So apparently I’m way off base with this “misogyny” thing. For example, I have been under the impression that I have been finding misogynistic stuff in the Men’s Rights subreddit, like, all the time. With upvotes, and everything. But evidently I’m wrong.
Because now ignatiusloyola, one of the subreddit mods, has done a very scientific study that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that, well, whatever misogyny is there is officially not a big damn deal.
Ig explains his protocol:
I did a quick scan of the first 400 comments on the list (100/page, 4 pages in). I scanned for words like “cunt” and “whore”, and read the context of these. I looked for the words “woman” and “women”, and read the context of these. I looked for “suffrage” and “vote” also.
I found two comments that used the word “cunt”, one of them was used to describe men, the other to describe a specific woman. The only instances of “whore” were “attention whore”.
There were two comments involving the word “woman” that generalized women with negative stereotypes.
“Suffrage” and “vote” instances did not involve any context that suggested that women did not deserve the right to vote.
How a person defines “hatred of women”, either loosely (suggestive from context, rather than explicit) or strictly (explicit statements), it is pretty clear that out of 400 comments, very few are misogynistic.
Does misogyny exist? Yes. But it does not seem to be a significant contribution to r/MensRights. At best, people are seeing a few comments and focusing on their existence while ignoring the rest.
It’s a lot like that time Michael Richards did that standup routine, and everyone focused on that one word he said, totally ignoring all the other words he used that were totally not racist slurs. I mean, yeah, he said that word a bunch of times, but it still made up a very small percentage of all the words he used that evening.
So that’s that, then. Misogyny, officially not a problem!
Or that would have been that, had Ig not actually posted about his experiment to the subreddit he had just proved was, like, totally non-misogynistic:
Because it turned out that a couple of the fellas had an issue with Ig’s methodology. In particular, that stuff about female suffrage. Because, apparently, you can totally be against women having the right to vote and still not be a misogynist. As zyk0s put it (garnering upvotes in the process):
[T]here’s the matter of female suffrage. I really don’t see how suggesting women should not have been granted the right to vote is misogyny. It might be motivated by it, but not necessarily so, and treating it as such is akin to criminalizing holocaust denial: it’s censorship, pure and simple, and if [1] /r/MR wants to keep calling itself an open space where ideas are not silenced, that attitude has to change.
Our friend Demonspawn went even further(and got a few upvotes himself):
Suggesting that the government works better without the women’s vote is not misogyny. It’s an analysis of the facts and the consequences of allowing women’s suffrage.
Suggesting that women retain the right to vote without the corresponding responsibilities that men face is misandry.
So there you have it. The Men’s Rights subreddit doesn’t have a misogyny problem; if anything, it’s a hotbed of misandry.
I mean, Tom darling, wh*re isn’t an insult to me. Sex workers are people who work a hard job, one that I might not be able to do. I support sex worker rights and self-determination, and am very against using slurs against them.
First – thank you so much to all for the welcome!!!
Second – to be clear – I am very much in favor of women’s right to vote.
Third – I have a question for Tom. I was reading all your posts about child prostitution, and am very against your opinions, btw, but interested in how you’d work out the practicalities. For example, it is required in many countries that the police be completely sure that the suspect understands their rights. For example, in this recent news – http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2012/August/Authorities-Unravel-Horrific-Child-Porn-Ring/ where one of the kids you would have arrested was only 19 days old – how would the cops be able to know for certain that he/she understands their rights to legal counsel? Ok, there certainly wouldn’t be any problem with the “you don’t have to talk” issue, but are you perhaps starting to see a problem here?
I work with a great many Army Wives, and even though some don’t work, the ones that volunteer do extraordinary things for soldiers and their families, things that would never get done if we had to wait for a paid person to come along and do it. So think of it that way. When a family’s house burned down, the next day they had a new house with trucks full of donated furniture and clothing backing up into the driveway. Volunteers collected the donations and set up the house so they could move in the next day. Volunteers drove the trucks around town picking up donated goods and dropping them off. You can’t put a price on that.
So fembot, why can’t you get a job now?
You’re story sounds a little bit like one I heard today from a couple who got chatting to me about my next film on gold digging. The woman was doing all the talking, about how she’s always hated gold diggers, and has two jobs etc, and I was nodding away politely, and she opens her wallet and its full of paper money, and she’s giving it the big “independent woman” speech, and “we’ve always had separate bank accounts” then her boyfriend chimes in saying something about her steeling money out of his wallet on a regular basis!
I don’t think many women who give it the big equality speech would be able to put up with an audit of the actual financial facts. We’re too chivalrous to correct them, just agreeing and placating as they make claims about how unwhorish they are, but usually, on closer inspection, they’ve had an engagement ring off him, or he paid for more of the house, or he pays for the car, or he paid for the dates, and so on.
Or “He works, then I work” means “he works full-time and over-time, while I dabble at part-time” and so on.
Even if fembot does earn as much as her hubby, she should be doing more of the military service, because statistically, she can earn the same money without being put in harm’s way, compared to him.
I have the sneaking suspicion that when Tom calls people wh*res, he actually means “women who participates in the network of mutual obligation and assistance that forms any human society” and just uses that vile slur because he’s mad that women are a part of his society at all.
Also, @fembot, all of the military spouses I know do freaking awesome things. Y’all deserve some serious respect.
This one’s for MSN.
Rahu: 19 days old? Holy shit. Just when I thought I couldn’t hate the human race anymore… D:<
Women are all golddiggers? Man, it’s almost as if I *hallucinated* the time I gave my boyfriend a present two weeks after Christmas so he wouldn’t feel obligated to give me one back.* Of course, judging from MRAs’ philosophy, I’m hallucinating my entire dating life.
*I hate receiving presents and enjoy giving them; he’s vice versa.
@Tom- My mother runs her household’s finances, and has for years. My father regularly asks her for cash, because he’s an artsy type who never remembers to run to the bank. Both of them work two (or more) paid jobs, and pool their accounts. Who is the wh*re?
Katz – yup. 19 days.
Also, please explain to me why unpaid labor is less valuable inherently than paid labor.
No, it means I will teach full time while he goes to school. There is no part time job for me.
But basically I don’t work right now because I don’t want to and I don’t need to. End of story. You would call that a wh*re, I call that fortunate. Yes, my husband bought me an engagement ring. I’ve never bought him anything of value. But if you asked him, I think he would say that he is more than satisfied with our arrangement. He comes home to a clean house and a warm meal. We are very happy and affectionate, and almost never argue. And like I said, I do volunteer work, even though it is only part time, and I don’t get paid for it. But it is work.
And has it occured to you that some men don’t want their wives to work? My father never let my mother get a job, even though she wanted to. I’m not saying it’s right, but it happens.
Huh? That doesn’t even make sense. And even if I wanted to join the Army, and my husband agreed to it (he never would) I couldn’t do my husband’s job because he is in combat, and women aren’t allowed in combat.
My favorite part of Tom Martin is watching him crow victory, tbh. It’s fucking beautiful.
See, this is the neat bit- a groan inducing anecdote about taking money from your partner’s wallet in a relationship where finances are shared and household expenses benefit both partners becomes proof positive for Tom that women are always taking money for men, even when they’re not. See, your claims are extremely poorly evidenced, Tom, and pretty much textbook examples of confirmation bias.
@ozy
I love giving gifts, too. I always buy tons of rewards and stuff for my class when I’m teaching. Unfortunately, my husband doesn’t like to receive gifts, and he’s always awkward about it 🙁 I’ve learned to just give him a card and cook him dinner.
@ Rutee- the crowing in victory hasn’t happened yet that I can see- maybe there’s a vestigial inkling of self awareness that somehow got activated today. Perhaps it’s the weather.
Fembot, you’re a hore. Next!
@Tom
I know. I just don’t care.
MDubz, you are, for pretending you don’t know what a whwar is.
I will never renounce prostitution in all its forms! Never! Never I tell you! AAAARRRRRRHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
Ignorance of prostitution makes you a…prostitute? LOL
The creative spelling in attempts to get around moderation reminded me of something, and now I have a perfect song to share.
Fembot,
Your first step, on the road to renouncing prostitution, and becoming a really interesting person with the potential to really make the world a better place, is acknowledging you are a prostitute. You’ve done it!
The next phase, is to decide how you would like to make the world a better place. What are you going to invent?
What do we need, that no one else has thought of, that you would like to try and develop?
Nah, fembot, a vagina makes you a prostitute. because Tom likes to imagine that there is some financial transaction that might one day allow him access to your vagina. Never mind the mutual love and respect you might have for your romantic partners- if you are a dime in their debt that dime could be transferred to Tom’s ledger!
This is basically witch hunt logic. Can’t say I’m shocked.