Oh, you ladies, why do you even bother getting educated – sorry, “educated?” Don’t you know that if you get too educated you might end up marrying some dude who is less educated than you, which is apparently contrary to the laws of nature? Or maybe you’ll end up not getting married at all? The horror.
On The Spearhead, guest poster Lyn87 explains how he dropped some “red pill” knowledge on a buddy of his during a recent outing:
One guy has teenage daughters that he’s planning to put through college. I could not resist inserting some red pill into the mix, so I mentioned that 60% of degrees were going to women, and that women prefer to marry up. Since “educated” women don’t often go for “uneducated” men, a lot of women of his daughter’s generation were on their way toward spinsterhood for lack of “suitable” mates.
So women with education are only “educated” in scare-quotes. But men who are “uneducated” also get the scare quotes, because presumably they are wise beyond their years of formal study.
Alas, Lyn87’s friend wasn’t convinced by this brilliant argument to reconsider his decision to put his daughters through college, which leads Lyn87 to consider the possibility that “that some malevolent group of “Jezebels” is dissolving blue pills into the supply of drinking water.” Lions and tigers and malevolent Jezebels, oh my!
Consider his daughters. I’m sure they are good kids who would make any parent proud. But they don’t live on an island – they live among their peers and within the confines of biological and demographic reality. Even if EVERY one of their male college classmates marries one of his female classmates, a third of those young women will not find a male age-peer who is even her “academic equal,” much less someone with a higher level of education. But not every male graduate will marry a female classmate. Some will marry down. Some will choose not marry at all. Then subtract out the guys who are “creepy,” gay, or otherwise unsuitable, and we are left with a generation of “educated” women who are barreling toward a demographic wall at high velocity.
So women marrying guys with less education, or deciding not to marry at all, is somehow the equivalent of careening into a brick wall at top speed?
Marry up? My buddy’s daughters will be lucky if they can marry “across.” Many women of that generation will face hard choices: supply and demand in the adult world doesn’t much care how “empowered” you were in college. The women of that generation may be able to marry down, but few will want to. They may not marry at all and become wards of the state when they bear bastard children. They may become involuntary childless spinsters. They may go for much older men, but many of them have been through the Family Court meat grinder and must devote much of their effort to paying their exes’ bills.
Or they could end up like a friend of mine, happily unmarried at the age of 40 and dating a dude in his twenties. Or like another friend of mine, also 40, in a happily open marriage with a man a few years her junior and with several regular partners on the side. Or in a committed lesbian relationship.
And why assume that any single woman older than, oh, 25 is “involuntarily childless?” Most of the women I hang out with don’t want kids. They really, really don’t.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Lyn87, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
We know the score here: the degrees these girls are getting cluster in the “Who are you trying to kid?” category. They are not truly superior to the guys of their generation, but that degree in “You Must Be Joking!” makes them think they are. Most emerge from college with a pile of debt, no marketable skills they didn’t already possess in high school, and a few laps around the carousel – older but no wiser, and blissfully unaware that half of their years of prime beauty and fertility are already in the rear-view mirror.
Ugh. This again? At the age of 22 or so, “half of their years of prime beauty and fertility” are gone? Really? Their biological clock starts ticking at the age of, what, 16?
So instead of going to college, girls should be getting hitched before they even graduate from high school, so as to maximize their prime years of beauty and fertility? Sorry to have to break this to you, Lyn87, but that’s a recipe for disaster — even by “traditionalist” standards. According to a 2001 study by the Centers for Disease Control, nearly half of those who marry before they’re 18 divorce within ten years; that’s twice the divorce rate of those who wait until they’re at least 25.
Lyn87, somehow I suspect your buddy with the teenage daughters is doing a better job of looking out for their best interests than you are.
Some, er, “highlights” from the comments.
Kendoka seconds Lyn87’s concerns:
I question the popular wisdom of fathers relinquishing custody and authority over their 18 year old daughters by putting them through an institution designed to indoctrinate and create entitled promiscuous feminist careerist harpies and not loving wives and mothers through marriage.
A Father’s work is not complete until he has guided his daughter directly into marriage with his authority transfered to her husband. “Careers” can wait. Family cannot.
DruidV shares his less-than-fond memories of life in the 1980s, and offers a note of optimism for the future (for dudes anyway):
Way back in prehistoric times, say around 1985, I used to find myself very depressed when I would take note of all the foolish and desperate males I knew, who were jumping through impossible hoops for fickle females that just would let the poor bastards continue to keep right on jumping through those hoops, apparently just for their own entertainment. These twats seemed to take an almost sociopathic delight in this ‘sport’. The males were simply trying to be accepted.
Pathetic, really.Nowadays, I look about and see that young males are sick, tired, disgusted and jaded with these soulless cunts. Make no mistake, the hoops are still there, firmly in place for the males to jump through, but they are seeing less and less traffic every day.
I for one can easily see the females of generation z growing old alone, but for their cats and dying that way too and from what I’ve seen, these bitches can forget about marrying up, or even across anymore. These asshole entitlement whores won’t even be marrying down, in the not too distant future.
YAY!!!
Keyster presents a similarly optimistic scenario for the future — if predicting the apocalypse counts as optimism, which it generally does in MRA circles:
We have a perfect storm brewing of women working, men not, and each one rejecting marriage. In case no one noticed the Feminists started the gender war, and they won. Present day we live with the spiraling consequences; societal decline. Upon the collapse women will be the victims, AGAIN. The survivors will be men with only their own self-interest in mind. The last remnants of white-knightery will struggle to protect and provide, but will be ill-equipped to handle the guilt of failing.
Days of Broken Arrows isn’t quite so dramatic. He merely predicts that the dad planning on sending his girls to college will end up regretting this decision:
[N]ow instead of his daughter someday marrying the guy she met at 18, he’d prefer [her] to be using every orifice when she’s a fucktoy for a line of Alpha males who’ll pump and dump her. And he means that he doesn’t want a son-in-law or grandchildren. Well, I guess that’s all well and good, so long as it’s not “the way it used to be.”
Huh. Do colleges even have classes any more, or is it just one long orgy? How do these Alpha males have any time to study?
By the way, this is a totally different cloudiah, but I love this picture. I am, however, not endorsing everything this person with the same nym says or does or posts online.
I do endorse this site 100%.
“Oh, wait, I did learn something in the whole “zie / hir” debate the other day. And I’ve changed my stance on that particular issue (i.e. I hereby agree that using a new pronoun for intersex and/or genderqueer peeps who don’t ID as either male or female is a good thing.)”
Ah, I knew there was a reason I refused to take you seriously! Honestly though, thank you, I will attempt not to be excessively snarky.
Every time a troll tries to argue that we cherrypick the absolute worst examples of the MRM, we ask them to produce moderate commentary. And you’re exactly right — not a single one has been able to do this.
Joe, did you seriously just stalk a regular and come tattling back here? In case you haven;t been hipped, feminism is not a monolith. While I may not agree with where or what the Bewliderness posts, it’s their life. I can respect that. I can even respect that and not go shitting on someone else’s rug in a right tantrum about it.
Quoted for truth, and welcome, Crommunist.
@Argenti – I’ve already listed a bunch of stuff I consider important men’s rights stuff in prevbious threads, but hey – remember Cliff recommended I read up some (more) Ally Fogg? Thanks Cliff.
Ally disavows the MRM because: misogyny, and is not a feminist, would probably identify as a humanist (I think).
So here’s Ally’s review of a book called “The Second Sexism” which flags up some of the shit I think men are suffering from:
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/lifestyle/2012/05/second-sexism-dont-judge-book-its-press
“The issues he highlights include military conscription and combat exclusions; male circumcision; corporal punishment, victimisation in violence and sexual assault, and discrimination in family and relationship disputes.”
I would add the issues of disproportionate men’s:
suicide,
(see: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/17/boys-cry-male-suicide-dean-windass )
homelessness, imprisonment, forced-labour,
Also of direct concern:
education, healthcare, shelters
just for a start.
Are we playing NWO bingo?
“There was no oppression of women in the past.” = “Women have never been oppressed!”
All in all, that last NWO comment was less hateful than usual, enjoying the nice weather NWO?
@hellkell – didn’t stalk anyone. Explained how I stumbled across The Bewilderness 3 times already, can’t be bothered to do so again.
Joe — have you been lurking the forum at all? You should read this post. I was never arguing that those things are not problems, I was arguing that feminism isn’t the cause of them (and is, in fact, a better solution than anything the MRM has to offer).
I’m not really sure why you directed that comment at me, but in any case, read that post.
Shorter Joe: “I have nothing of value to contribute to the actual subject of this thread, so I’m just gonna hijack this blog and force you all to talk about my issues.”
Joe, start your own blog and discuss any “important men’s rights issue” that you want. What do you have to say about Spearheaders who argue that the education of women is wrong and that fathers should maintain their authority over their daughters, whose ONLY purpose in the world is to be wives and mothers? Do you agree with this sentiment?
Joe, wouldn’t it be great to have a movement that worked on those issues, and didn’t focus on attacking feminists and/or women more generally? We could probably even find some common ground on many, if not all, of those things. Perhaps your energies would be better devoted to building that movement, rather than obsessing over what some obscure feminist blogs get wrong, and derailing discussions we’re having here.
Re: ‘moderate’ men’s rights I don’t know that I’d accept that description. I think it will take some strongly assertive efforts to make the kind of changes needed to help many men on the issues flagged above.
I stand by what I said about changes in geopolitical hegemony etc. the other day, but I’m not personally hoping for restablishment of the old kyriarchy* nor do I think even the most benign and compassionate man-friendly feminism** has the answers.
I do think men need to assert themselves and their rights as humans better… As well as looking out for each other more – e.g. especially when going through divorce when risk of men’s suicide soars
(*yes, I looked that term up today, I like it much better than patriarchy as it allows IMO for consideration of how many men are/were fucked over too. Also, it has a proper Greek root.
**the opposite end of RadFem’s must exist, surely, just through inevitable human variation)
Thanks for the derail, Joe. Got anything pertinent to add, or will this be a thread all about you?
Speaking of the OP, I guess I married down according to these clowns. I have a BS, Mr. HK only has an associates, and he’s not white. THE HORROR. Does it count if he makes more than I do though?
If it’s any help, way back when I once upon a time considered myself a “moderate” MRA, so it could just be that the moderates go to feminism like I did when they find out that “Oh, feminism wants to tackle men’s issues too, I didn’t know that.”
I could be wrong though, I dunno.
Joe, do you believe that women should not be educated but should be forced by the authority of their fathers to focus only on becoming wives and mothers? Because that’s what the quoted Spearheaders say above.
Well. If getting a degree as a woman is supposed to doom you to spinsterhood, I’d like to know where my husband is please.
Oh wait, I just remembered that I’ve never seriously wanted to marry!!
Also, men aren’t too eager to marry straight out of highschool as I recall. They seemed to want to get their lives set up the way they liked BEFORE getting hitched. In my school, there were only two highschool sweethearts that got hitched straight after class. Everyone else went to college or to work.
@ Hellkell – Does it count if he makes more than I do though?
That’s a good point in this whole “marry up” nonsense. Society has many ways of assessing status; as such what “up” and “down” mean varies greatly. It’s entirely possible for ‘both’ parties getting married to marry up or marry down, or both.
@The First Joe: You were a jerk about zie/hir, and now you’re sooooo worried about the rights of trans people? Give me a fucking break.
Hey, Crommunist posted. That’s cool.
In other news, oh my god. The guy I was dating when I was 18. He’s a good friend to this day, but good lord am I glad I wasn’t forced to marry him out of economic necessity. Because… oh my god. No. Hell, I was still convinced I was straight back then. That’s… yeah. No. Not the life partner for me.
He wouldn’t be too happy either, getting married at 22 to someone he was fundamentally incompatible with.* The Spearheaders would of course expect me to pretend to be his ideal woman for the rest of my life, so that he wouldn’t leave me penniless and unable to attract a new provider. Problem is, he’s always had this weird thing where he’s not a total assbag, which means he wouldn’t actually want to be in a partnership with a woman who was just pretending for his benefit. He’d want to make his partner happy too. So, bad news all around.
*Not that the Soearheaders are expecting 22 year old men to get married; they’re far too young. No, they’re planning to sell their 18 year old daughters to significantly older men than that.
MollyRen: Joe is completely full of shit, and I can’t speak for anyone else, but his brief forays into basic humanity aren’t offsetting the bullshit coming from him.
@blitzgal – I have no problem with girls and women being educated or teaching either.
I do think that boys have been badly neglected/ held back in education over the last 10 – 20 years, and that co-ed public school education now has too much of a bias towards girls and also towards feminist politics. I also feel that the pedo witch-hunt has driven far too many male teachers and potential male teachers out of the public school system.
I’m a teacher, but I’m self-employed and work mostly with adults (I insist on parental sit-ins for underage students, 12-15, no really. I don’t teach younger than that because my method was developed for adult learning, and young kids learn differently, in a less structured way).
I really don’t want anything to do with the state education system, which is crap for both teachers and students in many ways. Fear of false accusations is a big factor too. I remember being a kid at school, my peers were constantly saying things like “Mr X is gay! He was looking at us in the showers!” it was almost always spiteful BS of course – nowadays that would be enough to trigger a career and (possibly life) ending investigation.
I’m actually of the opinion that it would benefit both girls and boys to learn most stuff separately at school, thus allowing teachers to tailor lessons to the learning styles that work best for them*, with the co-ed part applying to break-times and (what should be) fun subjects like art, drama, music and home economics (hello, co-ed teamwork).
*yes, I know, everyone learns differently (I work 1-on-1), but there are ways of learning that most girls prefer and ways that most boys prefer… In an ideal world, kids would get to choose from two classes on the same subject and pick the one that is closest to their OWN learning style, but: money / bankstercorporatecronies stole the world.
“Looks like transphobia is a pretty big part of feminism to me.”
Ugh, if you’re going to make this argument, you have to realize that there are some trans people who are capable of huge misogyny themselves and say terrible things. Would you apply this same logic to them and say they’re *all* misogynists? No? Neither would I. Because some don’t represent all (an charge that is often projected onto this blog by MRAs, I can’t help but notice, trying to say it does the same)
@NWO women did what needed to be done in times past as they do today. They worked in mines, they worked in the fields, they cut wood, dammed rivers and did it all by the side of men or by themselves.
As for blacksmithing, that’s a trade that has changed little over the centuries. A Smith from any time in the past could walk into my forge and he would recognise and be familar with my hammers, anvil and fire. And the work has not changed much either. So explain to me why there are so many excellent women blacksmiths, everywhere, today? Do the google thing. It’s as much about aptitude and interest as grunt physical work. Women have muscles too.
Your version of history sounds like a little village from the misty regions of your mind.
I mean, isn’t this “women being married straight out of highschool” just making the very large assumption that pretty much every guy wants to get hitched immediately after graduating? And that men would in fact be forced to marry at that point?
I’d get screamed down for misandry if I pointed that out to MRAs though.
One of the many things I love about this blog is that Owly can post something stupid about blacksmithing and get a reply from an actual blacksmith. 🙂