It’s pretty good show. Most of the discussion involves social media researcher and Fordham professor Alice Marwick and Helen Lewis of the New Statesman. Those of us in the Google+ Hangout pop in briefly with comments and questions.
FWIW, I appear only briefly in the show proper, but I have a somewhat longer (and a bit more coherent) comment in the ten minute “online only” portion that immediately follows the show (and which is also on this video).
It was a somewhat strange, if educational, experience, my first appearance on TV. (The next time I get webcammed into a show, I won’t reflexively look down at the laptop while talking.) It all went by really, really quickly. Weirdly frantic behind the scenes as the producer tried to slot us all in.
The comments on the video on YouTube nicely illustrate the problem we were discussing; that is, they are a rancid pile of misogynistic shitlordery.
My favorite comment is this one from Urhoboman5 about Rebecca Watson:
At 5;30 that chick has a youtube channel. Just type in rebecca feminist and you’ll find it. Interesting how most of her videos are voted down. Sometimes as much as 80% negative because the stuff she says is pure nonsense.
That’s right. He actually thinks that the fact that her videos are targeted by downvote squads proves that she’s wrong to talk about harassment. She’s harassed by dudes who don’t like her talking about harassment so therefore it’s “nonsense” for her to talk about harassment. Brilliant.
I’ve run into a few people who seem to think this. I can’t understand why, though – there are plenty of people who do not believe in a deity/deities who are racist, homo/transphobic, and misogynistic as well as many religious people who aren’t any of those things, and I would think that the existence of said people would be enough to counteract that thinking. Religion is just the window dressing; evo psych believers are a prime example of non-religious based beliefs that are used as a tool for tribalism. (Phrenology, anyone?)
This thinking was annoying when I was more active in my religion and it still annoys me to this day. “BUT YOU BELIEVE IN THE SKY FAIRY” didn’t negate the perfectly valid points I made nor the evidence that people will still believe shitty things in the absence of a deity/deities.
As for “Western civilization”, isn’t a lot of the US Constitution derived from ideas from Native American societies? There were people living on this continent long before the Europeans arrived, with their own systems of government, even.
Cassandra, I have a co-worker to whom I cannot mention Coldplay, or it will set off an epic rant about their lack of talent and how they should send a thank-you letter to Thom Yorke every fucking day.
AbsintheDexterous: The big difference is religion has power and privilege behind it.
Shade: Depends on the religion. I know a lot of Wiccans, and a few Sikhs, and a lot of Quakers. There are religions which have that sort of privilege, but Absinthe is talking about the idea that religion, in any form, = root cause of evil. The advantages religions may have aren’t so much becuase, “religion” but because tribalism. Look at First Joe and his use of, “Muslims”. He didn’t mean actual muslims. He was very careful to explain it was just the “Bad Ones” who come from the Middle East/have dark skin.
Even if “religion” went away the David Dukes, the Geert Wilders, the BNP would have that on their side.
And those damn kids who won’t get off your lawn!
Pecunium: That’s true. I was mostly focusing on the concept of other things that are used as tools for that sort of thinking, because people using evo psych to justify these things isn’t really on the same scale as people using (some) religion to justify it.
I should’ve probably quoted something to clarify that.
I’m also wary of people using the “other people are bad too” argument because while it’s a good way to counter “religion (or whatever other thing) is the only source of bad things”, that’s about the extent of its ability. Maybe i’ve been spoiled by anti-secularists and others using that argument way too much.
Blue jeans and rock music originated in America.
Other great things in Western culture: theme parks, pizza, Halloween, basketball, and teddy bears.
CassandraSays
Ruby
My laughter is most definitely of the “out loud” variety
@CassandraSays
I wouldn’t mind taking Coldplay off your hands. What say we do a straight swap for the Biebs?
The use of, and belief in “Western Civilization” as an actual *thing* instead of an historically colonialist and oppressive fiction, is a warning signal.
The “Western Civ” requirement in universities has been increasingly replaced by “World History” during the second half of the 20th century.
That change reflects the challenges to the fiction of the inherent superiority of Western Civilization, especially the idea that “we” superior european/aryan/white types “invented” everything.
Not surprising Ruby is trollishly pimping the outdated colonialist and racist concept.
Yes. Because white Westerners dragged the ancestors of the people who created it over here in chains. YAY FOR US.
Rock music isn’t “Western.” It is, in fact, from a musicological perspective, a fantastic example of where humanity actually excels – a product of multiple cultures intermixing. Rock music borrows from an assortment of African musical traditions, adds in a sprinkle of European musical traditions, and comes up with something entirely new. That’s awesome. It’s not, however, something “the West” can reasonably take credit for, and definitely not something white Westerners can take credit for*, because it was pretty unambiguously African-Americans who created rock and roll.
*Well, okay, they can insofar as they quite definitely did, because the 40s and 50s were a great time for white people who wanted to go, “Oh hey, that black guy just did something brilliant. I think I’ll copy him exactly and get credit for inventing something brilliant!” Reasonable adults in 2012, however, ought to be capable of figuring out that that is racist as fuck. Sadly, I am talking to Ruby, so, you know, “reasonable adult” may be a bit of a stretch.
Oh, and I also love how Western culture adopts aspects of other cultures, which makes for great diversity. It has given us a varied diet. My daughter is crazy about anime. My aunt used to belly dance.
No, Western culture is not perfect. It has and probably always will be a work in progress. I look forward to having a one world culture that doesn’t include things like war, racism, misogyny, and homophobia.
Of course you fucking do.
ruby are you just trying to look like a moron at this point
You do realize that someone as dumb and racist as you won’t be a part of this, right?
And non-Western cultures don’t adopt aspects of other cultures? If anything, I’d think that non-Western cultures would have adopted more aspects of Western culture than the other way around, given the dominance of the West on the world stage.
Really, I just love this line of argument. “Western culture is superior. Sure, some of the best aspects of Western culture were stolen from non-Western cultures. But that only goes to show just how superior Western culture is.”
If Western culture comes up with great ideas on it’s own, then that only goes to show that Western culture is superior. If a lot of the great aspects of Western culture were actually taken from other cultures, that still only goes to show how superior the West is.
Geez, Ruby, why not just outright say “Heads I win, tails you lose” and be done with it?
Why? I look forward to a just world myself, we don’t need a one world culture for that. There’s nothing wrong with diversity, and I’m always pretty suspicious of people who think the world would be a better place without it. I doubt I’m far off base when I say that your perfect one world culture involves “Western Culture” with just a little more appropriation.
Also, apropos to the rock convo:
Don’t get ahead of yourself, skippy.
It’s The Seven Samurai with cowboys. They explicitly say this. You can’t use it as proof of the superiority of western civilization. I didn’t say it was a bad movie, but that’s one of the few non-drek action movies I can think of, and it’s a remake of a non-Western movie.
Each with as much validity as the rest of your fevered imaginings.
Yeah, that is a ding on the movie, but seeing as I don’t think it’s shit…
Seeing as they’re up front about it, not really an issue.
‘ideological correctness’, as you define it, is an artistic merit. If the art is horrifically racist, or horrifically sexist, that’s kind of a black mark on the art.
You could speed it along a little bit by not pretending western civilization is superior.
Who gives a fuck? They’re just tough work clothes.
Rock music is honkies stealing the music of black people after treating them like shit… If you want to really center your claim on “Western Civilization is superior” on it oppressing non-white people, well, that’s just fine with me I guess.
Actually, “our” freedumbs are the major problem with western culture. What I hate the most about western culture is its pervasive anthropomorphism and the belief that human desires and affairs have cosmic significance(not to mention the foolish belief that people are basically good).
The cosmic irrelevance of humanity that is prominent in Lovecraft stories and other writings is the result of him being influenced by Native American beliefs.
Hi David- Just wanted to say that I thought that the discussion was good and I thought your comments were spot on. Great job.
Yes, I would love to see the world rid of hate and bigatry, religion and superstition. I know it’s a pollyanna vision, but I can dream. It’s one of the reasons I’m a Star Trek fan.
But anyway, good job David. I hope other news outlets start discussing this issue.
Ruby you are one hateful prick. Take that head out of your ass for one damn second and think instead of screaming about how right you are constantly.
Why do random stuff america stole from other countries make their country “the best”? Do you even realize how much of an imperialist asshole you sound like?
AMERICA IS THE BEST AND ALMOST PERFECT WORLD BECAUSE WE ONLY HAD TO STEAL THINGS FROM OTHER CULTURES AND MOST OF THE STUFF IN AMERICA IS MADE OFF EXPLOITING OTHER COUNTRIES. AMERICA IS STILL AWESOME THOUGH CAUSE BLUE JEANS ANS ROCK MUSIC. WHATS THAT???? OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE AWESOME STUFF TOO??? FUCK THAT! MERIKA IS THE ONLY COUNTRY THAT COUNTS!!