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Men’s Rights Redditor: “The cougar phenomenon is perverse. Yet we criminalize sex with fertile women who haven’t passed some arbitrary age limit.”

Fresh from the Men’s Rights subreddit,  some thoughts from some dude called atiwywr on cougars, age of consent laws, and Justin Beiber.

So “cougars” are perverse, but pedophilia – sorry, ephebophilia — is natural and good?

The age of consent in most American states is 16.

Complaining that men can’t legally have sex with girls – sorry, “fertile women” – aged 15 and younger: Men’s Rights activism at its finest!

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darksidecat
8 years ago

Ah, MRAs confusing teenage girls with women again…the vast majority of people fan obsessing about Bieber when he was fourteen were about the same age…that’s teenager girls being attracted to a teenage boy, not grown ass adults going after kids.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

The MRM: Complaining about how women only like Alpha males because biotruth one minute and complaining about how cougars are unnatural because biotruth the next.

Apparently the only good women—sorry, females—are adolescent girls because biotruth.

aworldanonymous
8 years ago

Don’t forget the helpings of evo-psych they like to eat with their biotruth.

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

Pretty sure most Bieber fans are fourteen years old themselves.

But once again, the MRA paradox–they bring up Bieber-lust to justify themselves doing something they consider equivalent… then condemn Bieber-lust as proof of women’s evilness!

GOD DAMN IT YOU CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS ALL THE TIME.

CL
CL
8 years ago

Good old MRM logic, equating ‘looking at pictures of’ to ‘having sex with.’

CayVoo
CayVoo
8 years ago

As a representative “cougar”, I can tell you that Justin Bieber is as sexy as Pull-Ups.

scarlettpipistrelle
8 years ago

Where does this thinking lead? Remember Warren Jeffs, Prophet of the FLDS, having group sex with a number of his wives, with the star of the show being a teen bride? Here’s the transcript: http://media.gosanangelo.com/media/static/Audio_Recording.pdf Here is a little more description of the context and setting of the transcript: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2022139/Warren-Jeffs-trial-Heavy-breathing-sex-tape-3-wives-including-bride-12.html

cloudiah
8 years ago

This reminds me of this r/mr thread, where a redditor posted a picture that was supposedly of an adult woman’s Bieberophilia at work, that turned out to just be someone’s prank on a co-worker.

Also, putting up pictures of Taylor Lautner is child pornography.

The more ridiculous comments have lots of downvotes now, but the initial responses when I first saw it were pretty positive.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

Good old MRM logic, equating ‘looking at pictures of’ to ‘having sex with.’

atiwywr actually seems to think the former is worse than the latter, where the former is pictures of Bieber pre-18 and the latter is sex with 14 year-old girls.

YES ATIWYWRYAKLJF TELL THOSE PERVERTS OFF

Bonus: the OP to which ati is saying “good” is that telegraph article which Mary Suenshine gave as an example of a bitter spinster talking about her bitter spinsterness.

grampmk
grampmk
8 years ago

This kind of thinking can and rightly so land a man in jail for a long time. In the US a person is a legal adult at 18, except in Alabama, , Mississippi, Nebraska and Wyoming, where it is 21. Dating any girls/women is a recipe for disaster.

Denise
Denise
8 years ago

It is “quite unnatural for women to be attracted to much younger men”? Really? Better tell my fella that I’ve been lying to him for the past 2 years.

whataboutthemoonz
8 years ago

“Dating any girls/women is a recipe for disaster.”

How does this have anything to do with the rest of what you just wrote? It’s almost as if you throw out some thinly veiled attempt to stay on topic before falling back to trolling. I liek unicorns.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

grampmk — First, the legal age for consent is 16 in a lot of states. Second, at least some of the MRM isn’t much over 21 themselves. Third, yes, wanting to have sex with people below the legal age is creep-tastic, doing it is illegal, but please refrain from saying that thinking something will land one in jail, we get enough accusations of thoughtcrime already.

General question — is 21 really the age of majority anywhere? I thought it was 18 in all 50 states since like, the Vietnam war.

On topic — duuuude Bieber pics from a magazine? That were published and thus probably aren’t obscene? Magazine pics =/= sex! (Obvious fact is obvious)

Vitamin D
Vitamin D
8 years ago

Good god, do they realize teenage pregnancy can lead to some serious health complications and hinder the physical development of these kids? Biology isn’t all ‘we can, therefore we should’.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

“Biology isn’t all ‘we can, therefore we should’.”

Yeah now might be a time for one of my favorite rebuttals for idiocy — just because you can doesn’t mean you should. (Also obvious, if you’re over the age of like 5, and heck, even by 5 most kids get things like “don’t touch the stove”)

whataboutthemoonz
8 years ago

You can also give me $160,000 to stick a dildo up your ass. You can. Doesn’t mean you should.

random6x7
random6x7
8 years ago

Vitamin D, and that fact kind of rebuts their whole thesis, doesn’t it? If it’s perfectly natural for grown men to want to sleep with girls under the age of 15, we should’ve evolved fully-developed early and pre-teens by now. If pregnancy is biologically damaging for an entire age group, then it’s probably not biologically appropriate for them.

Leum
Leum
8 years ago

@Argenti: I think in some states the age of consent for gay sex may be (or was prior to Lawrence v Texas) 21, but not for straight sex.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Leum — ah ok, that makes sense (well, depending how you define “makes sense”), those laws would have to be mooted by Lawrence though I’d think. Wiki’s the worst source ever for legal questions, but —

Lawrence invalidated age of consent laws that differed based on sexual orientation. The day after the Lawrence decision, the Supreme Court ordered the State of Kansas to review its 1999 “Romeo and Juliet” law that reduces the punishment for a teenager under 18 years of age who has consensual sexual relations with a minor no more than four years their junior, but explicitly excludes same-sex conduct from the sentence reduction.[53] In 2004, the Kansas Appeals Court upheld the law as is, but the Kansas Supreme Court unanimously reversed the lower court’s ruling on October 21, 2005,[54] in State v. Limon.[55]

From here.

Thank you for giving me something I could actually google!

BigKitty
BigKitty
8 years ago

MRAs, like most rightwing loonies and fundamentalist religionists, really love the idea of human sexuality as identical to animal sexuality, despite their righteous insistence that Evil Others (liberals, feminists, secular humanists, etc.) “want Our Children to rut like animals111!elebenty!

Think about it: first, there’s the creepy MRA fixation on “fertility.” Lots of 12-year-old girls just got their first period – well then, by MRA standards, they’ve officially become breeding stock, middle school/My Little Pony doll collections be damned!

Human sexuality stopped being exclusively about “fertility” at around the same time humans developed such effete liberal characteristics as “language” and “agriculture.” In other words, sex started to become much more about human connection and much less about breeding at around the same time our hominid ancestors turned into Homo Sapiens. MRAs need to figure this out, and then shut the f**k up!

In other interesting news, only animals stop wanting sex when they are no longer fertile. Humans, on the other hand, continue to be interested in sex long after reproduction is an option, because humans experience sex as much, much more than a biological imperative. Old ladies – not just Hot Cougars like me (LOL!), who have sex with younger men, but REALLY old ladies in nursing homes, fall in love with REALLY old men in their assisted living houses, and have sex with their lovers. (And LGBT elders fall in love with each other and have sex with each other, too.)

And just because you personally don’t want to visualize an old couple having delightful sex together, doesn’t mean that old people having sex is gross. It just means that you are deficient in empathy and imagination. (You DO realize that, unless you die young, you too will one day be old and frail and wrinkly? Do you also realize that when that day comes, you will still be a human being with all the regular characteristics that come with the human package, including sexual feelings?)

mayfly
mayfly
8 years ago

It is quite natural for men to be attracted to much younger women, but quite unnatural for women to be attracted to much younger men.

[citation really needed]

God, these dudes sure love fake evolutionary psychology nonsense, don’t they?

aworldanonymous
8 years ago

Considering I’m possibly going to be starting a psychology degree in September, I suppose it would be useful to know just how much of evopsych is baloney, if not all of it.

Nanasha
Nanasha
8 years ago

I started masturbating when I was 5. I was not ready for sex. In fact, I did not really feel “ready” until I was 18, in a relationship with someone who made me feel safe, and even then, my first time was kind of scary because I had to get all the “supplies” (birth control pills, condoms etc) together without being able to ask my (prudish) parents. Intra-personal sexual exploration (ie: enjoying your own body) is totally normal for kids, and even when you’re developing secondary sex characteristics, it doesn’t mean you are READY RIGHT NOW. Nor does it mean that just because you have an orifice that it means auto-consent for someone else to stick their genitalia in it.

In fact, “readiness” for sex is not an age- it’s all about where your head is at, and I can honestly say that many people who start having sex with at a young age are generally only doing it because someone is pressuring them to do it.

It makes me angry that raping/molestation of young teens or children by predatory men is seen as “normal” because of the whole bullshit “young people are hot to men biology” thing, and the “corollary” is supposed to be women who are older (late 30’s/early 40’s) who are dating guys in their 20’s at the youngest.

While it’s still sucky if the relationship dynamic is predatory, there’s a HUGE difference between dating a 20 year old (no matter how old you are) and dating a 12 year old.

random6x7
random6x7
8 years ago

aworldanonymous: pretty much all of it. They’re just-so stories that people make up to explain what are usually cultural phenomenon. For instance, you could just as easily say that women are naturally attracted to younger men because they have healthier sperm and are better hunters due to their physical fitness. Or that men should prefer older women who have already proven their fertility and their ability to raise a child past infancy. Ev psych people also tend to conflate human and non-human sexuality even though, as BigKitty says, they tend to be vastly different. Finally, their “experiments” tend to be either torturing the numbers in other people’s experiments or handing a bunch of questionnaires to their undergraduates to answer for extra credit. They are not exactly well set up.

whataboutthemoonz
8 years ago

Isn’t evopsych responsible for (paraphrase) “kinky sex because rats”?

random6x7
random6x7
8 years ago

whataboutthemoonz, was that Calhoun’s rat experiments? I don’t know much about that, except from what I read on cracked.com and Wikipedia, but at least he did real experiments. Lazily deciding that that means that humans are kinky because there’s 7 billion of us would be right in line with ev psych, though.

RubyHypatia
RubyHypatia
8 years ago

No one is celebrating older women looking at pictures of a 14 year old Justin Beiber. In fact, I’ve never heard of older women doing that.

And agreed, just because a female is fertile, it doesn’t mean her body is ready to handle pregnancy, or that she’s emotionally ready for child rearing. I feel so sorry for all the girls throughout human history who died in childbirth because some pigs wanted them before they were finished growing. I’m sure it still happens today in some Muslim countries. Marriage, sanctioned by God, even if the girl is 13. It’s sickening!

kiki
kiki
8 years ago

Yes, 13-year-old girls never get pregnant in the West, and even if they do, it’s Not As Bad(TM) because they’re not married, plus ew! Muslims!

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

First, add islamaphobia to Ruby’s growing list of prejudices; you might want to try reading scarlettpipistrelle’s links about FLDS. Second —

“No one is celebrating older women looking at pictures of a 14 year old Justin Beiber. In fact, I’ve never heard of older women doing that.”

Who the fuck cares as long as we’re discussing pictures that met publishing standards? “Looking at pictures of” could be as innocent as flipping through one’s daughter’s magazine or something FFS.

cloudiah
8 years ago

Okay, David, I’ll promise to spam you when I see this stuff! 🙂

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

Yeah!! Did you hear about that Muslim sect in Utah!! FLDS or something.

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

*shakes fist at Argenti* 😀

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Shadow — I’m an androgynous ninja, no shame in getting ninja’ed by a ninja 🙂

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

Aaahhh, but I’m the Nightcrawler, so it’s a point of honour!! 😀

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

…iirc X-men properly, Nightcrawler can basically plane shift? Haku does similar using ice…that’d be on interesting fight.

pecunium
8 years ago

BigKitty : Human sexuality stopped being exclusively about “fertility” at around the same time humans developed such effete liberal characteristics as “language” and “agriculture.”

I’m going to point out that these two events are not at all close to each other in time.

The disconnect between fertility and sex came we don’t know when… probably about the time we stopped having estrus.

There are a lot of theories as to why that happened. As a bit of a free-thinking person I tend to favor the “aquatic theory”.

whataboutthemoonz
8 years ago

I’m a mermaid.

aworldanonymous
8 years ago

I’m a capsuleer…

random6x7
random6x7
8 years ago

My favorite theory about losing estrus revolves around the “humans are secretly bonobos” idea. Alas, I doubt we’re quite that omnisexual as a species, although you never know.

Sharculese
8 years ago

How does this have anything to do with the rest of what you just wrote? It’s almost as if you throw out some thinly veiled attempt to stay on topic before falling back to trolling. I liek unicorns.

im pretty much on the record of not being a fan of gramp, but i think in this case ‘girls/women’ was a poorly worded attempt to describe young women on the cusp of adulthood, not a blanket condemnation of dating

Myoo
Myoo
8 years ago

This really shows how the MRAs thought process works, doesn’t it? Ignoring the fact that the scenario they’re envisioning is mostly bullshit (I say mostly because I’m sure there’s some creepy women out there who are going after children) they don’t want to stop it, they want to do it too.

“What those women are doing is evil and disgusting and its unfair that WE don’t get to do it too!”

Anon
Anon
8 years ago

Hoe dare men find women over the age of 15 sexy, let alone those over (ahem!) 40. The horror!

Sharculese
8 years ago

I’m sure it still happens today in some Muslim countries.

it happens in non muslim countries, too dummy.

BigKitty
BigKitty
8 years ago

You’re absolutely right about agriculture and language happening very far apart; however, I do believe it is well-accepted that our hominid ancestors stopped having estrus WAY before “hominids” became “homo sapiens.”

whataboutthemoonz
8 years ago

“[T]hey don’t want to stop it, they want to do it too.”

I feel like this is basically every problem in the MRM.

WordSpinner
WordSpinner
8 years ago

The “when did humans lose estrus” thing is the kind of situation that gives biologists looking at phylogenetic trees (basically family trees for species) headaches, because it could go one of two ways: one, our common ancestor with chimps and bonobos had already lost estrus, and chimps gained it back sometime after the split from bonobos, or two, humans and bonobos separately lost estrus. I think looking at the genes controlling estrus, which we don’t know what they are, would be the way to solve this.

(For reference: if we’re using the metaphor of a family, bonobos and chimps are siblings, humans are cousins to both, and gorillas are second or third cousins to the three species.)

Deranged Counter-Troll
Deranged Counter-Troll
8 years ago

So when do they think a woman becomes a “cougar” anyway? I’ve seen some corners of teh intarwebs where people seem to think it’s at about 30, and most 30-year-olds have a decade or two of fertility left in them.

Also, the 21-year-old thing being a full adult seems to be due to the fact that many states don’t allow full adult rights until that age, though mostly this is about drinking. (Only mostly, though. For example, barring certain exceptions, you can’t marry in Mississippi unless you’re at least 21.) Even so, I don’t think there’s anywhere in the US where people don’t get nearly of the adult rights – and certainly all of the ones absolutely necessary to function as an adult – by age 18.

RubyHypatia
RubyHypatia
8 years ago

You guys sure like to read more into my posts than what’s in them.

Over 600 laws in the Old Testament, yet not one to protect 13 year old girls from being forced into early marriage and childbirth. So put me down as an anti-semite for that statement? And if I bring up Warren Jeffs, does that mean I hate Mormons? Hven forbid I mention that early marriage is a problem in Islam. Mohammad did marry a 9 year old, did he not?

Sharculese
8 years ago

You guys sure like to read more into my posts than what’s in them.

WAAAAAAAH. we accurately point out the subtext in your dumb bullshit. WAAAAAAH.

stop whining about the fact that people see through you.

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