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JohnTheOther: the Aurora heroes aren’t heroes. KEYWORDS: calculus of death, vagina, drug addled slut

Children: Not worth saving, apparently.

JohnTheOther, blabby videoblogger and Number Two at A Voice for Men, has now weighed in with his own, slightly tardy, manifesto on the Aurora shooting and the evils of supposed male “disposability.” I didn’t read the whole thing – seriously, dude, OMIT NEEDLESS WORDS – but a few things stood out when I skimmed it. For example, this lovely passage, which seems to be a longer and fouler version of that ill-advised tweet from the Wall Street Journal’s James Taranto that I mentioned in my last post.

Our mainstream, which is to say, our corporate media – that which bends and fawns for access to the corrupt elected officials and modern robber barons of corporate statehood – is telling you, young man, that in order to be worthwhile, a real man, you’d better be prepared to die without complaint for the child, or the little old lady, or the drug addled slut in the next seat.

But Mr. TheOther is having none of it:

The instinct – expressing itself variously as chivalry or as fatal self sacrifice — is just one more that no longer has any discernable benefit. It is an encumbrance to any real pursuit of a civilized society in which one class of humans is not legally and socially elevated over another.

Sorry, kids; sorry, old ladies; sorry “drug addled sluts” — you’re on your own. Apparently, in a truly civilized society, no one ever looks out for anyone else. Altruism is for barbarians and Bill Bennett!

Here’s JtO’s stirring conclusion:

Those three men are not heroes, they’re just dead. The calculus of death, where one life is traded in celebration for another by preference of a vagina, is pathological and regressive. It must be recognized as the sickness it is. Those who lionized these men, whose fatal and unexamined instinct led to self-destruction; those who held them up as a heroic example to follow, are cordially invited to go first — or to go fuck themselves.

Charming as always, Mr. TheOther.

In the discussion of Mr. TheOther’s post in the Men’s Rights Subreddit, AVFM’s Paul Elam expands on the whole they aren’t heroes” theme, arguing that we need to retroactively strip away the hero status of the three men who died protecting their girlfriends — because they died protecting women.

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aworldanonymous
9 years ago

Why is he still trying?

WordSpinner
WordSpinner
9 years ago

@ aworldanonymous

Owly used to show a complete disregard for the concept of “looking things up” and seemed to think it was elitest and/or stupid (he’s never been particularly coherent). He hasn’t been showing that side as much lately, though its certainly subtext.

aworldanonymous
9 years ago

And also, where does he come up with this stuff, I’ve always wondered if there’s some kind of conspiracy network, where someone convinces these people of things.

Sharculese
9 years ago

the list of things owlslave has been found to enjoy is in descending order

-insulting women on the internet
-taking care of his nieces and nephews
-star wars

the middle one he has to be weird about because it’s coded feminine and owlslave believes its literally a sin to go against his ideas of rigid gender coding, and sadly, there is a finite amount of star wars in the universe, sooo…. internet.

Sharculese
9 years ago

Owly used to show a complete disregard for the concept of “looking things up” and seemed to think it was elitest and/or stupid (he’s never been particularly coherent).

this isnt quite true. what he actually believes is that the only acceptable place to look shit up is a 19th century encyclopedia britannica, and if its not in there its not worth knowing

Sharculese
9 years ago

And also, where does he come up with this stuff, I’ve always wondered if there’s some kind of conspiracy network, where someone convinces these people of things.

http://www.infowars.com/
http://www.wnd.com/
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/

etc.

Freitag
Freitag
9 years ago

-insulting women on the internet

Or anyone he thinks is a woman. I came in for a “princess” put-down a bit upwards in the thread.

WordSpinner
WordSpinner
9 years ago

@ Sharculese

this isnt quite true. what he actually believes is that the only acceptable place to look shit up is a 19th century encyclopedia britannica, and if its not in there its not worth knowing

I must have missed that, but then again, there’s his incoherence.

creativewritingstudent
creativewritingstudent
9 years ago

NWOslave seems to like the word ‘princess’. It keeps cropping up in his foaming.

Falconer
Falconer
9 years ago

I swear, half of his posts drive me to nearly godwin the thread.

Eventually, he’ll froth in a full circle and come back around to puff-addering at filthy Jewesses.

For serious. Most times he rages about the Rockefellers, the “Rothchilds,” the Trilateral Commission, the Federal Reserve, and international bankers, all of which are or have been dogwhistle terms for Jews, but occasionally the mask will not so much slip as fall right off and he’ll start trying to gum Cliff’s ankles.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen Slavey interact with the Israeli fascist* who comes around every so often.

*Some people just learn entirely the wrong lesson.

cloudiah
9 years ago

That’s because we’re all pampered princesses (even the manginas) wearing silky lingerie and refusing to give up our seats on the bus to tired male manual laborers. Because no women do any real work. (Why are those princesses taking public transportation? That is a question that has not been answered to my satisfaction.)

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

Actually I’d rather talk to Mary. At least she’s new and we haven’t heard everything she has to say eleventy billion times before, like we have with Slavey.

Mary, why are you being so indirect? If you want to restate something that an MRA has said because you kind of agree with it, say so. This kind of sneaky attempted plausible deniability thing that you’re doing will just cause people to not take you seriously, which isn’t good if at some point you have a serious point that you’d like to make. Nobody likes disingenuousness.

On a different note, “drug addled slut”? Is JtO under the impression that every single woman in America is a junkie? The most charitable interpretation of that statement that I can come up with is that by “drug addled slut” he means “woman who is taking birth control pills”, and even then, not all women are taking them, and he has no evidence that any of the woman whose boyfriends saved them were doing so.

creativewritingstudent
creativewritingstudent
9 years ago

Maybe the princesses are taking public transport because of budget cuts? I mean, 3 billion state coaches are expensive and that money could be better spent elsewhere.

Sharculese
9 years ago

Is JtO under the impression that every single woman in America is a junkie?

probably?

Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
9 years ago

Mary, why are you being so indirect?

I’ll field that one.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/14713-eliminating-passive-aggressiveness/#JUMP3

Dani Alexis
Dani Alexis
9 years ago

(Why are those princesses taking public transportation? That is a question that has not been answered to my satisfaction.)

I just got a memoir in the mail for review. It’s by a former chauffeur to the Saudi royal family. Perhaps he’ll reveal why princesses are taking public transportation.

/silly
/but seriously I did get the book
/it comes out in October

aworldanonymous
9 years ago

Well I kind of figured infowars and stormfront, a lot of his shtick has Alex Jones written on it in huge metaphorical capital letters.

sthlivingincolor
9 years ago

But don’t we all have men to chauffeur us around? I thought that was part of the MALE OPPRESSION OMG

Deranged Counter-Troll
Deranged Counter-Troll
9 years ago

Well, I mostly get the thing about protecting kids, even though I don’t have any and probably won’t. And one’s lover/spouse/partner/etc., to a point, though the sentiment of “I’d rather be the one who was hurt or killed than you” seems rather selfish if the other person never had any input in this. (Though I do sort of get how that might *feel* selfless to the person doing it.) But I don’t get the sentiment of “protect the disabled and elderly” that some people seem to be expressing. I mean, yes, make their lives easier in general, help them out of danger if the risk to oneself is not too high, but why sacrifice oneself under such circumstances? Grandma might drop dead of a heart attack next week. People who are disabled enough that it interferes with their chance of escaping generally don’t contribute as much to society (yes, I know, they might be the next Stephen Hawking, but how likely is that?) and under some circumstances, heroically attempting to rescue them greatly increases the odds that two people will die instead of one. I mean, not hating on either of those groups, just not understanding why those people are worth *more* than a younger or more able-bodied person.

ShadetheDruid
ShadetheDruid
9 years ago

I mean, not hating on either of those groups, just not understanding why those people are worth *more* than a younger or more able-bodied person.

It’s not about them being “worth more”, it’s about them being less able or even unable to avoid bad things in a bad situation, especially if they already need help to do basic everyday things.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

The instinct to try to save others has nothing to do with who’s worth more (a fact that might help MRAs to calm down about the Aurora heroes, if they understood it). It’s more to do with perceptions of vulnerability and a person’s ability to save themselves. If I see an elderly person looking like they’re about to trip/fall on the bus, I rush over and try to catch them, not because I think they’re more worthy than I am, but because a fall can seriously injure an elderly person and their ability to catch and right themselves without falling is not as good as a young person’s is. Same with people who are visibly disabled – in a disaster decent people stop and try to help them because their ability to escape is not as high as an able-bodied person’s would be.

Where does this idea that it’s about deference and a ranking of some people above others come from? If anything the underlying principle is more “the strong must save the weak, because they’re strong”, which is about as far from “save this person because they’re worth more than you are” as you can get, given how most societies view people who they consider weak.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

Observe the gospel of Owly.

“Blessed be woman, who knows the thoughts of others. Thou art goddess.”

“Personally, I don’t think any of you actually believe it. I think everyone of you want’s to believe it.”

“Blessed be woman. For only truth falls from her lips. The gift of her wisdom and morals is truth. Pray to the goddess within all women. Amen.”

When a woman believes that she knows what he’s thinking, she’s a delusional liar who must be stopped. When he believes that he knows what a woman is thinking, he is of course correct, and it’s silly to suggest otherwise.

sthlivingincolor
9 years ago

And also, when you’re in a situation like a crowded theater and someone is shooting at you, I doubt very much that there’s any calculation going on as to who “deserves” to be saved. I’m sure it’s gut-level reacting that’s happening, not any kind of reasoning; my instinct in that situation would be to save my partner, not because he’s more “worthy” than I am, but simply because I love him.

Noadi
Noadi
9 years ago

@Deranged Counter-Troll – As someone with a disability: Fuck you. Most people with disabilities do pretty damn well at contributing to society, they hold jobs, raise families, and all the other things people who contribute to society do. One of the best professors I had in college was deaf, my uncle is developmentally disabled and while he can’t “contribute” in the way most can he brings a great deal of joy to everyone who knows him and his infectious good humor, the person who taught me the most about computers was in a wheelchair due to MS. All of these people are deserving of life and being protected even if you don’t see they have worth.

pecunium
9 years ago

Effie: Yeah, I still use male/female when I talk about troops, even my troops (it’s also the way the members of religious orders are referred to).

Having troops is probably the part of being in the Army I miss most. It’s why I understand some aspects of the “headship” ideas people like sunshinemary talk about.

But… if I abused my troops, or failed them, I had people to whom they could go to and complain. The “Headship people” answer only to God, and that’s horseshit. If I was wrong, I’d be removed.

But the sense of reciprocal trust/responsibility was something ineffable, precious beyond words.

Band of brothers shit, and all that; words which are perfectly true, and trite.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
9 years ago

I was the one who said young, abled adults should protect children, people with disabilities, and the elderly. They are the ones most likely to need extra assistance when it’s dangerous.

Most of all, I think adults should protect children first. They have their whole lives ahead of them, and they are are not big and strong enough to fend for themselves during a disaster.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
9 years ago

CassandraSays,

Amen.

Effie
Effie
9 years ago

Pecunium,

One glorious thing about the chain of command and military hierarchy is that’s based on experience and knowledge, not whether the person in charge has a certain set of genitalia. I was put in charge of troops because I’d been doing it longer, was demonstrably much better than they were at getting the mission done, and was accustomed to having my head in the game. I wasn’t in charge simply because of my vagina, in contrast to what Owly will probably say.

Being a traditional leader wasn’t so much my thing so much as being the technical expert. Don’t get wrong, I’m glad of the experience. I just preferred having the younger kids coming to me asking how things worked/were done and training them far more than I preferred having to deal with their leave/family/disciplinary issues.

I can’t imagine ever failing or hurting any of them. That would be violating a trust, and I can’t imagine breaking a promise like that.

Dani Alexis
Dani Alexis
9 years ago

People who are disabled enough that it interferes with their chance of escaping generally don’t contribute as much to society (yes, I know, they might be the next Stephen Hawking, but how likely is that?)

Just because I need a mobility aid to walk doesn’t mean I don’t work, pay taxes, volunteer, give to charity, or support others, and it certainly does not mean I do not matter to others. In fact, I do all those things, and there are many folks on this planet who love me and whom I love dearly. I’m a workaday adult, same as millions of totally-able-bodied others, except that I don’t ambulate well.

The difference is that if someone opens fire on us in a crowded theatre, an able-bodied person can run or duck more easily than I can. Unless I whack them in the knees with my cane – and when they say stuff like “people who are disabled enough that it interfered with their chance of escaping generally don’t contribute as much to society,” I’m sorely tempted to do so.

But don’t worry; if your knees are broken, it’ll interfere with your chance of escaping, thus proving you’re not worth saving anyway!

Deranged Counter-Troll
Deranged Counter-Troll
9 years ago

@Noadi: I know of three people who are disabled; two live off of disability payments, have done so for most of their lives, and as far as I know, don’t really do much of anything with their not-working. The other works a crap job that anyone could do.

Now I have no doubt that some disabled people do contribute on some significant level, but this is (probably) usually in *spite* of their disability, not because of it. And many could do better if they weren’t disabled. And there are a lot of non-disabled people who waste their potential. But I strongly suspect that on the *average*, people who are disabled don’t contribute as much as other people. I suppose you could say that their existence provides jobs for people who help them, but I’m really not sure if that counts for much. Nor does it say anything about their inherent value. I was just wondering why it *seemed* like people some people (mostly not on this site) were saying that the disabled and elderly were somehow “worth more” than everyone except maybe kids.

At any rate, my only point was that if the circumstances happened to be such that trying to rescue a disabled person would make it more likely that two people would die rather than one or zero (and with physical mobility issues, that can come up in some situations – or for that matter, when a “normal” person is seriously injured as well) then the only reason why one would logically risk this is if the disabled person was somehow more valuable than the rescuer.

Obviously most people don’t act logically under extreme pressure, so that makes my point kind of moot anyway.

ShadetheDruid
ShadetheDruid
9 years ago

Obviously most people don’t act logically under extreme pressure, so that makes my point kind of moot anyway.

It doesn’t render your ableism moot, though.

Dani Alexis
Dani Alexis
9 years ago

Now I have no doubt that some disabled people do contribute on some significant level, but this is (probably) usually in *spite* of their disability, not because of it.

….

I was going to snark this, but honestly? Please, please go learn something about the vast range of experiences included under the umbrella “having a disability” before you pontificate again on what it means to have one. Because the level of ignorance in a comment like this is astonishing, but it is something you can cure with learning.

pecunium
9 years ago

DC-T: @Noadi: I know of three people who are disabled; two live off of disability payments, have done so for most of their lives, and as far as I know, don’t really do much of anything with their not-working. The other works a crap job that anyone could do.

unlike all those able-bodied people doing jobs anyone could do.

Unlike people who have some other form of income and don’t need to work.

Which makes them equal to Paris Hilton. Or anyone who did 20 years working for the Army/Navy/Marines/Air Force/Coast Guard.

Or served one day in Congress, or the Senate, or were appointed to any cabinet position.

What the fuck does employment have to do with the merits of a human being as a human being?

Would you be willing to say you were worth less if you were getting 2,000 a month for some reason?

I suppose you could say that their existence provides jobs for people who help them, but I’m really not sure if that counts for much.

And… the people who care for old folks? Those old folks are gonna die soon, just let them go.

And the people who clean houses, or change the sheets in hotels, or clean the toilets in movie theaters… not essential. They aren’t curing a cancer, or discovering that people can be allergic to insulin, or explaining some new aspect of quantum mechanics, or figuring out how to reverse anthropogenic climate change, so if they die… who cares?

I don’t know what Trolls you think you are countering… but the first thing I’d recommend; if you want us to take your nym with seriousness (at least the part past deranged)… stop being a dick.

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

You’ve managed to figure out everything about the global disabled population by observing three people that you know. Truly we must protect YOU with our lives above all else, that intellect is too important to humanity to lose!!

Snowy
Snowy
9 years ago

But I strongly suspect that on the *average*, people who are disabled don’t contribute as much as other people. I suppose you could say that their existence provides jobs for people who help them, but I’m really not sure if that counts for much. Nor does it say anything about their inherent value.

Wow, what the fuck. As an able bodied adult in an an emergency I would (I hope) try to help children, disabled people, and elderly people because they would probably need extra help not because of some contribution they make to society bullshit. They’re people, that’s enough of a reason. And also, fuck you ableist jackass.

pecunium
9 years ago

Sharculese: this isnt quite true. what he actually believes is that the only acceptable place to look shit up is a 19th century encyclopedia britannica,

Not quite true. He thinks the only true source is the 1911 Britannica, which may be the finest single piece of scholarship ever done; in terms of scope and timeframe, but is woefully out of date in many ways, no matter how good it was then.

Sharculese
9 years ago

thanks pecunium, i had forgotten the exact details of that piece of slavelore

Dracula
Dracula
9 years ago

@Noadi: I know of three people who are disabled; two live off of disability payments, have done so for most of their lives, and as far as I know, don’t really do much of anything with their not-working. The other works a crap job that anyone could do.

As the brother of a disabled woman who A) is on disability and B) works extremely hard raising two kids, fuck you.

And as someone who believes that that society has a responsibility to care for those who need it, “productive” or not, again, fuck you.

Effie
Effie
9 years ago

@Noadi:

You have no idea what I or my disabled partner go through to be productive members of society. As a disabled veteran I cordially invite you to go fuck a high-speed train with your face.

Dracula
Dracula
9 years ago

Uh, Effie, it wasn’t Noadi who said that, it was Deranged Counter-Troll.

Dracula
Dracula
9 years ago

I do apologize if I made look like Noadi said it. Didn’t mean to.

captainbathrobe
captainbathrobe
9 years ago

@Happy,

So…

MRA Martyr Thomas Ball shouldn’t be celebrated, by that logic?

I think their only objection is men dying to save other people. Dying to spite other people is still A-OK.

Effie
Effie
9 years ago

My deepest apologies, Noadi. I must learn to read more carefully.

Ahem.

Deranged Counter-Troll,

YOU I cordially invite to fuck a high-speed train with your face. I can recommend several, in fact.

Noadi
Noadi
9 years ago

@Effie – I think you mean the Deranged One should go fuck a high-speed train. I have a disability myself and agree with you 100%.

Noadi
Noadi
9 years ago

@Deranged One – Being the child of a Special Education teacher I know a few more disabled people than 3 and most of them work jobs, the rest are still wonderful people who contribute in non-economic ways by being better, kinder, more compassionate people than you will ever be, and all of them have people who love them.

I live every day with the fact that I will probably outlive my best friend thanks to the health problems she has that are trying to kill her. I know when that happens my life will be much poorer and her husband will be devastated they’ve been through so much in the 7 years they’ve been married. She’s only 30 and if she makes it to 40 she’ll be pretty lucky. I would probably die trying to protect her if it came to it, because that’s what you do for the people you love even if they aren’t “contributing” in the ways you approve of.

Falconer
Falconer
9 years ago

Not to be completely off-topic here, but Brave is, by rigorous empirical testing, still just as awesome today as it was five weeks ago when it came out.

pecunium
9 years ago

What amuses me, for values of amuse that are really bitter humor, is that being disabled is something which can happen to anyone. I know that most of the presently able-bodied don’t really believe it, not at a concrete level, but it’s true.

If Effie doesn’t mind… I’ll be she never, in anything but an abstract way thought it could happen to her.

I didn’t. Even after I became disabled I didn’t really accept it. I’m rate 80 percent disabled. It’s sure as fuck not what I expected. It’s not dramatic, nothing blew a leg off… to look at me I’m fine.

But I’m not. I’m in pretty good shape, There isn’t, actually a whole lot I can’t do (mostly, endurance isn’t really what I’m good at any more. I’ll never be a competitive middle-distance runner again), but there is a lot I can’t do as well as I used to.

And none of that matters to the stupidity, the assholishness, the utter-fucked-uppedness of DC-T’s comments. People are worth it because they are people.

Because there isn’t any group which can’t be excluded as “worth less” because they aren’t like us; it’s just that disabled people are easy targets, because everyone thinks of gross,and apparent, ones, like parapalegia, deafness, blindness, amputees, those with Cerebral Palsy.

Well they are people. People like me. People like you. Do you have perfect pitch? Is your palate able to discriminate between white truffles and black?

No? Then you are, compared to those who have those talents, disabled.

So, unfuck you, very much.

Deranged Counter-Troll
Deranged Counter-Troll
9 years ago

I won’t be able to respond any more to the crapstorm I apparently just created (leaving soon, won’t have net access for a few days) so I’ll just say that I don’t counter trolls, I counter-troll trolls. Sometimes. Like fire with fire? Except deranged for acting like that would actually work. Anyway, at no point did I mention my own views on whether disabled people are actually more “valuable” than abled ones. Apparently people seem to think that “not more” automatically means “less”. In this case the neutral applies; my actual view is “don’t know, don’t care right now, so not gonna assume anything but say ‘equal’ by default if I absolutely have to assume something.”

Also, I believe that most “crap jobs” offer no actual benefit to society, neither socially nor economically; the only reason why they exist at all is because the current economic paradigm requires most adults to have a job in order for the economy to function, even if some of those jobs end up being just as destructive as they are constructive. There’s no reason for it to be that way other than old-fashioned BS about how things “should” work. So yeah, a lot of abled people don’t contribute much either.

Unless the problem here is that assuming that on the average they contribute less is the issue only because I’m a bad person for thinking that it’s true *even if* it turns out that it’s true. (If it’s wrong, then I will cop to using incorrect premises in the logic that came to that conclusion.) Okay then. I’m going to assume that cats on the average contribute less to domestic labor than dogs do. OMG I hate cats LOL what no I don’t actually think much about either kind of pet. I’m not ableist (probably not, anyway), I’m insensitive to everyone equally. Also, trolling.

(Again, if one must respond to this please do so for other people’s benefits rather than addressing me directly, because I won’t be online to respond for a few days)

pecunium
9 years ago

Deranged: I’ll just say that I don’t counter trolls, I counter-troll trolls.

So you counter those who counter trolls. You are then an ally of trolls. That means you’re a shitbird.

Anyway, at no point did I mention my own views on whether disabled people are actually more “valuable” than abled ones.

Yes, you did. You said they were pointless leaches. You said it was a waste to help/defend them because they don’t contribute what the able bodied do.

Also, I believe that most “crap jobs” offer no actual benefit to society, neither socially nor economically;

Really? No one needs to sell things? No one needs to ship them? No one needs to cleam up the mess which gets made? No one needs to weed the crops? No one needs to pick them?

That stuff will just magically happen and everyone will be satisfied?

You are stupid.

I’m a bad person for thinking that it’s true *even if* it turns out that it’s true. (If it’s wrong, then I will cop to using incorrect premises in the logic that came to that conclusion.) Okay then. I’m going to assume that cats on the average contribute less to domestic labor than dogs do. OMG I hate cats LOL what no I don’t actually think much about either kind of pet. I’m not ableist (probably not, anyway), I’m insensitive to everyone equally. Also, trolling.

Yep, trolling. Because Cat do, actually have less in the way of contribution to the economy, because they haven’t been trained to find customs violations, or bombs, or people trapped in wreckage.

But the real thing is… you aren’t copping to anything. You’ve not shown any correct premises. You’ve asserted that the disabled ought to be left to their fate, because they aren’t as productive as the able bodied.

That’s your argument. You’re defense is shit. You say they have shit jobs, on average. Ok, but so does everyone else, so it’s not a valid argument, even if those jobs are worthless when done by able-bodied persons, because it doesn’t show them as “less productive”.

Barring a sudden fit of unexpected honesty, this isn’t being done for you, more to you.

Even as a troll, you fail, because you can’t hack the responses you came here to get.

So inept, as well as stupid.