Oh, Reddit, where the demographics are so skewed that virtually every discussion amongst and/or about women ultimately gets taken over by dudes doing the old “what about the dudes” routine. It’s no secret that the TwoXChromosomes subreddit has long been overrun with MRAs and FeMRAs. And now it’s become pretty clear that the Feminism subreddit has gone MRA as well.
If you want all the details of the drama, here’s a thread in the subreddit in which the feminists who’ve stuck with the subreddit take on the MRAs and MRA-symps amongst the mods.
Check out the Feminisms and SRSWomen subreddits if you want to discuss feministy stuff on Reddit without having to deal with endless derailing from MRAs and other shitlords.
EDITED TO ADD: More links:
SRS takes on the whole mess (lots of useful links).
SRS links to r/feminism mods defending MRAs
An r/feminism thread about the recent Captain Awkward posts about creeps that is, naturally, full of endless hang-wringing about the evils of “creep-shaming.”
(Thanks, Cliff, for the links.)
C, if they haven’t said they find them offensive then I’m happy. Actually I think they are better alternatives because they highlight the different aspects of behaviour that are making the person uncomfortable.
Pear_tree – I’m uncomfortable with the idea that people who are feeling threatened by someone else are required to explain that threat in only the most polite and helpful ways.
When I say “dude is creepy,” it’s not always because I have his best interests at heart and want to help him learn and grow. I may just want him to keep his creepery the hell away from me and mine.
I have a really close friend who has Aspergers and one of the things that we have both learned is that what makes our friendship work the best is when we are overtly clear and direct with one another. To some extent, this is why we hit it off in the first place. I hate being ambiguous in my words and actions because that is how my mom perpetuated her abuse on me. So when I met him, I actually was relieved that both of us preferred a direct and open dialogue because even though I do not have a spectrum disorder, my preferred method of communication is very open mainly because most of the creeps and abusers use unclear situations and language to their advantage- in essence, constructing “plausible deniability” even though you know exactly what they are doing and feel rightly creeped out.
The dude who went down in my memory as Mr. Creepy (I mentioned this on the other thread–he was in my Spanish class and harassed me the whole year, including stealing my homework when my back was turned so I would have to deal with him) was in no way socially awkward and/or a person with Aspergers. He was a class clown, and all the boys thought he was great and the girls thought he was creepy as all fuck. I’m a hell of a lot more socially awkward than he was, which just made it hard for me to deal with his behaviors.
Pear_tree–I think “creepy” is a good word for the intrusive behaviors that Mr. Creepy did because it does have bite and they hate it, and most of the creepers in the sexualized, female-targeting style that Captain Awkward was talking about know what they are doing. Fighting back on using “creeper” for them just means denying people, usually women, the right to label their own experiences and decide what they will and will not put up with.
Best of luck to ya. But keep in mind that there are NO guarantees. Some people in that residence may find you creepy or “weird” and not wish to associate with you so that’s something you’ll have to learn to cope with.
“Creepy” is very much a subjective term rather than an objective one as those who define it always have their own personal definition. If you have abnormal neurological ticks like I do, there’s always going to be someone who finds you creepy no matter where you go and what you do.
Lastly, I choose not to have the slightest bit of sympathy for those women who label any guy they don’t like or find unattractive as “creepy”. You don’t have to like everbody, but you do have to learn to get along with people whom you are repulsed by and who even make you a little uncomfortable.
Yeah, pear_tree, I’m going to disagree. If a guy is upset at being called creepy, perhaps he should look at the behavior that caused him to be called that. Most creepers know exactly what they’re up to.
That’s understandable. “C**t” is used differently in the UK and the US.
AD&D had a whole boxed set in the 90s that was written in a faux-Cockney kind of argot. The term “berk” was thrown about with abandon, as a term for “adventurer” (“cutter” was another, more violent one). The problem with “berk” is that it’s short for “Berkeley hunt,” rhyming slang for that word I done used up there.
Trying to cut down on those words, I can understand and support. I’m less convinced when it comes to words and phrases with murkier histories (there aren’t many, but they are there).
There are some web sites out there where the commentariat have taken it upon themselves to excise language that might be stepping on someone’s foot, or otherwise problematical.
The textbook example is the phrase “rule of thumb.” There are a couple of different origin stories for the phrase. One of those is that it summarizes the quick-and-dirty shortcuts experienced carpenters can use — measuring short distances with one’s thumb, from the tip to the first joint.
The other one is that it was once English law that a man could beat his wife with a rod no thicker than his thumb.
Now, that’s a disturbing story, and there is some documentary evidence for this idea, largely resting on a judgment which doesn’t seem to have been preserved. By no means do I want to erase the history of domestic violence, but I don’t think it’s quite fair to excise the phrase and never use it based on a story that could well not be true. The phrase “rule of thumb” has an origin that’s so murky that I don’t think it should be an instant black mark if someone should use it.
It’s like language should be like Caesar’s wife — beyond even the thought of reproach. If someone could find a problematical etymology, that’s it, don’t want people thinking we’re assholes, we’ll just stop using this language.
But don’t let me tell you what to do. I’m just explaining my thinking, not trying to dictate.
Certainly I’m not going to stop using “creepy” because some people who have a really odd view of the world are looking for words to fight against in imitation of a much older, much more successful civil rights movement.
@Pear_tree: If I find it offensive to be called “racist”, does that mean that I can say racist shit and it would be wrong to call me racist?
We might be more inclined to believe you when you say you’re on the spectrum, Toaster, if you weren’t so much of a lying douchebag the rest of the time.
@ Monsieur Sans Nom
Oh I’m well aware of this, The way I see it is that it’s best to not let it get to me, most of the people I’ve talked to who used to find me creepy only thought that way because I’m tall, have a large frame, and keep to myself. Usually when people get to know me the creepiness factor goes away, what I’m really focused on is opening up to people and being less anxious around them.
Nope! I have to get along with those people sometimes for school/work/family purposes, but I do not have to get along with them just for the sake of getting along with someone!
In social situations, I can ignore anyone I like for any reason I like! Even bad wrong reasons! Even no good reason at all! This is called being an independent human being!
People don’t have to like people.
THE MORE YOU KNOW.
Nope! Men can say what they want in forums that are either public property or their own property! You don’t own Manboobz’s servers or Reddit’s, so the owners of those servers are free to decide what gets hosted there!
This is splitting a pretty small hair, NWO. “I don’t hate you because you’re a woman! I hate you because you’re a woman and women are terrible!”
If both parties are drunk, but one party initiates sex and the other doesn’t, then no, it is not exactly the same on both sides. Initiating sex is something a person (even drunk) chose to do. “Having someone else initiate sex” is obviously not a choice.
Actually, both of their feelings are correct! The woman feels afraid, and this is real–the man feels not afraid, and this is real!
No one is asking the man to feel afraid. We are only asking that he not demand the woman pretend she isn’t afraid.
We probably all read this here as I learned about it from this site, but relinking that Jezebel article about why dudes don’t like being called creepy: http://jezebel.com/5903883/why-guys-really-hate-being-called-creepy
So, aside from a bunch of stuff about body language that I have been physically incapable of memorizing. When I have good intentions, and am trying to not be a creep, how do I actually not be a creep?
@Cliff- *high five* (if wanted, that is).
Of course NWO listening to reason and logic is about as probable as a pumpkin turning into a carriage.
@MSN, there’s no guarantee anywhere that anyone will ever find anyone ‘not creepy.’ Or ‘nice.’ Or ‘hot’ or ANYTHING because those are subjective opinions based on the feeling of the person holding those opinions and guess what we are all entitled to our own feelings ta daaaaa what is this like, 2nd grade?
I’m trying to imagine the shitstorm that would ensue if feminists suddenly took over r/mensrights.
The MRAs would be screaming about how the feminists are trying to suppress their voices
Paul Elam would be writing another hate-filled diatribe about how feminists need to suffer pain but totally not in a violent way you guys!
@ aworldanonamous–I can’t promise you that you’ll never creep someone out, but the first thing I’d tell you is to be careful about other people’s personal space and not get to close to them. If you don’t feel comfortable reading signals that tell you to get closer, don’t get closer. Also, if you can, pay attention to any situations where you might be blocking someone’s way out. The creepiest goddamn thing my harasser would do is lean over me while I cowered at my desk. Other women might have other triggers, but that’s mine.
Also, don’t make gross sexualized comments, but I doubt that was your problem. If you can’t read situations well, don’t talk about sex unless the other person starts it.
I don’t expect people to value my opinions because I’m a woman. I expect them to value and respect me because I am a human being with intelligence, not a walking vagina warmer.
The only people who think they’re “ridiculing” me are misogynistic asshats like you on the internet. I am well liked and respected in real life, something you probably know nothing about, judging by your miserable nature.
@WordSpinner
I think my biggest issue is that my ability to pick up on nonverbal cues is somewhat impaired, and I’m terrified about the idea that I might be making someone else feel uncomfortable unknowingly, which leads to the somewhat heavy anxiety problems I have. I really never mean any harm, but it’s hard for me to convey that when I am literally completely blind to what the other person is thinking. I guess the best I can do is try not to push boundaries while I’m getting to know people, and as I become more familiar with them, explain my disorder and the fact that I need time to become accustomed to a particular person’s set of quirks, and/or the fact that sometimes I need people to overtly state if I’m making them feel uncomfortable.
@ aworldanonymous- That sounds like a peachy solution! There have got to be aspergers support forums out there- why not hit them up for advice? But, ya know, don’t sweat it too much. Everyone fucks up social encounters, even those of us who pick up on non-verbal cues, so it isn’t the end of your social universe if a few people misunderstand you or just don’t like you. Learn from it as best you can, but don’t dwell, and move on to the next person who might get along with you just fine.
I guess I’ll stick with that then, thanks.
aworldanonymous–yeah, I can understand that. I have some similar problems, but I worry about coming across as annoying (I’m five feet tall and female. I’d have to work at it to come across as threatening). I’d say that you can probably do it. But I think you’re probably doing the best you can. Also, if you read the Captain Awkward letters you’ll see what kinds of behaviors get you labelled as the creeper in the group, and they actually aren’t socially awkward behaviors. Socially awkward != sexual assault and demands that women take their tops off.
I will say this–most of the guys who freaked me out the most were actually very socially competent and knew exactly what they were doing, and could get away with it because they knew to skirt the line of acceptable behaviors. Oh, sure, they fake obliviousness, but only when they’re talking to women. If you are completely oblivious when talking to guys too, you’re more likely to get slotted in as socially awkward and not creepy (which for most women implies predatory.)