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Here’s the video of the Al Jazeera English show featuring Helen Lewis and Rebecca Watson, among others, and me.

It’s  pretty good show. Most of the discussion involves social media researcher and Fordham professor Alice Marwick and Helen Lewis of the New Statesman. Those of us in the Google+ Hangout pop in briefly with comments and questions.

FWIW, I appear only briefly in the show proper, but I have a somewhat longer (and a bit more coherent) comment in the ten minute “online only” portion that immediately follows the show (and which is also on this video).

It was a somewhat strange, if educational, experience, my first appearance on TV. (The next time I get webcammed into a show, I won’t reflexively look down at the laptop while talking.) It all went by really, really quickly. Weirdly frantic behind the scenes as the producer tried to slot us all in.

The comments on the video on YouTube nicely  illustrate the problem we were discussing; that is, they are a rancid pile of misogynistic shitlordery.

My favorite comment is this one from Urhoboman5 about Rebecca Watson:

At 5;30 that chick has a youtube channel. Just type in rebecca feminist and you’ll find it. Interesting how most of her videos are voted down. Sometimes as much as 80% negative because the stuff she says is pure nonsense.

That’s right. He actually thinks that the fact that her videos are targeted by downvote squads proves that she’s wrong to talk about harassment. She’s harassed by dudes who don’t like her talking about harassment so therefore it’s “nonsense” for her to talk about harassment. Brilliant.

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indifferentsky
8 years ago

@Ugh – Fuck off ! You LYING RACIST BIGOT! MORON!

@Ugh – Also: you SMUG, SELF-SATISFIED, SELF-RIGHTEOUS LYING WANKER!
You just tried to equate an entire human rights movement with rape. You are a LYING BIGOTTED FUCKWIT!

lolocopter.
XD XD

ShadetheDruid
ShadetheDruid
8 years ago

I’m worried that Joe is going to teach Steele about the caps lock key, and suddenly he’ll start capitalise his repetitive words too. D:

ShadetheDruid
ShadetheDruid
8 years ago

capitalising*

CrazyLadyBlues
CrazyLadyBlues
8 years ago

@ The First Joe: calling MRA’s rape apologists is pretty accurate, examples which spring to mind include Tom Martin & his recent outpourings regarding child prostitution.

Although can people be called rape apologists if, as the MRM seem to, they deny that rape actually happens?

indifferentsky
8 years ago

Does any major MRM blog right about death of gay people at the hands of bigots?

indifferentsky
8 years ago

*write

man, I’m tired.

ShadetheDruid
ShadetheDruid
8 years ago

I think MRAs have a wide range of views on rape, from outright denial to calling it some sort of comeuppance (or even “equality”).

Though as I see it, whether you call it “rape denial” or “rape apologism”, the end result is basically the same.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

@Ruby

Also, fun fact: Sierra Leone was the first country in the world where women were allowed to vote (well, free, propertied women), and were about 1/3 of the franchise from 1792 onwards. When Britain asserted direct control in 1890, they abolished women’s suffrage.

Britian also removed municipal voting rights and property rights for women in Southern Nigeria,

And yet, in the whole Greece Magna Carta Lincolnn Suffrage MLK history of democracy, we rarely mention that West Africa was the world’s earliest adopter. Funny how that works, huh?

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

Women’s suffrage was among one of the first acts of Sierra Leone’s government AFTER they became independent from the oh-so-freedom-loving West.

scrapemind
8 years ago

Exporting oppression overseas is not the same thing as ending oppression. There are feminists in every country in the world, many of whom are persecuted by governments supported by the West.

What a coincidence that there are feminists in every country in the world! No, wait, feminism is also a Western export.

BigMomma
BigMomma
8 years ago

@ugh, thumbs up, like for that little piece of history

Rutee Katreya
8 years ago

Yeah, it’s apologism to say “Although it’d be really bad if people committed rape, everyone knows rape doesn’t happen”

And no, the MRM isn’t a human rights movement, it’s just a small group of reactionary assholes. There’s a reason we compare it to Stormfront XD

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

What a coincidence that there are feminists in every country in the world! No, wait, feminism is also a Western export.

Read my above posts. Women’s suffrage was invented in West Africa, and only later adopted by the rest of the world.

Also, you know, a lot of early feminists were South American, which most people don’t consider the West, and women’s rights movements began in China and Japan unrelated to Western movements.

Some very early Western women activists praised and were inspired by the Ottoman Empire for having strong female property rights.

Freedom is not a Western invention, and it is more common in Western countries because for the last two hundred years Western countries have been denying freedom in a big chunk of the rest of the world.

Shiraz
Shiraz
8 years ago

Wow. Thread still derailed. Congrats Joe.
Errr, since you’re into baseless accusations based on straw….would you mind if I accused you of being the Loch Ness Monster? No? OK then, Nessie. Stay away from those caps, and have yourself a swim.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

Early feminists were also impressed that Islamic law permitted unhappy women to divorce their husbands, a legal right not granted in the United States until 1973.

Falconer
Falconer
8 years ago

@Falconer – here in the UK by BIGOTED RACIST DEFINITION the only official hate crimes are those committed by white people.

Says you. Cite a law, or it didn’t happen. Over here in the US, hate crime laws allow additional penalties if it can be shown that the crime was motivated or had something to do with the victim’s belonging to one or more of a group of protected categories. I’m not about to take what you say about UK law at face value.

Cite your claims, or people will call bullshit.

And I get that you’re all concerned about gay bashing. The thing is, you keep going on about Muslim gay bashers, when you admit that groups other than Muslims bash gays. That (and the Mu5lim thing, which I’ve noticed you’ve kind of dropped) makes you look bigoted.

@Anathema and Falconer – Once again, fuck off with your “codes” and “dog whistles” bullshit. The WHITE THUGS who murdered Steven Lawrence are thugs, because they committed an act of violent thuggery. The THUGS who tried to kill Olly Hemsley and left him PARALYSED are thugs too. It’s not fucking rocket science you RACIST BIGOT. THUGS are DEFINED by their BEHAVIOUR, which is VIOLENT. That’s all there is too it, you ignorant BIGOT.

But words can be tainted by being misused. And “thug” has been tainted by being used to refer to inner-city black men, in the context of urban crime, and also to tar black men with urban crime. I’m sorry that it means different things to different people, but the fact remains that it does, and you can’t just blithely use it and expect people to understand what you mean when they’ve got a different context for a word.

Intent. Is it fucking magic?

… And does anyone have a Kleenex? Joe’s been gumming my ankle, and it’s kind of … slimy.

Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
8 years ago

@ JoJo the Dogfaced Boy: “I wasn’t “doing a victory dance” or “co-opting” anything you utter fuckwit! People kept nit-picking and I gave you PROOF,”

Of what? That some homophobes are Muslim? No one has denied that! No one! I can’t speak for everyone, but the reason I don’t single Muslims out over homophobia or misogyny is that a) it does a huge disservice to those brave people in the Muslim community who fight these things and b) it allows smug bigoted arseholes to ignore these problems by pointing to the Muslim world and saying “hey, it’s worse over there”, Like, uh, you’re doing now.

As for the “victory dance” and “co-opting”? Totally stand by both of those things, you ghastly little tick.

Plex Flexico
Plex Flexico
8 years ago

Ya know what? It’s pretty damn fun to watch Joe have a total meltdown.

**reaches into the bowl for some more popcorn**

Kinda feel like little Alia in the Dune series when she’s in the Palace on Arakis, being held captive by the Emperor and facing the Baron Harkkonen.

“Make him afraid some more”, she says with a wicked little grin.

pecunium
8 years ago

From what I can see of Joe’s “argument”, it’s all about guilt by association.

1: Some Muslims attack people.
2: Some of us don’t actively condemn all Muslims
2a: Some of us say that attacking all Muslims for the actions of a few is bigotted, and the selection of dark-skinned/Middle Eastern Muslims shows signs of racism

3: We are therefore in agreement with the Muslims who attack people.
3a: We therefore also hate the people whom those, “bad” Muslims attack.

4: Since those Muslims are racist (Joe has declared it, so it must be so), we too are racists.

It’s all bunk of course, and hinges on the racist undertones of Joe’s singling out a subset of “The Muslims” as being inherently bad.

Coupled to the odd parity of his thesis, and the racist groups who share that view and his dogwhistles, I’d be willing to bet he’s a racists too.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

@pecunium

Let’s be realistic here, the logic behind all of Joe’s arguments is “whatever the fuck I read on infowars today MUST BE TRUE.”

scrapemind
8 years ago

Intent. Is it fucking magic?

I guess it’s an ad hominem, but whenever I see this phrase, I think of the phrase “non-incest privilege.” I got the impression that Kinsey Hope/Genderbitch coined both phrases. Can it be true?

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

@scrapemind

Are you arguing that intent, is, in fact, magic?

Or or you just trying to scrape the barrel for anything that can’t be immediately shown to be completely wrong?

Plex Flexico
Plex Flexico
8 years ago

Well, I know the “Intent, it’s fucking MAGIC!” is from Genderbitch because frankly I love that phrase. …and if you had any google-fu at all you’d know that non-incest privilege is also theirs.

Google. It is your friend. Learn it, love it, take it into your heart and embrace it.

howardbann1ster
howardbann1ster
8 years ago

… I can’t tell if scrapemind really is trying to ad hominem the phrase, i.e., so and so coined it, so you’re wrong when you say it.

But it takes two fairly well known memes–magic, how does it fucking work? Intent, it’s not fucking magic–and mashes them together. And I’m pretty sure it wasn’t, in fact, coined by Kinsey Hope.

And scrapemind is pretty much the last person I would trust to be honestly saying that Kinsey Hope said something awful, so I wouldn’t trust any kind of ad hominem from the dude anyway.

…in conclusion. Words. How do they fucking work? Do they mean things? Scrapemind ain’t sure.

Plex Flexico
Plex Flexico
8 years ago

Whoops… the “@scrapemind” somehow didn’t make it into the magic type-y box.

Perhaps it’s from working doubles every day for the last 26 days without a single day off.

Nah, couldn’t be that.

howardbann1ster
howardbann1ster
8 years ago

@Plex Flexico: I’m frankly surprised that scrapemind was right about any details in there. Huh.

Plex Flexico
Plex Flexico
8 years ago

Honestly, so was I. As “they” say, though: Even a stopped clock is right at at least twice a day! (Three times when the clocks change.)

Falconer
Falconer
8 years ago

I guess it’s an ad hominem, but whenever I see this phrase, I think of the phrase “non-incest privilege.” I got the impression that Kinsey Hope/Genderbitch coined both phrases. Can it be true?

I have a few problems with “intent is not magic,” but they have to do with erasing the author and taking post-modern critique too far. I certainly concede that if I act the privileged asshole on the Internet, and manage to fling an elbow into a marginalized person’s eye (metaphorically), it’s no defense to me to say I didn’t mean to hurt anybody.

And if Mojo Jojo up there says “thugs!” it’s no defense to say “but I meant white ones!”

scrapemind
8 years ago

I googled “intent is fucking magnets” and got no results.

I’ve seen this “fucking magic” phrase a lot and had trouble believing that Genderbitch really coined it.

blitzgal
8 years ago

Rutee, what is your new picture? It looks like a doll but I don’t recognize it.

howardbann1ster
howardbann1ster
8 years ago

scrapemind, start with ‘magnets, how do they work.’

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/fcking-magnets-how-do-they-work

Work backwards and forwards from them.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

@scrape

It’s possible. It’s also a statement of common fucking sense. Again, do you believe that whoever coined it was incorrect, and intent is actually magic?

pecunium
8 years ago

I’m with Falconer on the way “intent is not magic” works, and it’s much the same problem. There are cases where intent matters; it doesn’t change that elbows can be sharp, and that hurt should be dealt with, but taken to it’s not-so logical extreme it does erase the author, and makes communication difficult.

What someone means to say does have effect on what is said; and that intent isn’t always irrelevant to the subject.

Falconer
Falconer
8 years ago

I googled “intent is fucking magnets” and got no results.

I’m hardly surprised, seeing as that isn’t quite the phrase.

(Who uses “intent is fucking magnets”?)

Try “intent is fucking magic.”

And I got the phrase from Shakesville, myself.

pecunium
8 years ago

srapemind: That’s because you have not an honest bone in your body, nor any honest intent.

For you, because of what I have seen from you, there is no good intent. You want to play, “lets you and them fight,” by tossing out little bombs in the hope that people will pick them up, and the tear into each other when they explode.

Falconer
Falconer
8 years ago

@pecunium — Oh thank all the gods in all the heavens everywhere, I’m glad it’s not just me.

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

Rutee!!! You’ve depokemoned!!!!

scrapemind
8 years ago

(Who uses “intent is fucking magnets”?)

A mash-up of Insane Clown Posse and a social justice blogger.

Falconer
Falconer
8 years ago

I mean, it just seems unfair to say that what matters is what the reader brings to a text, and then hold the author responsible for what the reader finds there, in all cases.

Allowing, of course, for readers to get exactly what the author meant to put there.

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

Re: “Intent, it’s not magic”

I think it’s accurate in what it conveys, though it’s not always used properly. The phrase itself doesn’t erase the importance of intent IMO, just points out that good intentions aren’t always enough. While I do take Falconer’s and pecunium’s point, like pecunium said, it’s the “not so logical extreme” that becomes problematic, and I think that usually comes from a point of disingenuity.

Falconer
Falconer
8 years ago

A mash-up of Insane Clown Posse and a social justice blogger.

Ah, so you do recognize the magnets line.

So, why were you attempting to Google a nonsense phrase as though it were a bombshell argument citation, again?

pecunium
8 years ago

Falconer: Because communication isn’t scrape’s goal.

howardbann1ster
howardbann1ster
8 years ago

@Falconer: Yeah, the real core of the ‘intent is not magic’ meme is that at the end of the day–well, Hershele Ostropoler put it best.

If you step on my foot, you need to get off my foot.

If you step on my foot without meaning to, you need to get off my foot.

If you step on my foot without realizing it, you need to get off my foot.

If everyone in your culture steps on feet, your culture is horrible, and you need to get off my foot.

If you have foot-stepping disease, and it makes you unaware you’re stepping on feet, you need to get off my foot. If an event has rules designed to keep people from stepping on feet, you need to follow them. If you think that even with the rules, you won’t be able to avoid stepping on people’s feet, absent yourself from the event until you work something out.

If you’re a serial foot-stepper, and you feel you’re entitled to step on people’s feet because you’re just that awesome and they’re not really people anyway, you’re a bad person and you don’t get to use any of those excuses, limited as they are. And moreover, you need to get off my foot.

howardbann1ster
howardbann1ster
8 years ago

Also, notice how scrapemind is going around and around the phrase to avoid the meat of it. Fairly disingenuous, that.

Falconer
Falconer
8 years ago

@howardbann1ster: Ah. Okay, I’ll disengage and go shower. I hope at least I made the pig happy.

If an event has rules designed to keep people from stepping on feet, you need to follow them.

And now I’m thinking of thunderf00t and his insistence that publishing rules about how you’re not allowed to step on feet at cons will make people think your con has a lot of foot-stepping, and then they won’t show up.

Far better to not have explicit rules about foot-stepping, and then complain when you get called on it, and when you get kicked out of the community you joined just to attack over foot-stepping rules, hack back into their private listserv and start leaking personal information, while denying that you believe in leaking personal information as a tactic.

I mean Jesus foot-stepping Christ, I’m sorry I ever watched any of his videos, now, no matter how much of a smug prick Kent Hovind is.

Gametime
Gametime
8 years ago

“RACIST HOMOPHOBIC BIGOT” is totes the new “vile.” Maybe Joe and Steele can get together and teach one another some new words! Y’know, assuming all the misandry and anti-white racism they face didn’t destroy their ability to communicate ideas.

Ithiliana
8 years ago

@Dear Asshole Joe:

racialized language being applied to religious groups is a Real Thing.

Studied. Analyzed. Discussed.

It exists.

Ur doing it.

The remedial version about racialized language: “race” is a social construct: that doesn’t mean it’s not “real” it means that it’s socially constructed through language. (There is no scientific support for the claim that there is a racial hierarchy with the white race being on top. Actual science shows there is a greater disparity, genetically, between all members of a single “race” than between random individuals of two different races–i.e. there are genetic differences, but they don’t prove the racist bullshit created over the past few centuries in the colonial industrialized nations).

Racism is a massive part of US and UK culture (differently realized). As a white person raised in a racist culture, I am a racist–but I am working (actively) to unpack my racist attitudes. It is quite possible for mixed race people to be bigots (in this approach, racism is tied to institutionalized power and is independent of individual ‘feelings”); it is possible for people in one marginalized ethnic/racial group to be bigots against other marginalized groups.

And your anti-Islam rants fit the textbook definition of racialized language applied to a stigmatized religious group.

So suck on your socks and STFU, ok?

katz
8 years ago

Oh, and Western culture is also superior because we make things like automobiles, computers, smart phones, and atom smashers. Heck, we can put people on the moon. We just put a rover on Mars. We’ve got a space station.

Believes in the superiority of Western culture + supports prison rape = really, really hates brown people, according to my calculations.

But wow, once you get Ruby on one train of thought, you absolutely can’t get her off. We should call her Ruby on Rails.

pecunium
8 years ago

Damn… Joe is moderated. I guess I will miss out on being a RACIST BIGOTED MORONN!!!! ELEVENTY!!!!!

My life will never be complete.

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