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Here’s the video of the Al Jazeera English show featuring Helen Lewis and Rebecca Watson, among others, and me.

It’s  pretty good show. Most of the discussion involves social media researcher and Fordham professor Alice Marwick and Helen Lewis of the New Statesman. Those of us in the Google+ Hangout pop in briefly with comments and questions.

FWIW, I appear only briefly in the show proper, but I have a somewhat longer (and a bit more coherent) comment in the ten minute “online only” portion that immediately follows the show (and which is also on this video).

It was a somewhat strange, if educational, experience, my first appearance on TV. (The next time I get webcammed into a show, I won’t reflexively look down at the laptop while talking.) It all went by really, really quickly. Weirdly frantic behind the scenes as the producer tried to slot us all in.

The comments on the video on YouTube nicely  illustrate the problem we were discussing; that is, they are a rancid pile of misogynistic shitlordery.

My favorite comment is this one from Urhoboman5 about Rebecca Watson:

At 5;30 that chick has a youtube channel. Just type in rebecca feminist and you’ll find it. Interesting how most of her videos are voted down. Sometimes as much as 80% negative because the stuff she says is pure nonsense.

That’s right. He actually thinks that the fact that her videos are targeted by downvote squads proves that she’s wrong to talk about harassment. She’s harassed by dudes who don’t like her talking about harassment so therefore it’s “nonsense” for her to talk about harassment. Brilliant.

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Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

Y’all do have it going on there, can’t deny that 😛

scrapemind
8 years ago

Ruby says:

I was just referring to our Western ideals of, “live and let live.” I hope it spreads throughout the entire world.

Cliff says:

[Bill Maher’s] “nope, Western civilization is just better” is holy shit Stormfront.

Stormfronters believe that white civilization is superior and that people of color lack the temperament and perhaps the intelligence to adopt it. Progressive utopian human rights imperialists like Ruby and Bill Maher believe that secular humanist Enlightenment can and should be adopted universally, and the whole world will live as one.

katz
8 years ago

Ye gods, Maher has always been an asshat, but I haven’t seen this jingoistic side before. I’m glad everyone else hates him too, because I used to be concerned it was just me.

It’s a good illustration of how, once you’ve declared that you belong to a demographic that’s superior to everyone else, it’s easy to start declaring other demographics you belong to as also superior.

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

Pronouncing “white” as “Western” doesn’t fool anyone, scrapemind.

katz
8 years ago

Progressive utopian human rights imperialists like Ruby and Bill Maher believe that secular humanist Enlightenment can and should be adopted universally, and the whole world will live as one.

Step 1: Eliminate all dissenting opinions.

Step 2: Join hands and sing John Lennon songs.

Sharculese
8 years ago

yeah, in addition to thinking women are basically animals, maher loathes muslims, because it makes him feel better about his knee-jerk support for israel

also there’s his anti-science shit, and the fact that he isn’t actually funny

but mostly it cracks me up that ‘i am too a feminist’ ruby is going to bill maher for support

Anathema
Anathema
8 years ago

It’s also that Maher seems to be working from a very weird idea of “Western culture.” For one thing, I’m not sure that much of what he mentions is actually unique to Western culture. In fact, I’m pretty sure that things like the rule of law aren’t unique to Western culture at all. I’m pretty sure that there are lots of different cultures that have come to that idea independently. So how come it only counts as a product of Western culture?

The cherry-picking is just painful. I mean, if you take the very best bits of Western culture and compare it with the very worst bits of every other culture, then obviously Western culture is going to look better. (Does it never occur to these people that someone could easily take the best bits of non-Western culture and compare it to the worst of Western culture and make Western culture look awful? It would be just as valid as what they’re doing.)

I also find it annoying that Maher seems to treat Western culture as a monolith. Even worse, he treats non-Western culture as a monolith. I can’t even begin to describe just how screwed up that is.

Gametime
Gametime
8 years ago

Wow, apparently calling Joe out for being an Islamophobic douchecanoe really hit some buttons. Huh.

I admit to some amusement at the fact that Joe either chose to ignore or totally missed the part where I fully admitted Islam isn’t a race and proceeded to explain how Islamophobia is nonetheless motivated by racism.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

for pretend, self-serving values of libertarian

There’s a version of libertarianism that’s not entirely self-serving? Needs citation.

Noadi
Noadi
8 years ago

People are misogynist, homophobic or racist and those who have a religion use it as cover for these beliefs. Religion as a human construct isn’t really to blame so much as people using is as a cover for their actions and beliefs.

Let’s use Christianity as an example since it’s what more of the readers here are likely to be familiar with. You have people like the Quakers who are accepting, egalitarian, and pacifists and you also have the Westboro Baptist Church which is none of those things. They both look to the same holy book but take from it vastly different things.

Islam is no different, there are liberal, accepting, egalitarian Muslims and the Taliban which is the exact opposite. For various historical reasons (many of which can be laid at the feet of the US and many European countries) the current cultural backdrop in many predominantly Muslim countries encourages extremely conservative Patriarchal expressions of Islam. This isn’t something that has always been true of Islam, when the Moors controlled Spain it was a very tolerant society with Jews, Muslims, and Christians living together (then the Christians took Spain back over and instituted the Inquisition). However a society that feels besieged is going to react by becoming very reactionary and seek to shed any influences of the culture it feels is besieging them. This isn’t to say that the intolerance, misogyny and homophobia expressed by many Muslims is right, it most certainly is not, but it’s a far more ocmplicated matter than “Islam = bad”.

This mentality is also why conservative Christianity flourishes in the US South, it’s still echoes of the Civil War and the fact that the South has never fully recovered economically from it.

Jessay (@jessay)
8 years ago

Haha, I hear ya. Every time a comment of mine is featured or I get any sort of legitimate attention it goes by in such a blaze of awkward confusion. Congrats on getting some airtime though! I’m listening to it now, psyched to hear what you have to say!

Dumbass Apostrophe
Dumbass Apostrophe
8 years ago

Can anyone explain to me what the other background picture in the Bill Maher video is supposed to mean? The “You can be a hero in America” one? Is there something I’m missing?

indifferentsky
8 years ago

Bill is more of a douchey libertarian on many fronts. Gah
And this whole “black pastors that are racist are ignored” is lame bullshit.

Bill is absolutely clueless on sexism, he’s right up there with the MRA crew.
I don’t totally hate the guy or everything he says, but I wouldn’t use him as an
example for some point I was making.

And to call Western values live and let live is so completely delusional I don’t even.
Ruby, you need some Chomsky in your life.

darksidecat
8 years ago

I’m wondering if you’d care to point out to my native american ancestors and my less white passing relatives just how ‘live and let live’ western civilization has been to them. I also suggest you tell it people who were enslaved and their descendants, as well as other victims of western imperialism. That includes the quarter of a million civilians murdered by the US army in Iraq and Afganistan. The US killed two million civilians during the Vietnam war, live and let live. The US arms and trains violent groups to prop up support for it and other western countries theft of resources and it’s political pet project of the day. It was the US who trained and armed the taliban, who put it in power under the auspices of ‘fighting the spread of communism’. This list goes on and on.

And some muslims are not homophobic-some muslims are even queer themselves. And some of the countries with the harshest anti-queer laws are in Christian majority countries, where Christianity is spread and enforced due to that wonderful ‘western civilization’ you people love so much.

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
8 years ago

Earlier, I was about to defend Ruby because I thought her comment about Westerners and freedom was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but…nope, she is completely serious. OK then

creativewritingstudent
creativewritingstudent
8 years ago

Seeing as ‘Westerners’ can’t agree on what ‘Western Values’ mean, a lot of them don’t understand what the legal rights granted to them under these values actual entail, and a lot of things done under the banner of ‘Western Values’ actually contradicts the actual values that are claimed to be supported…

Western Values are great, aren’t they? *eyeroll*

(Sorry about the minivan sentence up there, and sorry about the horrible syntax in that last clause.)

Kakanian
Kakanian
8 years ago

>In fact, I’m pretty sure that things like the rule of law aren’t unique to Western culture at all.

Assuming that the rule of law automatically makes things better is sort of naive too… I mean, Saudi Arabia does follow the law to the letter, after all.

>his isn’t something that has always been true of Islam, when the Moors controlled Spain it was a very tolerant society with Jews, Muslims, and Christians living together (then the Christians took Spain back over and instituted the Inquisition).

Eh, muslim society back then was closer to South African Appartheit in the way it organized the different faiths living together than to a anything we’d consider a liberal regime today. And that was already the case before the first wave of invaders were replace by a second, made up of adherants of a more puritian interpretation.

blitzgal
8 years ago

Ye gods, Maher has always been an asshat, but I haven’t seen this jingoistic side before. I’m glad everyone else hates him too, because I used to be concerned it was just me.

Not just you. He’s had a history of saying seriously problematic things about women since his Politically Incorrect days, and is a proponent of some major woo regarding vaccinations. I realize that atheists aren’t necessarily skeptics, but man. And I was seriously grossed out by his jingoistic descent during the beginning of the Iraq invasion. He was a major war cheerleader before he suddenly changed his mind and decided it was wrong. And he seems to seriously think that the world will be a utopia if only religion didn’t exist, as if it’s religion specifically that causes tribalism and team mentality instead of just being used as a tool to maintain tribalism and team mentality.

blitzgal
8 years ago

i repeat what i said before. there are a lot of intelligent, insightful, and creative conservatives, many of whom i adore.

I am avoiding snark as much as I can here. There are? Which ones?

xardoz
8 years ago

I nominate Ruby for Best Troll. She’s miles ahead of the guys that come here to call us ugly misandrists.

RubyHypatia
RubyHypatia
8 years ago

Yes, Western culture is superior. Why? Because of our freedoms. If you think the culture in places like Saudi Arabia is as good as the culture in Sweden, then maybe you should go live in Saudi Arabia for awhile. BTW, this is all about culture, not color.
Map of Personal Freedom
http://www.prosperity.com/freedom.aspx

RubyHypatia
RubyHypatia
8 years ago

Again, I come here because I hate misogyny. Most times I just read David’s blog, make a comment, and don’t bother reading what anyone else says. That’s not what a troll does. It’s really stupid to call people trolls just because you don’t like their viewpoints.

CrazyLadyBlues
CrazyLadyBlues
8 years ago

@The First Joe: The Pink Paper article describes the gang as Asian, it doesn’t mention their religion. You do realise that Asian doesn’t automatically equal Muslim, don’t you? Also, stop assuming that just because we don’t mention every single incident of racist, homophobic, misogynist violence that we support it. I’m not going to start prefacing every single post on here with “I condemn every act of racist, homophobic & misogynist act of violence & their perpetrators”. Because some things do not need to be stated every time.

Oh & I also condemn misandric acts of violence as well, just in case I raise the wrath of NWO.

RubyHypatia
RubyHypatia
8 years ago

Oh, and Western culture is also superior because we make things like automobiles, computers, smart phones, and atom smashers. Heck, we can put people on the moon. We just put a rover on Mars. We’ve got a space station.

blitzgal
8 years ago

Yes, Western culture is superior.

As has already been pointed out to you, this attitude has lead to imperialism, genocide, and the destruction of countless groups of people over the course of the past several centuries. Africans were enslaved and sold as property for centuries….this is Western freedom? The Native Americans were slaughtered and then forcibly “Westernized,” and their culture and history erased…this is Western freedom? The British empire forcibly colonized one quarter of the Earth’s population….this is Western freedom? You are delusional.

heidihi
heidihi
8 years ago

Ruby: “Yes, Western culture is superior. Why? Because of our freedoms.”

LAWLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL this is almost literally the mock sentence my hubsband and i use to make fun of a relative who is a rightwing, fox news listening, rush limbaugh loving 50’s father stereotype.

Do “they” also “hate us because of our freedoms”??? do “they”????

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 years ago

Oh, and Western culture is also superior because we make things like automobiles, computers, smart phones, and atom smashers. Heck, we can put people on the moon. We just put a rover on Mars. We’ve got a space station.

Holy fuck. Hey Ruby, what would you say if I said men are superior, because for the most part it was men who designed and manufactured all of those things? Would you say “oh, that makes a lot of sense, men rock!” or would you correctly point out the many ways women have been, and continue to be, left out of those industries? Would you point out the ways that women’s contributions to technology are systematically erased and undervalued, or attributed to their male superiors? Yes? No?

But “we’ve got a space station” is a perfectly valid explanation for why white people are just better, right? No need to think that one through.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

Oh, and Western culture is also superior because we make things like automobiles, computers, smart phones, and atom smashers.

The rubber that made early automobiles possible was grown by coerced farmers in Africa (look up the term “red rubber”). Most internal components of computers and smartphones are made in China and Taiwan, often under horrible working conditions

The reason that Western culture has so much stuff is because Westerners forced other people to make it for us.

Also, is the ability to make a smartphone or an atom smasher really the mark of a “superior” civilization? I tend to feel that Rumi and Gandhi were more civilized people than, for example, Oppenheimer and Steve Jobs.
,

The First Joe
The First Joe
8 years ago

@Falconer – here in the UK by BIGOTED RACIST DEFINITION the only official hate crimes are those committed by white people.
So, for instance the despicable murder of Steven Lawrence (a black lad) by a bunch of white evil, racist thugs was CORRECTLY recorded as a racist hate crime.

The attempted murder of Olly Hemsley was INCORRECTLY NOT recorded as a racist, religious or homophobic hate crime, because BY BIGOTED RACIST DEFINITION people from a “minority” background are officially held to be magically unable to commit hate crimes against white people. The UK’s hate crime laws are RACIST!!

If the hate crime laws in the UK had any balance the Rochdale Pedophile Rapists (all Muslims, 8 Pakistani, 1 Afghan) would be guilty of double hate crime – because they only victimised young girls who were NOT of the same race, and who were NOT of the same RELIGION. However, the bullshitting coppers came out with this:

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17989463
“… Assistant Chief Constable Steve Heywood of Greater Manchester Police (GMP) denied that the ethnicity of either the defendants or the victims was a factor.
“It is not a racial issue,” he said. “This is about adults preying on vulnerable young children.
“It just happens that in this particular area and time the demographics were that these were Asian men.”….”

But guess what? Here’s a GOOD Muslim man who is NOT AFRAID to call out the race hatred motivation of the Rochdale Pedos:

“…Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of of the Ramadhan Foundation, accused Pakistani community elders of “burying their heads in the sand” on the issue of on-street grooming.
“There is a significant problem for the British Pakistani community,” he said.
“There should be no silence in addressing the issue of race as this is central to the actions of these criminals.
“They think that white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused without a second thought; it is this sort of behaviour that is bringing shame on our community.”….”

^I applaud this good, decent Muslim man’s honesty and bravery in condemning the RACIST actions of evil men.

Another good, decent Muslim, the prosecutor in the case said:
“You can’t get away from the race element,” says prosecutor Nazir Afzal, a British Muslim with family roots in Pakistan who ended several years of official indifference to the girls’ plight and finally brought the perpetrators to trial. “It’s the elephant in the room.”

But still, officially the Rochdale Rapists are not officially acknowledged as racist, bigotted hate-criminals. It’s official BULLSHIT!

And you’re asking me to come up with official figures on hate crimes! You clearly have no idea about the UK!

The First Joe
The First Joe
8 years ago

@Sir Knobend – I wasn’t “doing a victory dance” or “co-opting” anything you utter fuckwit! People kept nit-picking and I gave you PROOF, that’s all. There’s no sense of triumph in trying to wake up you WILFULLY IGNORANT MORONS.
That feeling of nausea? It’s the cognitive dissonance between the FACTS and YOUR OWN PC RACIST BIGOTRY which will not allow you to see what is going on right in front of you.

@Anathema and Falconer – Once again, fuck off with your “codes” and “dog whistles” bullshit. The WHITE THUGS who murdered Steven Lawrence are thugs, because they committed an act of violent thuggery. The THUGS who tried to kill Olly Hemsley and left him PARALYSED are thugs too. It’s not fucking rocket science you RACIST BIGOT. THUGS are DEFINED by their BEHAVIOUR, which is VIOLENT. That’s all there is too it, you ignorant BIGOT.

@Kirbywarp – I’m calling people here RACISTS BECAUSE THEY ARE BIGOTS! MORON!

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

Yes, Western culture is superior. Why? Because of our freedoms.

Exporting oppression overseas is not the same thing as ending oppression. There are feminists in every country in the world, many of whom are persecuted by governments supported by the West. If Westerners have womens’ rights here but Western governments and corporations help build prisons for feminists in Saudi Arabia, it kind of shows the limit of our commitment to freedom, don’t you think?

The First Joe
The First Joe
8 years ago

@Anathema and Kirbywarp – BULLSHIT! I NEVER SAID THAT YOU LYING RACIST FUCKBAGS!

I NEVER, EVER said “ALL” Muslims.

I specifically identified EXTREMIST, HOMOPHOBIC Muslims.

NAMALT! Not all Muslims are like that! In fact I reckon it’s only a minority of Muslims that are like that. I have NO PROBLEM with non-violent Muslims who leave other people alone and get on with their own lives peacefully.

You are so DESPERATE to weasel out of the FACT that you and your fellow BIGOTS are EXCUSING and SUPPORTING VIOLENT HOMOPHOBES to maintain your PC worldview, that you are trying to put LIES into my mouth! FUCK OFF LYING RACIST BIGOTS!

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

They think that white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused without a second thought

Says the man who comes here every day to defend Western rape apologists.

The First Joe
The First Joe
8 years ago

@Gametime – Yeah, you RACIST FUCKWIT you talked a whole lot of FUCKING BULLSHIT. You are a BIGOTED RACIST HOMOPHOBE and you are PANDERING to evil thugs who tried to MURDER a young gay lad and left him PARALYSED. You are actually defending these evil, violent fuckers! YOU ARE SCUM!

@Myoo – yeah, blather on about the Catholic Church in Europe forty years ago. I’m talking about VILOENT RACIST HOMOPHOBIC BASTARDS in the UK RIGHT NOW!

@Cloudiah – Yeah, there’s a LOT of anti-gay hatred in Eastern Europe right now, it’s fucking nasty and certainly the official oppression of gays in Russia has NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM.
But that’s NOT what’s happening in the UK right now.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

I specifically identified EXTREMIST, HOMOPHOBIC Muslims.

Why not extremist, homophobic PEOPLE, full stop? Of course, that would include a large number of MRAs.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Most times I just read David’s blog, make a comment, and don’t bother reading what anyone else says.

That’s why people can’t stand you. You throw an epic turd of stupidity in the punchbowl and refuse to engage.

And a lot of our trolls don’t read for shit, so don’t go around thinking that makes you special or anything.

The First Joe
The First Joe
8 years ago

@Cliff – NO. I’m not calling for people to “hate muslims”, that would be idiotic!
I’m calling for people to condemn violent hate crimes by extremist, fascist muslims – by calling those crimes what they are – which is: violent hate crimes by extremist bigots.
Instead, what the “manboobz massive” is doing is DEFENDING VIOLENT EXTREMIST BIGOTS. Which makes the manboobzers RACIST BIGOTS.

@Crazyladyblues – The Johan Hari article identifies the perpetrators as Muslim.

No, that’s not why I’m condemning the RACIST BIGOTS here on manboobz. I’m condemning them because their response to hearing the about the stabbing of Olly Hemsley by BIGOTED RACIST HOMOPHOBES was to IGNORE the VICTIM and DEFEND the VIOLENT THUGS WHO TRIED TO MURDER HIM (with, so far, just ONE exception).
That’s why I condemn the mass of BIGOTED RACISTS here at manboobz.

The First Joe
The First Joe
8 years ago

@Ugh – Fuck off ! You LYING RACIST BIGOT! MORON!

Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
8 years ago

Hey Ruby, did you know that Communist Russia built a space station and sent probes to Mars, Venus and the Moon? Or that Communist China also has an experimental space station, and plans to launch a more permanent one next year?

Is “space station = cultural superiority!” really a good argument for a libertarian to be making?

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

This is from awhile back but pretty hilarious, from Ruby:

I was just referring to our Western ideals of, “live and let live.” I hope it spreads throughout the entire world.

LOL! I challenge you to find a single country in the entire world that western states have “lived and let live” towards in the past century.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Joe, stomping around in full frontal caps lock rage and calling us bigots over and over doesn’t make it true, you know.

Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
8 years ago

Joe, I see you’ve started this session with meltdown mode already started. Excellent. This will save you time later.

The First Joe
The First Joe
8 years ago

@Ugh – Also: you SMUG, SELF-SATISFIED, SELF-RIGHTEOUS LYING WANKER!
You just tried to equate an entire human rights movement with rape. You are a LYING BIGOTTED FUCKWIT!

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

@Joe

Haha yes it ihow terrible of me to say that a large number of MRAs are homophobic, that rubber was in fact mostly grown in the Congo under a violent Western regime, that smartphones are mostly made in China and Taiwan, and that Saudi Arabia’s prison system has links to Western governments and corporations.

It’s not like any of these things could be verified by a Google search or anything.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

@Ug, yeah, we’ve been totally “live and let live” about Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, Korea, Central America… all sorts of places where we’ve just rolled up all chill and “keep on keepin’ on, brown people.”

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

@Joe

Haha no I equated a hate movement to rape apologists. Which they are. Find me an MRA site where they agree that people should not have sex until they’ve received noncoerced, non-manipulated enthusiastic consent, and then come back here to argue that they’re not apologists.

Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
8 years ago

Which human rights movement would that be?

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

@Joe

Hell, find me a single MRA site where discussions of rape are about how rapists shouldn’t be rapists, and not about how women’s actions are responsible.

Myoo
Myoo
8 years ago

The First Joe:

@Myoo – yeah, blather on about the Catholic Church in Europe forty years ago. I’m talking about VILOENT RACIST HOMOPHOBIC BASTARDS in the UK RIGHT NOW!

Oh, so it only counts when YOU blather on about Muslims decades ago? Like you did here:

Hell, the Islamists you support joined the Nazis! During WWII the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem tried to get in on as much of the action as possible, writing to Hitler to try and get Nazi help against Jews in Palestine. The Mufti:

“….recruited Muslim volunteers for the German armed forces operating in the Balkans. Beginning in 1941, al-Husseini visited Bosnia, and convinced Muslim leaders that a Muslim S.S. division would be in the interest of Islam. In spite of these and other propaganda efforts, “only half of the expected 20,000 to 25,000 Muslims volunteered’.[163] The largest division was the 13th Handschar division, which conducted operations against Communist partisans in the Balkans from February 1944. The creation of this division displeased the Croatian government, which raised numerous minor obstacles to its activities, out of fear that it would serve as a basis for Muslim autonomy.[164]

In 1942, al-Husseini helped organize Arab students and North African emigres in Germany into the “Arabisches Freiheitkorps,” an Arab Legion in the German Army that hunted down Allied parachutists in the Balkans and fought on the Russian front.[165]

On March 1, 1944, while speaking on Radio Berlin, al-Husseini said: ‘Arabs, rise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you.’[166][167][168] He was promised the leadership of Palestine after German troops had driven out the British.[169] At the end of the war, he was allowed to flee to Syria as part of an attempt to prevent the alienation of Middle Eastern regimes.[169]…”

BigMomma
BigMomma
8 years ago

Joe is being very monotonous. Yawn.

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