one cared. It was all aimed at throwing people off their game.
What the fuck happened in the past 15 years that made it the worst thing imaginable to insult a girl in gaming? Whatever it was, it’s embarrassing to witness.
Oneiorosgrip got nearly two hundred upvotes for her special snowflaking:
I’m not a video gamer – long time tabletop gamer though…
Remembering when I was the only girl in the group, it strikes me that modern gamer girls are spoiled princesses who expect to walk a path they did not forge, without ever seeing any of the dirt along the side. Those of use who played before there was internet, before there was linking between video game systems… before there were RPGs on video game systems, for that matter… we didn’t earn our place among the gaming community by whining about shit like that. You had to be able to take it, and dish back, or you took your dice and went home.
I took my dice and went home only once, and found that to be a wholly unsatisfying response. After that, I learned to eschew restraint and mouth off in kind. That was more effective, and more fun, and I think it would be the more appropriate handling of today’s gaming environment, as well.
In other words, IMO, modern girl gamers really just need to man the fuck up.
Men’s Rights subreddit regular Demonspawn was his normal charming self:
Men take the shit to make a niche, once it’s successful women want to take it over.
This is the world order, nothing new about it. I’m just glad that gamers are finally saying “No.”
Sidetracking got dozens of upvotes for suggesting that women and girls just hide their identity and pretend to be guys, because gamer girls who acknowledge their gender online are just attention whores hungry for female privilege anyway:
When anybody plays a video game, without talking, they are pretty much concealed. Nobody really knows what gender, age, etc. In real life, girls expect this privileged talking, because people want to engage in intercourse with them, however, over a video game, this privilege is gone. In order to get the privilege back they say “Hey, I’m a girl”, not knowing that this privilege is completely removed over the internet. Then they get over-sensitized when someone calls them a bad name, when they don’t realize that pretty much everyone calls anyone out over the internet.
Daysleepin83 also got dozens of upvotes for talking about the kinds of “gamer girls” he hates the most: The ones who complain and the ones who, evidently,wear no clothes.
For the most part i really don’t give two shits about what sex my opponent is.
But there are two types of “gamer girls” that really piss me off. There are those like Anita Sarkeesian who seem to bitch and nag about all that is sexist and wrong with video games. Doesn’t really offer any solution to the problems she digs up, aside from telling us we need to change. …
Then there is the second group, they don’t so much as piss me off but more like aggravate me. The sexy gamer girl. … Could she be a legitimate gamer? Sure of course she could be. I could also one day become the Pope. Till she puts some clothing on and picks up that controller i am not going to take her serious as a gamer.
MrDorph explained that he hates those “girl gamers” who “have to shove down your throat.” (Shove what? Your own assholery?)
The issue I have is girl gamers who have to shove down your throat. I imagine the majority just don’t give a shit and tend not to talk or if they do its not provocative. The moment I hear “hey guys” I leave, I can’t be bothered with the shit storm that comes with it.
Ghebert001 told the “poor things” to get used to shitty treatment, in online gaming and everywhere else:
Bottom line is women need to learn to adapt to the “environment” (environment meaning gaming community, workplace, etc.) instead of always expecting that the “environment” adapt to them and use language like “it makes me uncomfortable” to shame others in that “environment” to accommodate them at their own expense.
Throwing in the obligatory, “women” =/= all women…don’t want to offend the poor things. Oh wait, there I go accommodating again!
Yourotherusername wins points for pomposity with this response to the OP:
Well put. Like many things, the environment of gaming has it’s own language. It isn’t the language of Shakespeare or high-finance. It’s high context communication. It’s code. It isn’t (usually) to be take at face value. The problem for the people who complain, is that the marketers who attracted them to play the game, didn’t tell them how the game is played and the vocabulary needed.
If a person hangs out with a group of people not in their normal click, they need to understand that what is being said, might not actually be what was meant, and until they grasp the context, they need to keep their mouth shut if they don’t want to look like an asshole. I’d much rather ‘learn the language’ than try to change a sub-culture.
Take reddit for example. Expect masturbation jokes. Expect memes. Expect stereotypes. But in all of that, you will find that once you adapt and understand the context, it becomes more than a middle school locker room (especially in the smaller subreddits). IF you are so bold as to challenge the nature of communication on Reddit by admonishing others and trying to get them to change their way, you will be anathema, and most likely down voted to hell. The best you can do to change the language, is to be an example of what you want, and hope to flying spaghetti monster, that it catches on.
TLDR: Go with the flow or don’t go at all.
Reddit: Awful and proud of it.
Meanwhile, elsewhere on the Men’s Rights subreddit, someone has once again posted a link to the “The Catalogue of Anti-Male Shaming Tactics,” because god forbid anyone ever say anything “shaming” about MRAs for being the shitty people they are.
Also, how can anyone read the comment that’s pictured above and still defend this shit?! “Trash talking to put people off their game?!” Serioiusly?! That asshole followed her to her profile to threaten her with rape and violence after the game was over. And complaining about it is “victim mentality?!” Frankly, if sadistically following someone you have a grudge against and threatening to shoot her in the cunt is part of your “culture,” then yes, IT NEEDS TO BE CHANGED.
If wanting to participate in a fun hobby without getting demands to see ‘titties’ or death/rape threats is “destroying yet another male space”, then that reflects really poorly on men, doesn’t it? In fact, if it weren’t for the many counterexamples of decent men who do not engage in this behaviour, we’d be looking at a pretty good argument for womens’ separatism.
— This bit contains a particularly threatening quote I got off Fat, Ugly or Slutty. —
Oh, and Phil? ‘F*g’ is not a gendered slur. It is a sexuality-based slur. It’s primarily used on gay men, yes, but it’s insulting them for being gay, not for being men. Please find a slur against the male gender if you want to try equivalence like that. And no, creep does not count. If you think “fuck u bitch fuck I will rape u in the pussy fuck u”* is an acceptable way of expressing yourself as a gamer and/or as a man, then you are a creep at best.
* http://fatuglyorslutty.com/2012/06/13/divine-calling/
Wow, Polliwog, that was an epic pwn! Internet high five.
Falconer and Shade, I decided to try a Bosmer archer in Skyrim. I hadn’t done one of those yet. HOLY MOLY is that fun!! Stealth shooting bandits from yards away before they even know I’m there. Is there a way to quickly switch between weapon sets on the PS3, because I can’t figure it out. Going to the menu every time is a pain in the butt.
See these dudes are trying to apply ‘male space’ because they saw feminists were using the term ‘women’s space’ and it looked shiny. So, dudes, if you are reading this- a space is not a men’s space because it is male dominated. Many of those spaces are known as ‘public spaces’.
I read through some of the responses on the thread, and it surprised me to see a few men speaking up against the sexist, racist and homophobic slurs. If the community truly wants gaming to be seen by the public as an acceptable hobby for normal adults, it’s an issue that needs to be addressed because it makes all gamers look bad.
I can’t believe that Phil actually thinks ‘fag’ is a gendered insult against men. If anything, it’s a gendered insult against women applied to men by comparison. The stereotype of gay males is they’re ‘girly’, ie men with feminine traits. In the eyes of people who fling around the word, feminine traits are seen as weak and lesser. Female traits aren’t as good as male traits. It’s no different than a boy on the playground calling another boy a girl as an insult.
I’ve never played RPGs online. For me the fun is in watching people act, seeing how well they portray their character. Often these are characters that I have written for tournament play and I love seeing people play differing interpretations of the character I’ve given them. I also play and run ‘home’ games, played on table top, or physically acted in small groups.
I’ve been organizing conventions, designing games and playing for thirty years and I think online culture must be very different to the kind of friendly, inclusive gaming culture I’m used to. The last time someone had the gall to heckle me for being a gamer while female was when I was twenty two and some daft fourteen year old wanted me disqualified from tournament play because he felt that a. my being a woman prejudiced the judges in my favor b. I must have slept with all of them to be winning so often. The organizers tossed him out of every convention in the city where I live permanently. There has been no more of this bullshit since. Our numbers are about 50/50 and woman players and designers are actively welcomed. It’s quite possible to compete without all this nastiness and trash talk to fellow gamers. Games are supposed to be fun or people will either leave or try and change gaming culture.
What I’m not understanding about the arguments that the online gamers use is that the companies who make the games obviously want as many players as possible and they really aren’t going to care too much about the sex of the players. More players=more money for the companies=more new games being produced. So why are these idiots shooting themselves in the foot? It’s to their advantage to encourage as many new players as possible regardless of the sex of those players.
Or are they simply mean-spirited, short-sighted arseholes who should be ignored so the rest of us can have some fun?
Back in the 90’s, when I was a teen, I would play video games with some of my friends, my brother, and some of his friends. Our favorite games were MarioKart64 and Goldeneye 007. We would tease and rib each other all the time, but we never used verbally abusive slurs and threats. Oh my gosh, if someone had told me Tits or GTFO, I’m pretty sure that would cause a fight. There are some things you just don’t say to another guy’s sister (and cue MRA whining that big brothers are “white knights”.)
I guess now with the online gaming, people don’t see each other face to face, so they feel more emboldened to use all sorts of racist, sexist slurs. I wish it was like how it was 20 years ago, when people could have fun competitions and even trash talk without resorting to using rape and death threats, etc. As it is, there are a lot of women like me who will just use male monikers and avoid speaking into the headset, just to be able to play a game without all the bs. Then guys like Phil will assume we are men, and that reinforces his idea that videogames are for men only.
Oh and Phil, how do you know what Anita Sarkeesian will say in her video Tropes vs. Women in Videogames? She hasn’t even made it yet.
I read through some more of the entries over at Fat, Ugly or Slutty, and one thing they have in common is that these are comments made by men (and boys) who have lost the game to “a girl.” So, apparently part of your “culture” is to be a bunch of crybaby sore losers? Well, that’s definitely something to cherish and maintain.
@blitzgal
Use the “favorites” feature inside the menu to assign weapons to a favorites menu. You can access the favorites menu during a battle and quickly change weapons. You can put potions or spells in the favorites menu as well.
I think female gamers (and dudes who think sexism is fucked up) should organize a day where we all ruin online gaming for sexist men. Why not? They do it to us all the fucking time, and it is usually not hard to ruin a game. Just sabotage your own team or cheat or whatever the fuck.
If nothing else, the cries of dudely gamers about how unfair and mean we all are would be worth it. They won’t know exactly what it feels like to be shit on for what you are, but they will feel the wrath of a large group of people who have no interest in fairness. Its close enough for their feelings to get hurt I’m sure.
I’ve noticed that dudes, especially ones who call for women/minorities/whoever to “man up” and deal with their bullshit usually cannot deal with a tiny fraction of the same type of shit being aimed their way. Its a brand new thing to them so they suck at dealing with it. A few of them might learn something from the ordeal.
Aww…Phil is justifying misogyny and then threatening us with more misogyny if we don’t shut up about it. Shove it dude. Man if MRAs think we have to just accept misogynist slurs as part of the culture fine, then same goes if womem use misandrist slurs right? Tiny-dicked creepy neckbearded pedo losers who women would barf if they saw your face irl
Suck it up DUDES, its your culture :p
>2). Gamer Girls complain about representations of women, and this is highly hypocritical considering they never bother to mention that it’s equally as bad for men. For every sexy video game vixin, there’s a male cannon fodder soldier who’s a meathead that doesn’t show any emotions.
You should make a video about that subject and put it on youtube. And watch your fellow men call you a fag two thousand time in a row.
Yeah, I finally found that. I put the bow on “favorite” and then the dual blades as my main equipment and that made is easy to switch between the two.
Jeez, Phil, that’s just weak sauce. Here at Manboobz, we expect people to bring their A-game. 2/10.
There, trash talk without sexism or homophobia.
I saw a video once — maybe it was on Cracked? Where a man and woman (both young) were gaming on, like, Xbox live or something, and the man started trash-talking the woman. She started trash talking back, and then another gamer got on – but it was another woman. And another. And another. And pretty soon, it was one man and ten women, and the women were saying to the man all of the horrible shit that male gamers usually say to female gamers, except when you reverse the genders it no longer actually has a connotation of violence so it’s ridiculous sounding.
Seriously. RIDICULOUS.
Also, Phil’s whinging sounds an awful lot like Steele’s “male disposability” nonsense.
Whataboutthemoonz, was it this?
Polliwog, thank you for taking on that steaming pile of sh– from Phil.
@some guy bored with your schtick. Thank you for pointing me in the direction of Shakesville.
Yeah, thanks, Polliwog. I saw that dude and was just like “Do I want to deal with this? No.”
That sandwich he’s making sucks.
Guy srsly needs to gb2 the kitchen and at least learn how to prepare an okay sandwich.
I did a lot of tabletop gaming in my youth and arcade games. Generally, people in the arcade were busy with their game, occassionally some doofus would think I was there to be picked up.
Tabletop gaming was pretty damn civil. Usually if some guy was going to trash talk me or had it out for my character because I was a girl, hed find that he wasn’t welcome back. Had a couple major campaigns where I’d be all “hey, where’s so and so?”. I get a lot of poker faces and an explanation of “he’s busy with other stuff”. And someone would be asked if they wanted to roll up a new character of whatever class was needed.
This level of shit? That’s new to gaming. And as far as I can tell, it started with interactive online games. These same idiots woud likely be trying to get into a womans pants if it were face to face, but since its not then they pull this bullshit
I agree that it’s the anonimity that brings out this kind of behavior. I’m reminded of the early advertisements for internet services, one showing school children in America communicating with school children in Asia, the implication being that the world wide web would create world peace. Yeah, I don’t see that happening either.
So. I think its time to point out that if your role play/onlIne group is 90+% men 98% of the time…your doing something very wrong and its not just while you’re playing.
I don’t think I’ve ever been in a group that wasn’t close to an even split in genders.
This is just silly. I live with two guys. We all like video games, but vary in skill and ability (I definitely place LOWEST). We play together alot, but we don’t throw slurs at each other. I suppose ‘trash talking’ is fun, but more like self-congratulating laughing evilly when you snatch a victory away from someone or go from being the underdog to winning. I know I suck compared to them, but that’s not the point, we’re trying to entertain ourselves.
If I play a game with someone who doesn’t play games, I try to go gently and help them to do easy things. Why why why do you need to insult and belittle and demean someone to play a game with them. It’s fun to be competitive, but only when you are all friends and laughing along together. I don’t feel any camaraderie with some dude on XBOX.