JohnTheOther, blabby videoblogger and Number Two at A Voice for Men, has now weighed in with his own, slightly tardy, manifesto on the Aurora shooting and the evils of supposed male “disposability.” I didn’t read the whole thing – seriously, dude, OMIT NEEDLESS WORDS – but a few things stood out when I skimmed it. For example, this lovely passage, which seems to be a longer and fouler version of that ill-advised tweet from the Wall Street Journal’s James Taranto that I mentioned in my last post.
Our mainstream, which is to say, our corporate media – that which bends and fawns for access to the corrupt elected officials and modern robber barons of corporate statehood – is telling you, young man, that in order to be worthwhile, a real man, you’d better be prepared to die without complaint for the child, or the little old lady, or the drug addled slut in the next seat.
But Mr. TheOther is having none of it:
The instinct – expressing itself variously as chivalry or as fatal self sacrifice — is just one more that no longer has any discernable benefit. It is an encumbrance to any real pursuit of a civilized society in which one class of humans is not legally and socially elevated over another.
Sorry, kids; sorry, old ladies; sorry “drug addled sluts” — you’re on your own. Apparently, in a truly civilized society, no one ever looks out for anyone else. Altruism is for barbarians and Bill Bennett!
Here’s JtO’s stirring conclusion:
Those three men are not heroes, they’re just dead. The calculus of death, where one life is traded in celebration for another by preference of a vagina, is pathological and regressive. It must be recognized as the sickness it is. Those who lionized these men, whose fatal and unexamined instinct led to self-destruction; those who held them up as a heroic example to follow, are cordially invited to go first — or to go fuck themselves.
Charming as always, Mr. TheOther.
In the discussion of Mr. TheOther’s post in the Men’s Rights Subreddit, AVFM’s Paul Elam expands on the whole they aren’t heroes” theme, arguing that we need to retroactively strip away the hero status of the three men who died protecting their girlfriends — because they died protecting women.
Effie: Yeah, I still use male/female when I talk about troops, even my troops (it’s also the way the members of religious orders are referred to).
Having troops is probably the part of being in the Army I miss most. It’s why I understand some aspects of the “headship” ideas people like sunshinemary talk about.
But… if I abused my troops, or failed them, I had people to whom they could go to and complain. The “Headship people” answer only to God, and that’s horseshit. If I was wrong, I’d be removed.
But the sense of reciprocal trust/responsibility was something ineffable, precious beyond words.
Band of brothers shit, and all that; words which are perfectly true, and trite.
I was the one who said young, abled adults should protect children, people with disabilities, and the elderly. They are the ones most likely to need extra assistance when it’s dangerous.
Most of all, I think adults should protect children first. They have their whole lives ahead of them, and they are are not big and strong enough to fend for themselves during a disaster.
CassandraSays,
Amen.
Pecunium,
One glorious thing about the chain of command and military hierarchy is that’s based on experience and knowledge, not whether the person in charge has a certain set of genitalia. I was put in charge of troops because I’d been doing it longer, was demonstrably much better than they were at getting the mission done, and was accustomed to having my head in the game. I wasn’t in charge simply because of my vagina, in contrast to what Owly will probably say.
Being a traditional leader wasn’t so much my thing so much as being the technical expert. Don’t get wrong, I’m glad of the experience. I just preferred having the younger kids coming to me asking how things worked/were done and training them far more than I preferred having to deal with their leave/family/disciplinary issues.
I can’t imagine ever failing or hurting any of them. That would be violating a trust, and I can’t imagine breaking a promise like that.
Just because I need a mobility aid to walk doesn’t mean I don’t work, pay taxes, volunteer, give to charity, or support others, and it certainly does not mean I do not matter to others. In fact, I do all those things, and there are many folks on this planet who love me and whom I love dearly. I’m a workaday adult, same as millions of totally-able-bodied others, except that I don’t ambulate well.
The difference is that if someone opens fire on us in a crowded theatre, an able-bodied person can run or duck more easily than I can. Unless I whack them in the knees with my cane – and when they say stuff like “people who are disabled enough that it interfered with their chance of escaping generally don’t contribute as much to society,” I’m sorely tempted to do so.
But don’t worry; if your knees are broken, it’ll interfere with your chance of escaping, thus proving you’re not worth saving anyway!
@Noadi: I know of three people who are disabled; two live off of disability payments, have done so for most of their lives, and as far as I know, don’t really do much of anything with their not-working. The other works a crap job that anyone could do.
Now I have no doubt that some disabled people do contribute on some significant level, but this is (probably) usually in *spite* of their disability, not because of it. And many could do better if they weren’t disabled. And there are a lot of non-disabled people who waste their potential. But I strongly suspect that on the *average*, people who are disabled don’t contribute as much as other people. I suppose you could say that their existence provides jobs for people who help them, but I’m really not sure if that counts for much. Nor does it say anything about their inherent value. I was just wondering why it *seemed* like people some people (mostly not on this site) were saying that the disabled and elderly were somehow “worth more” than everyone except maybe kids.
At any rate, my only point was that if the circumstances happened to be such that trying to rescue a disabled person would make it more likely that two people would die rather than one or zero (and with physical mobility issues, that can come up in some situations – or for that matter, when a “normal” person is seriously injured as well) then the only reason why one would logically risk this is if the disabled person was somehow more valuable than the rescuer.
Obviously most people don’t act logically under extreme pressure, so that makes my point kind of moot anyway.
Obviously most people don’t act logically under extreme pressure, so that makes my point kind of moot anyway.
It doesn’t render your ableism moot, though.
….
I was going to snark this, but honestly? Please, please go learn something about the vast range of experiences included under the umbrella “having a disability” before you pontificate again on what it means to have one. Because the level of ignorance in a comment like this is astonishing, but it is something you can cure with learning.
DC-T: @Noadi: I know of three people who are disabled; two live off of disability payments, have done so for most of their lives, and as far as I know, don’t really do much of anything with their not-working. The other works a crap job that anyone could do.
unlike all those able-bodied people doing jobs anyone could do.
Unlike people who have some other form of income and don’t need to work.
Which makes them equal to Paris Hilton. Or anyone who did 20 years working for the Army/Navy/Marines/Air Force/Coast Guard.
Or served one day in Congress, or the Senate, or were appointed to any cabinet position.
What the fuck does employment have to do with the merits of a human being as a human being?
Would you be willing to say you were worth less if you were getting 2,000 a month for some reason?
I suppose you could say that their existence provides jobs for people who help them, but I’m really not sure if that counts for much.
And… the people who care for old folks? Those old folks are gonna die soon, just let them go.
And the people who clean houses, or change the sheets in hotels, or clean the toilets in movie theaters… not essential. They aren’t curing a cancer, or discovering that people can be allergic to insulin, or explaining some new aspect of quantum mechanics, or figuring out how to reverse anthropogenic climate change, so if they die… who cares?
I don’t know what Trolls you think you are countering… but the first thing I’d recommend; if you want us to take your nym with seriousness (at least the part past deranged)… stop being a dick.
You’ve managed to figure out everything about the global disabled population by observing three people that you know. Truly we must protect YOU with our lives above all else, that intellect is too important to humanity to lose!!
Wow, what the fuck. As an able bodied adult in an an emergency I would (I hope) try to help children, disabled people, and elderly people because they would probably need extra help not because of some contribution they make to society bullshit. They’re people, that’s enough of a reason. And also, fuck you ableist jackass.
Sharculese: this isnt quite true. what he actually believes is that the only acceptable place to look shit up is a 19th century encyclopedia britannica,
Not quite true. He thinks the only true source is the 1911 Britannica, which may be the finest single piece of scholarship ever done; in terms of scope and timeframe, but is woefully out of date in many ways, no matter how good it was then.
thanks pecunium, i had forgotten the exact details of that piece of slavelore
As the brother of a disabled woman who A) is on disability and B) works extremely hard raising two kids, fuck you.
And as someone who believes that that society has a responsibility to care for those who need it, “productive” or not, again, fuck you.
@Noadi:
You have no idea what I or my disabled partner go through to be productive members of society. As a disabled veteran I cordially invite you to go fuck a high-speed train with your face.
Uh, Effie, it wasn’t Noadi who said that, it was Deranged Counter-Troll.
I do apologize if I made look like Noadi said it. Didn’t mean to.
@Happy,
So…
MRA Martyr Thomas Ball shouldn’t be celebrated, by that logic?
I think their only objection is men dying to save other people. Dying to spite other people is still A-OK.
My deepest apologies, Noadi. I must learn to read more carefully.
Ahem.
Deranged Counter-Troll,
YOU I cordially invite to fuck a high-speed train with your face. I can recommend several, in fact.
@Effie – I think you mean the Deranged One should go fuck a high-speed train. I have a disability myself and agree with you 100%.
@Deranged One – Being the child of a Special Education teacher I know a few more disabled people than 3 and most of them work jobs, the rest are still wonderful people who contribute in non-economic ways by being better, kinder, more compassionate people than you will ever be, and all of them have people who love them.
I live every day with the fact that I will probably outlive my best friend thanks to the health problems she has that are trying to kill her. I know when that happens my life will be much poorer and her husband will be devastated they’ve been through so much in the 7 years they’ve been married. She’s only 30 and if she makes it to 40 she’ll be pretty lucky. I would probably die trying to protect her if it came to it, because that’s what you do for the people you love even if they aren’t “contributing” in the ways you approve of.
Not to be completely off-topic here, but Brave is, by rigorous empirical testing, still just as awesome today as it was five weeks ago when it came out.
What amuses me, for values of amuse that are really bitter humor, is that being disabled is something which can happen to anyone. I know that most of the presently able-bodied don’t really believe it, not at a concrete level, but it’s true.
If Effie doesn’t mind… I’ll be she never, in anything but an abstract way thought it could happen to her.
I didn’t. Even after I became disabled I didn’t really accept it. I’m rate 80 percent disabled. It’s sure as fuck not what I expected. It’s not dramatic, nothing blew a leg off… to look at me I’m fine.
But I’m not. I’m in pretty good shape, There isn’t, actually a whole lot I can’t do (mostly, endurance isn’t really what I’m good at any more. I’ll never be a competitive middle-distance runner again), but there is a lot I can’t do as well as I used to.
And none of that matters to the stupidity, the assholishness, the utter-fucked-uppedness of DC-T’s comments. People are worth it because they are people.
Because there isn’t any group which can’t be excluded as “worth less” because they aren’t like us; it’s just that disabled people are easy targets, because everyone thinks of gross,and apparent, ones, like parapalegia, deafness, blindness, amputees, those with Cerebral Palsy.
Well they are people. People like me. People like you. Do you have perfect pitch? Is your palate able to discriminate between white truffles and black?
No? Then you are, compared to those who have those talents, disabled.
So, unfuck you, very much.
I won’t be able to respond any more to the crapstorm I apparently just created (leaving soon, won’t have net access for a few days) so I’ll just say that I don’t counter trolls, I counter-troll trolls. Sometimes. Like fire with fire? Except deranged for acting like that would actually work. Anyway, at no point did I mention my own views on whether disabled people are actually more “valuable” than abled ones. Apparently people seem to think that “not more” automatically means “less”. In this case the neutral applies; my actual view is “don’t know, don’t care right now, so not gonna assume anything but say ‘equal’ by default if I absolutely have to assume something.”
Also, I believe that most “crap jobs” offer no actual benefit to society, neither socially nor economically; the only reason why they exist at all is because the current economic paradigm requires most adults to have a job in order for the economy to function, even if some of those jobs end up being just as destructive as they are constructive. There’s no reason for it to be that way other than old-fashioned BS about how things “should” work. So yeah, a lot of abled people don’t contribute much either.
Unless the problem here is that assuming that on the average they contribute less is the issue only because I’m a bad person for thinking that it’s true *even if* it turns out that it’s true. (If it’s wrong, then I will cop to using incorrect premises in the logic that came to that conclusion.) Okay then. I’m going to assume that cats on the average contribute less to domestic labor than dogs do. OMG I hate cats LOL what no I don’t actually think much about either kind of pet. I’m not ableist (probably not, anyway), I’m insensitive to everyone equally. Also, trolling.
(Again, if one must respond to this please do so for other people’s benefits rather than addressing me directly, because I won’t be online to respond for a few days)
Deranged: I’ll just say that I don’t counter trolls, I counter-troll trolls.
So you counter those who counter trolls. You are then an ally of trolls. That means you’re a shitbird.
Anyway, at no point did I mention my own views on whether disabled people are actually more “valuable” than abled ones.
Yes, you did. You said they were pointless leaches. You said it was a waste to help/defend them because they don’t contribute what the able bodied do.
Also, I believe that most “crap jobs” offer no actual benefit to society, neither socially nor economically;
Really? No one needs to sell things? No one needs to ship them? No one needs to cleam up the mess which gets made? No one needs to weed the crops? No one needs to pick them?
That stuff will just magically happen and everyone will be satisfied?
You are stupid.
I’m a bad person for thinking that it’s true *even if* it turns out that it’s true. (If it’s wrong, then I will cop to using incorrect premises in the logic that came to that conclusion.) Okay then. I’m going to assume that cats on the average contribute less to domestic labor than dogs do. OMG I hate cats LOL what no I don’t actually think much about either kind of pet. I’m not ableist (probably not, anyway), I’m insensitive to everyone equally. Also, trolling.
Yep, trolling. Because Cat do, actually have less in the way of contribution to the economy, because they haven’t been trained to find customs violations, or bombs, or people trapped in wreckage.
But the real thing is… you aren’t copping to anything. You’ve not shown any correct premises. You’ve asserted that the disabled ought to be left to their fate, because they aren’t as productive as the able bodied.
That’s your argument. You’re defense is shit. You say they have shit jobs, on average. Ok, but so does everyone else, so it’s not a valid argument, even if those jobs are worthless when done by able-bodied persons, because it doesn’t show them as “less productive”.
Barring a sudden fit of unexpected honesty, this isn’t being done for you, more to you.
Even as a troll, you fail, because you can’t hack the responses you came here to get.
So inept, as well as stupid.