Oh, Reddit, where the demographics are so skewed that virtually every discussion amongst and/or about women ultimately gets taken over by dudes doing the old “what about the dudes” routine. It’s no secret that the TwoXChromosomes subreddit has long been overrun with MRAs and FeMRAs. And now it’s become pretty clear that the Feminism subreddit has gone MRA as well.
If you want all the details of the drama, here’s a thread in the subreddit in which the feminists who’ve stuck with the subreddit take on the MRAs and MRA-symps amongst the mods.
Check out the Feminisms and SRSWomen subreddits if you want to discuss feministy stuff on Reddit without having to deal with endless derailing from MRAs and other shitlords.
EDITED TO ADD: More links:
SRS takes on the whole mess (lots of useful links).
SRS links to r/feminism mods defending MRAs
An r/feminism thread about the recent Captain Awkward posts about creeps that is, naturally, full of endless hang-wringing about the evils of “creep-shaming.”
(Thanks, Cliff, for the links.)
@aworldanonymous: I was (mostly) raised by books and subsequently don’t always interpret people well.
I really, really learned about personal space during the time I worked with people who were severely paranoid; I would sometimes get too close or get between a person and the door. Because I specifically asked, they’d be sure to warn me when they started to get anxious so I could back off or get out of their way. A few of my coworkers, who were not so careful, were injured when they didn’t pay attention or didn’t ask permission.
I’ve used what I learned there in my interactions with people who don’t suffer from paranoia, and when things don’t seem to be going well for no reason I can see, I ask, “What can I do differently to improve our relationship?” Coworkers seem to value this, and I’ve learned a lot. I don’t have to ask my friends anymore, they just tell me now.
I guess what I am saying is let people know you don’t always understand your effect on them and let them know you’ll modify your interactions if they tell you. People who would make good friends WILL tell you.
“You don’t have to like everbody, but you do have to learn to get along with people whom you are repulsed by and who even make you a little uncomfortable.”
No, no, and again, no!
This is terrible advice, good grief! If someone were to take it and be victimized, then you’d say it was all her fault for not avoiding someone who set off all the alarm bells!
You’re also really, really bad at ridicule, NWO. I mean really bad at it.
No, you don’t get to say that just because nothing happened to Watson, she had no reason to feel afraid.
But thanks for telling women how they can feel, you asshole. Bet you wouldn’t stand for it if we tried to tell you what to feel!
Actual feminist Rebecca Watson!
Oh NWO. It’s very sweet of you to pay me so much attention, but I’m still not going out with you.
(I love how he punctuates all his comments with “HOLLY HOLLY YOUR NAME IS HOLLY” like it’s this big secret he knows about me, too. I think he’s trying to misgender me but he doesn’t quite know how.)
(Or maybe he thinks he can perform spells on me if he knows my True Name.)
Oh, Owly. Yes, you should read Ayn Rand! All of her novels at least twice, in English, Russian, AND Spanish!
…now that I’ve given him about 2 years’ worth of reading…
…lauralot, if you ever go to Germany there is a museum of torture in Rothenburg, along the super-touristy Romantic Road. You’ll have to share it with tour groups from Baptist churches, which is a bit weird, but it’s pretty awesome.
In re: Aspies being creepy, I have a friend who has Asperger’s syndrome and is the soul of politeness and consideration. Because she’s worked super hard on her social skills. Yes, she might tell you the entire plot of the fourth season of Farscape if you don’t stop her, but oddly enough she doesn’t seem to be in the habit of violating people’s boundaries. Funny how it’s only men with Asperger’s who get a pass. Nothing to do with male privilege, amirite?
The trick is to say it backwards while summoning Old Ones.
Ylloh! Ylloh! Ylloh! Cthulhu fhtagn! Ylloh ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn! Ycarc’ovrep Ff’lic!
NWOSlave is actually, well, sort of… not right, exactly, but I have been meaning to ask this question. If many feminists are going to decry slut-shaming as we do then how are we going to make such, frankly, lazy statements in response to cries of creep-shaming? That creeps should feel ashamed, that the problem is in them for making other people uncomfortable, that they should abide by the standards we set for what is acceptable public behaviour… these are all things I’ve heard said about ‘sluts’ before. If we don’t want to be open to the kind of NO U! response Slavey uses above then we need to do better. Where do we start? How do the two ideas (sluts vs. creeps and slut-shaming vs. creep-shaming) differ such that it can be be valid to ‘creep-shame’ but not to slut-shame.
The first thing that springs to my mind is that ‘slut’ refers to something a person chooses to do with their own sexuality and body (and, perhaps, with others who consent). A creep seems to be someone whose body and sexuality are imposed on another who has not been asked for consent and perhaps who as even explicitly stated their lack of consent for the creep’s attention. Even that is a lacklustre differentiation, though. Both ‘sluts’ and creeps are called those names in large part because they make other people uncomfortable and those people want to control the actions that make them uncomfortable. I feel like what I’ve tried to develop above isn’t robust enough. If what makes creeps creepy is that they impose emotional intimacy on those who do not want it I have a difficult time seeing how that is essentially different from ‘sluts’ who impose a sense or image of intimacy (revealing, sexual clothing and acts) on those in public who also do not want it. I feel like I’ve missed something important here but I’m having trouble figuring out what it is. Is it that creeps impose physical intimacy, too? That doesn’t seem to be the case, at least not universally. Until I see what the major difference is I have to consider that maybe we’re wrong is creep-shaming is a real thing. Even a broken clock, etc.
Begin blog commenter shark week. And me without a steel cage!
“(I love how he punctuates all his comments with “HOLLY HOLLY YOUR NAME IS HOLLY” like it’s this big secret he knows about me, too. I think he’s trying to misgender me but he doesn’t quite know how.)”
Well, it just enrages him so much that you would use a fake name like Cliff, and he’s trying to let you know that if he wants, he could expose you to the entire Pervocracy family!
NWO Slave would never use a psuedonym. When he was born, his mother (Jessica Slave) took one look at the Fishcher-Price My First Milking Machine clasped in his tiny hand and said “Nwooooah!”, and so he was named.
It wasn’t until puberty that he turned into a pair of forearms with chains on them, like you see in his headshot there.
Donsie – You answered your own question:
That’s it, right there. And it’s a big goddamn deal.
The difference between “slut” and “creep” is the difference between “I don’t like people with tattoos” and “I don’t like people who try to force me to get tattooed.”
That is not subtle or minor or “well but it’s all to do with tattoos, right?” in any way.
because ‘creep-shaming’ isnt a real thing
Yes, exactly. This is offensive, why? This may come as a shock to you, but I’ve been ignored by plenty of men in my lifetime. Maybe because I creeped them out, maybe because I wasn’t as pretty or as outgoing as a number of my girlfriends, maybe because I didn’t tolerate rape jokes as much as everyone else, maybe a combination of all of the above. Sure, it kinda sucked since I’m attracted to dudes and all, but I never had the temerity to demand that they were bad horrible people for ignoring me. That’s stupid. They’re allowed to ignore me. I’m allowed to ignore them. That IS part of being an independent human being.
In the same way I’m allowed to avoid people who make me uncomfortable, men who lean in too close, make lewd comments, touch me in inappropriate places, you’re perfectly allowed to avoid the women and all the non-straight, non-cis folks you hate so much. In fact, I think it’s probably best for everyone if you DO avoid all the people you hate, seeing how that’s mostly everyone.
*you being NWO, not Holly, in case that wasn’t clear
“Sluts” make other people uncomfortable because those people have a problem with the sexual autonomy of others. “Creeps” make other people uncomfortable by making them feel unsafe.
What Tulgey said.
Challenge accepted.
Might take a while though, I need to get a proper mic and stuff if I’m gonna do it.
I’ve been to that museum! I loved it. I couldn’t read any of the placards, but it turned out I knew what everything did anyway. It was fantastic.
@Donsie: The term “slut” is a foundational part of rape culture, i.e. a slut is a promiscuous woman who is the binary opposite of a virgin and who can, therefore, be raped (though in this misogynistic claim, it’s not rape, because she’s a slut who’s asking for it)
There is NO FRAKKING REALITY whereby men who are called “creeps” are raped for that.
This is such an outandingly simple concept that I suspect you are a troll JAQing off (Just Asking Questions, which I learned at freethoughtblogs!).
Are you?
ALso, OMG, a book about women aspies!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/women_shealth/7944522/Help-at-last-for-the-Aspergirls.html
*jumps up and down and puts on list to buy maybe on new kindle fire which I just bought yesterday in a fit of extravance*
What Sharculese said–creep shaming isn’t real.
@Ithiliana
I have that book! Mum gave it to me whilst helping me to move into my new uni flat, and then regretted doing so instantly.
(Good book + ridiculously comfy snuggly bliss sofa = very distracted CWS)
No, instead men who are called “creeps” are systematically denied sex, which as we all know is the equivalent of being raped.
/MRA mindset
NWOSlave is actually, well, sort of… not right, exactly, but I have been meaning to ask this question. If many feminists are going to decry slut-shaming as we do then how are we going to make such, frankly, lazy statements in response to cries of creep-shaming?
Because being slutty is harmless, and being creepy sucks.
And again, when I say “creepy” I don’t mean