It’s pretty good show. Most of the discussion involves social media researcher and Fordham professor Alice Marwick and Helen Lewis of the New Statesman. Those of us in the Google+ Hangout pop in briefly with comments and questions.
FWIW, I appear only briefly in the show proper, but I have a somewhat longer (and a bit more coherent) comment in the ten minute “online only” portion that immediately follows the show (and which is also on this video).
It was a somewhat strange, if educational, experience, my first appearance on TV. (The next time I get webcammed into a show, I won’t reflexively look down at the laptop while talking.) It all went by really, really quickly. Weirdly frantic behind the scenes as the producer tried to slot us all in.
The comments on the video on YouTube nicely illustrate the problem we were discussing; that is, they are a rancid pile of misogynistic shitlordery.
My favorite comment is this one from Urhoboman5 about Rebecca Watson:
At 5;30 that chick has a youtube channel. Just type in rebecca feminist and you’ll find it. Interesting how most of her videos are voted down. Sometimes as much as 80% negative because the stuff she says is pure nonsense.
That’s right. He actually thinks that the fact that her videos are targeted by downvote squads proves that she’s wrong to talk about harassment. She’s harassed by dudes who don’t like her talking about harassment so therefore it’s “nonsense” for her to talk about harassment. Brilliant.
Y’all do have it going on there, can’t deny that 😛
Ruby says:
Cliff says:
Stormfronters believe that white civilization is superior and that people of color lack the temperament and perhaps the intelligence to adopt it. Progressive utopian human rights imperialists like Ruby and Bill Maher believe that secular humanist Enlightenment can and should be adopted universally, and the whole world will live as one.
Ye gods, Maher has always been an asshat, but I haven’t seen this jingoistic side before. I’m glad everyone else hates him too, because I used to be concerned it was just me.
It’s a good illustration of how, once you’ve declared that you belong to a demographic that’s superior to everyone else, it’s easy to start declaring other demographics you belong to as also superior.
Pronouncing “white” as “Western” doesn’t fool anyone, scrapemind.
Step 1: Eliminate all dissenting opinions.
Step 2: Join hands and sing John Lennon songs.
yeah, in addition to thinking women are basically animals, maher loathes muslims, because it makes him feel better about his knee-jerk support for israel
also there’s his anti-science shit, and the fact that he isn’t actually funny
but mostly it cracks me up that ‘i am too a feminist’ ruby is going to bill maher for support
It’s also that Maher seems to be working from a very weird idea of “Western culture.” For one thing, I’m not sure that much of what he mentions is actually unique to Western culture. In fact, I’m pretty sure that things like the rule of law aren’t unique to Western culture at all. I’m pretty sure that there are lots of different cultures that have come to that idea independently. So how come it only counts as a product of Western culture?
The cherry-picking is just painful. I mean, if you take the very best bits of Western culture and compare it with the very worst bits of every other culture, then obviously Western culture is going to look better. (Does it never occur to these people that someone could easily take the best bits of non-Western culture and compare it to the worst of Western culture and make Western culture look awful? It would be just as valid as what they’re doing.)
I also find it annoying that Maher seems to treat Western culture as a monolith. Even worse, he treats non-Western culture as a monolith. I can’t even begin to describe just how screwed up that is.
Wow, apparently calling Joe out for being an Islamophobic douchecanoe really hit some buttons. Huh.
I admit to some amusement at the fact that Joe either chose to ignore or totally missed the part where I fully admitted Islam isn’t a race and proceeded to explain how Islamophobia is nonetheless motivated by racism.
There’s a version of libertarianism that’s not entirely self-serving? Needs citation.
People are misogynist, homophobic or racist and those who have a religion use it as cover for these beliefs. Religion as a human construct isn’t really to blame so much as people using is as a cover for their actions and beliefs.
Let’s use Christianity as an example since it’s what more of the readers here are likely to be familiar with. You have people like the Quakers who are accepting, egalitarian, and pacifists and you also have the Westboro Baptist Church which is none of those things. They both look to the same holy book but take from it vastly different things.
Islam is no different, there are liberal, accepting, egalitarian Muslims and the Taliban which is the exact opposite. For various historical reasons (many of which can be laid at the feet of the US and many European countries) the current cultural backdrop in many predominantly Muslim countries encourages extremely conservative Patriarchal expressions of Islam. This isn’t something that has always been true of Islam, when the Moors controlled Spain it was a very tolerant society with Jews, Muslims, and Christians living together (then the Christians took Spain back over and instituted the Inquisition). However a society that feels besieged is going to react by becoming very reactionary and seek to shed any influences of the culture it feels is besieging them. This isn’t to say that the intolerance, misogyny and homophobia expressed by many Muslims is right, it most certainly is not, but it’s a far more ocmplicated matter than “Islam = bad”.
This mentality is also why conservative Christianity flourishes in the US South, it’s still echoes of the Civil War and the fact that the South has never fully recovered economically from it.
Haha, I hear ya. Every time a comment of mine is featured or I get any sort of legitimate attention it goes by in such a blaze of awkward confusion. Congrats on getting some airtime though! I’m listening to it now, psyched to hear what you have to say!
Can anyone explain to me what the other background picture in the Bill Maher video is supposed to mean? The “You can be a hero in America” one? Is there something I’m missing?
Bill is more of a douchey libertarian on many fronts. Gah
And this whole “black pastors that are racist are ignored” is lame bullshit.
Bill is absolutely clueless on sexism, he’s right up there with the MRA crew.
I don’t totally hate the guy or everything he says, but I wouldn’t use him as an
example for some point I was making.
And to call Western values live and let live is so completely delusional I don’t even.
Ruby, you need some Chomsky in your life.
I’m wondering if you’d care to point out to my native american ancestors and my less white passing relatives just how ‘live and let live’ western civilization has been to them. I also suggest you tell it people who were enslaved and their descendants, as well as other victims of western imperialism. That includes the quarter of a million civilians murdered by the US army in Iraq and Afganistan. The US killed two million civilians during the Vietnam war, live and let live. The US arms and trains violent groups to prop up support for it and other western countries theft of resources and it’s political pet project of the day. It was the US who trained and armed the taliban, who put it in power under the auspices of ‘fighting the spread of communism’. This list goes on and on.
And some muslims are not homophobic-some muslims are even queer themselves. And some of the countries with the harshest anti-queer laws are in Christian majority countries, where Christianity is spread and enforced due to that wonderful ‘western civilization’ you people love so much.
Earlier, I was about to defend Ruby because I thought her comment about Westerners and freedom was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but…nope, she is completely serious. OK then
Seeing as ‘Westerners’ can’t agree on what ‘Western Values’ mean, a lot of them don’t understand what the legal rights granted to them under these values actual entail, and a lot of things done under the banner of ‘Western Values’ actually contradicts the actual values that are claimed to be supported…
Western Values are great, aren’t they? *eyeroll*
(Sorry about the minivan sentence up there, and sorry about the horrible syntax in that last clause.)
>In fact, I’m pretty sure that things like the rule of law aren’t unique to Western culture at all.
Assuming that the rule of law automatically makes things better is sort of naive too… I mean, Saudi Arabia does follow the law to the letter, after all.
>his isn’t something that has always been true of Islam, when the Moors controlled Spain it was a very tolerant society with Jews, Muslims, and Christians living together (then the Christians took Spain back over and instituted the Inquisition).
Eh, muslim society back then was closer to South African Appartheit in the way it organized the different faiths living together than to a anything we’d consider a liberal regime today. And that was already the case before the first wave of invaders were replace by a second, made up of adherants of a more puritian interpretation.
Not just you. He’s had a history of saying seriously problematic things about women since his Politically Incorrect days, and is a proponent of some major woo regarding vaccinations. I realize that atheists aren’t necessarily skeptics, but man. And I was seriously grossed out by his jingoistic descent during the beginning of the Iraq invasion. He was a major war cheerleader before he suddenly changed his mind and decided it was wrong. And he seems to seriously think that the world will be a utopia if only religion didn’t exist, as if it’s religion specifically that causes tribalism and team mentality instead of just being used as a tool to maintain tribalism and team mentality.
I am avoiding snark as much as I can here. There are? Which ones?
I nominate Ruby for Best Troll. She’s miles ahead of the guys that come here to call us ugly misandrists.
Yes, Western culture is superior. Why? Because of our freedoms. If you think the culture in places like Saudi Arabia is as good as the culture in Sweden, then maybe you should go live in Saudi Arabia for awhile. BTW, this is all about culture, not color.
Map of Personal Freedom
http://www.prosperity.com/freedom.aspx
Again, I come here because I hate misogyny. Most times I just read David’s blog, make a comment, and don’t bother reading what anyone else says. That’s not what a troll does. It’s really stupid to call people trolls just because you don’t like their viewpoints.
@The First Joe: The Pink Paper article describes the gang as Asian, it doesn’t mention their religion. You do realise that Asian doesn’t automatically equal Muslim, don’t you? Also, stop assuming that just because we don’t mention every single incident of racist, homophobic, misogynist violence that we support it. I’m not going to start prefacing every single post on here with “I condemn every act of racist, homophobic & misogynist act of violence & their perpetrators”. Because some things do not need to be stated every time.
Oh & I also condemn misandric acts of violence as well, just in case I raise the wrath of NWO.
Oh, and Western culture is also superior because we make things like automobiles, computers, smart phones, and atom smashers. Heck, we can put people on the moon. We just put a rover on Mars. We’ve got a space station.
As has already been pointed out to you, this attitude has lead to imperialism, genocide, and the destruction of countless groups of people over the course of the past several centuries. Africans were enslaved and sold as property for centuries….this is Western freedom? The Native Americans were slaughtered and then forcibly “Westernized,” and their culture and history erased…this is Western freedom? The British empire forcibly colonized one quarter of the Earth’s population….this is Western freedom? You are delusional.