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creep-shaming misogyny MRA oppressed men PUA rapey reddit vaginas virginity

In the wake of the tragedy in Aurora, Men’s Rights Redditors take a brave stance against “vagina-pedestaling” and “creep shaming.”

Picture from the AdultFriendFinder profile of James Holmes.

In the wake of the shootings in Aurora Colorado, pickup guru Roosh “No Means Yes” Valizedah quipped on Twitter: “I bet $100 the shooter was getting no play.” The implication being: had the shooter been trained in the fine art of “game,” and thus presumably scoring with women, the massacre would never have happened.

There are a few problems, to say the least, with Roosh’s crass comment, one of the most obvious being that training the sort of person who becomes a mass murderer in a set of manipulative techniques of sexual aggression in which a woman’s “no” is treated as “last-minute resistance” seems a little less than wise. Best case scenario? He becomes a serial rapist rather than a mass killer.

The other obvious problem is that it suggests the murders are, in a way, the fault of women for not paying the shooter more attention. The logic here is abuser logic: if you gals don’t put out for awkward nerds, there will be hell to pay, and the blood will be on your hands.

Yesterday, someone calling himself Throwaway72212 brought Roosh’s “meme” to the attention of the Men’s Rights subreddit. His concern? That this kind of “vagina-pedestaling” (!) from pickup artists makes sexually frustrated men look bad; it’s a “virulent form of creep shaming.”

Yeah, really. Apparently the true victims here are “creep-shamed” dudes.

Here’s his whole post, which at the time of this writing had gotten 204 upvotes and 74 downvotes from the r/mensrights masses:

Some highlights – by which I mean lowlights — from the discussion.

TommyGun991 took aim at Big Vagina and what he sees as its enablers in the PUA community:

Leylen decided to attack the hypothetical women sending hypothetical love notes to the shooter:

MauraLoona, meanwhile, found a possible silver lining in all this: Maybe it could be used to argue for the legalization of prostitution!

Men’s Rights Redditors: Always looking at the big picture.

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Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

I actually kinda agree with throwaway dude? I would nod along to every one of his points except for the implication that society normally treats women like men’s salvation. But other than that:

1. I wouldn’t use “creep-shaming,” because that’s ridiculous, but it is virgin-shaming and masculinity-enforcement, and it is unfair to guys who get no “play” but aren’t mass murderers.
2. Yeah, implying a woman could’ve “saved” this guy does imply women are something other than ordinary people.
3. Factually true–lots of horrible murderers haven’t lacked for sex.
4. Yeah, and it’s goddamn disgusting how PUAs come out of the woodwork to say “if only he’d learned Game” every time a man commits a conceivably-sexually-motivated crime.

So… I’ll pretty much take that dude’s side on this one.

Roosh, Tommygun, and Leylen are definitely still full of shit.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

I kind of wonder where the Dalai Lama fits into the whole “men need sex to be happy and productive members of society” model of reality.

AlexB
AlexB
8 years ago

I actually think he has a point? I mean, points 1 and 4 are pretty solid. Apart from the bit where he used the ridiculous phrase “creep-shaming.” And, of course, “vagina-pedestaling.” Because you can’t be an MRA without signing some kind of secret pact to torture the language till it screams.

Point 2 is just… almost fascinatingly reasonable. Women are people! Vaginas are just a body part! These are excellent points that MRAs are generally incapable of understanding. I mean, the bit where “men are in dire straits” is weird but overall, good work, Weirdly Reasonable MRA.

Point 3 is stupid, of course. He’s completely misunderstood the Genghis Khan thing which is that everyone who was alive at the time of Genghis Khan who has present day descendants is an ancestor of some ridiculously high percentage of the world’s population, because math. And more to the point if he believes Genghis Khan was a pussy magnet he hasn’t got even a rudimentary understanding of consent.

That’s almost a relief. Finding a reasonable MRA would have really shaken my worldview. But still, he’s better than the usual. The people responding to him are as contemptible as the general run of MRAs.

Of course he’s ignoring all the misogyny in the idea to concentrate on how it harms men, but even non-MRAs miss that. And he’s actually right that it does harm men. Sexually frustrated virgins (of either sex) don’t deserve to be stigmatized.

AlexB
AlexB
8 years ago

eh, ninja’d much more concisely by Cliff.

HelloDangerGirl
HelloDangerGirl
8 years ago

I also think Throwaway has some valid points about women being just people and not blaming women for men’s bad behavior. What is interesting to me is when it’s dressed up in MRA language, those ideas get overwhelmingly positive responses. Were a feminist to suggest these things using feminist or non-MRA language, the ensuing shit-storm would be incredible.

Citizen Justin
Citizen Justin
8 years ago

For the record, the woman in the AdultFriendFinder profile photograph is a famous glamour model in the UK, and needless to say she has been ‘photoshopped’ into the picture.

opium4themasses
opium4themasses
8 years ago

I seriously wonder about throwaways thoughts on feminism. Some of his points are dangerously close to seeing the complememtary double standards which gender roles create.

I dislike his framing, but “Sex is over-emphasized.” could be a nice point of overlap.

LeftWingFox
LeftWingFox
8 years ago

What? People disagreeing with David about the mockworthiness of targets? THAT NEVER HAPPENS!

Srsly, love this place. 🙂 And I agree with Cliff and Alex. It’s like this guy has had the moment of clarity where “Hey, this definition of masculinity hurts men too!” and then charged off yelling “Come on guys, let’s make sure this only hurts women from now on!”

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I’m actually not surprised that some MRAs are pushing back against PUA, because PUA makes any movement look bad. Look at our friend Eurosabra – he epitomizes the PUA belief system in all its cult-like glory, and I’m pretty sure that most MRAs think he’s as pathetic as we do, even if it’s for different reasons. But really, PUA and MGTOW are positions that are impossible to reconcile no matter how much pretzel logic you use – at some point, those two positions are going to come to a head, because they can’t coexist within the same movement.

So to a certain extent, yay? Because PUA is despicable any way you look at it. But then, as others have pointed out, there’s the Genghis Khan thing. Which makes me wonder if the guy who wrote that is agreeing with the PUA position that all that matters is that a man gets his dick wet and whether it’s via consensual sex or rape makes no real difference in terms of how the guy feels about himself, or if he’s trying to critique that position. It’s possible that he’s trying to critique the idea that how much sex a man is getting determines whether or not he goes postal in general, which is indeed a sexist idea that makes men look very bad.

aworldanonymous
8 years ago

Cliff said exactly what I was going to say far better than I could have ever imagined putting it in a million years. So there’s nothing I can really add here, yet again… it’s really no fun being 18 in a commentariat full of people who have degrees and tons more knowledge than you do.

Eurosabra
Eurosabra
8 years ago

You have to say my name 3 times. Three.

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
8 years ago

aworldanonymous: Heh. I suggest just diving in with a willingness to be wrong.

Having said that, I was having similar thoughts and decide to wait to see what other people thought, because sometimes I’m spectacularly wrong. 😛

Hank
Hank
8 years ago

Much as there is some sense in what the young man says I’m pretty sure that once the dust settles on this PUA/MRA disagreement they’ll all shake hands and agree it was women who are at fault. It’s about the only thing they can all agree on.

garvan
garvan
8 years ago

Wait…

Did Mr. Futrelle just say a mass murderer is better than a serial rapist?

I guess this is why Mr. Futrelle is okay with promoting feminism.

pillowinhell
8 years ago

Annnnddd…if I were a sexually frustrated man, with enough venom to be looking for targets, and presumably thought women were at fault for my not having enough sex, I don’t think I’d look to target a midnight showing of Batman.

I mean, I don’t remotely understand what’s going through the head of a mass murderer, but surely the more rational thing to do would be to target a group with a higher ratio of women in it? He was shown to be very rational in all other aspects of planning, so I don’t think sexual frustration had much to do with it.

I’ll just say that the reporting of this incident is a massive media fail, and adding sexual frustration as a motive is not helping at all. We have his “loner” status, his apparent “madness” etc etc…these things are designed to paint him as a loser type, rather than help people understand why a person would choose such a route.

whataboutthemoonz
8 years ago

So is there an established connection with the Batman movie, or was it just a “movie-theaters-have-more-people” thing?

valerienorth
valerienorth
8 years ago

Yeah, Bill Maher tried this same thing a long time ago. I can’t remember who it was he was talking about. Maybe Timothy McVeigh? Can’t remember but it’s as stupid now as it was then.

howardbann1ster
howardbann1ster
8 years ago

@whataboutthemoonz

Too soon to say, but my initial speculation based on early reports is that he timed his attacks to coincide with gunfire/explosions onscreen, to maximize confusion and give himself more targets who didn’t realize they were under attack. So it seems more like the latter. But anything’s possible.

marc2020
marc2020
8 years ago

Gonna have to concur with Cliff and others here and say that I to don’t see anything wrong with throwaway dudes comment except for some problematic language.

Yeah thats really all I have to say.

aworldanonymous
8 years ago

I’ll just say that the reporting of this incident is a massive media fail, and adding sexual frustration as a motive is not helping at all. We have his “loner” status, his apparent “madness” etc etc…these things are designed to paint him as a loser type, rather than help ponies understand why a pony would choose such a route.

I hate when society does this, mainly because I have social anxiety so I know how it feels when you’re painted as a “loner”. All throughout high school people thought I was a creep because I was too shy to go up and talk to anyone, It fucking sucks, but it never drove me to murder. People being socially ostracized and people becoming murderers are mutually exclusive things, and while there may occasionally be overlap, correlation does not imply causation. I am a perfectly well adjusted, if cripplingly shy, individual, and I don’t appreciate people assuming that I’m going to murder them just because I’m afraid to talk to them in real life.

whataboutthemoonz
8 years ago

Re: loser = killer thing

I think people have it backwards. There’s this assumption that if you’re a loner then you’re more likely to be a violent criminal, but if you’re a violent criminal (or so inclined, anyway), then aren’t people less likely to want to spend time with you? Having the potential to be a violent person is a (just one of many) reason why someone might be a loner.

speedlines
speedlines
8 years ago

As yet, there is no information to support the idea that this crime was in any way sex-related. Roosh is full of shit.

LeftWingFox
LeftWingFox
8 years ago

So is there an established connection with the Batman movie, or was it just a “movie-theaters-have-more-people” thing?

From whatI’ve read, Holmes had his hair dyed and called himself The Joker. Given that his hair was dyed red, rather than green, it’s likely that his attachment to the Joker was superficial at best.

TheMcGee
TheMcGee
8 years ago

whataboutthemoonz,

I think your take on it makes a lot of sense. Also, from what I have read and the reports I have heard, this guys plot would have taken a decent amount of planning. It seems that isolation/loner status would be required to create the plan and take all the necessary steps to implement it rather than the other way around (i.e., he was isolated which makes it possible so, why not?).

So, for sure, I think it could be a combination of a proclivity toward violence (or something) which results in the initial isolation and then later cultivating that isolation in order to carry out whatever plans he made without interference.

But then again I don’t really have a good understanding of why people who do things like this. So I guess I’m just adding my own speculation to the heap.

TheMcGee
TheMcGee
8 years ago

LeftWingFox,

I heard that bit about the Joker as well (and that he had yelled out something about being the joker), and then read elsewhere that that was refuted and he was wearing all black tactical gear with a gas mask (and he didn’t say anything about the joker).

I had also heard (but it might totally just be speculation, it’s not like I have some incredible source) that the theater was possibly chosen just because it was so crowded, dark, and was a scenario that would allow for a greater potential for harm to the people there…along the same lines as what someone said earlier about coordinating the attack to explosions in the film to create confusion….

But I do agree with the sentiments of others that the reporting in this has been terrible. There’s way more opinion and speculation than fact reporting. And because it’s a huge deal on the internet (esp., with the Batman tie in) it seems like every little opinion or piece speculation is flying around the web through tweets, statuses, etc., and then some sites report the rumors as if they were fact. So, yeah, lots of misinformation.

Fembot
Fembot
8 years ago

So, Roosh is responsible for the photoshop?

BASTA!
BASTA!
8 years ago

I kind of wonder where the Dalai Lama fits into the whole “men need sex to be happy and productive members of society” model of reality.

He doesn’t, and that doesn’t invalidate the model, just as the fact that Dalai Lama has been materially supported by a religious organization for his entire life doesn’t generally invalidate the “men* need to work to earn their daily bread” model.


* Guess.

kristinmh
kristinmh
8 years ago

@pillowinhell good point. Maybe he was euthanising other male nerds destined like him to suffer and die for lack of pussy?

…I feel dirty just writing that.

I know that when faced with an inexplicable horror people try to interpret it in the light of their belief system. So a Christian will chalk it up to lack of belief in Jesus, a Buddhist to insufficient enlightenment, and. Communist to workers still not controlling the means of production. (I know there aren’t exactly a lot of communists around, but I do know one and.OMG HE DOES THIS ALL THE TIME.) So since these dudes immediately jump to Lack of Pussy as the proximate cause of the shooting, I guess that means their primary belief system is “I do not get laid enough and that is not just a bummer but a CRIME WHO DO THESE BITCHES THINK THEY ARE”.

Not *surprising* news.or anything, but you know.

pillowinhell
8 years ago

Basta, you are correct on one modality of living does not necessarily invalidate another.

I don’t mind that there are guys who want sex or more of it. I do mind when a small group of men demand that they get sex, act like its absolutely essential to their existence and spew hateful shit about the very people they are demanding sex from.

While everyone has the right to enjoy sex with a partner, no one has the right to demand sex with any one individual.

pillowinhell
8 years ago

Kristin, I refuse to speculate. Whatever the reason is that he chose this course of action, it will never compute that he chose to kill a huge group of people who were likely completely unaware of his existence and therefore innocent of any wrongdoing to him.

It might be different if he belonged to a politically or religiously repressed group, but on the surface at least, it doesn’t appear so. Also, in North America, there are other ways of changing the culture and instituions beyond the shock value of killing. Its a slow process and requires a great deal of work and stamina. Especially if the issue you are fighting is entrenched in society. In that case, you may not see significant change in your lifetime.

Sitting here as a fairly privileged person, I can’t imagine what that is like.

kristinmh
kristinmh
8 years ago

I don’t particularly want to speculate either, pillowinhell, I was just trying to follow Roosh’s “logic”, such as it is :-/

pillowinhell
8 years ago

The only “logic” to Roosh and others like him is that its a weak attempt to justify their own shitty behavior. With a story like this they can tell the woman they are with “See, I’m treating you better than that!”. Its also a very passive agressive scare tactic they hope will bend women to their wishes.

pillowinhell
8 years ago

Annnd over on the Spearhead, the guys are talking about how fast the girlfriends of three men (who died protecting them) will be moving onto the next cock. They are giving it a week.

Some are charitable to say several months, but really the only way these women could commemorate their herioc boyfriends would be to wear mourning and never date again.

doctornic
8 years ago

Every time I think I’ll need to rage quit the Internet I come here and see reasonable and sensible discussions happening (well, mostly – not counting the obvious exceptions here) and I walk a away feeling a little bit better about everything.

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
8 years ago

This movie premier is one of the few places a person could go in that particular garb and not be questioned.

Nanasha
Nanasha
8 years ago

Well, first off, we don’t even know if he was heterosexual.

Secondly, he targeted a random swath of people in an audience, not a single gender, such as a women’s shelter or other place where gendered violence would be a likely motivating factor.

Thirdly, his level of planning and detail would seem to be indicative of someone who was very deliberate and organized, not a hotheaded explosion of rage and revenge.

Fourthly, there is no other evidence that “lack of sex” had anything to do with his actions.

So, MRAs, maybe you should just shut the hell up before you hurt yourselves by trying to do so many complicated mental maneuvers to blame every bad thing on women.

2-D Man
2-D Man
8 years ago

aworldanonymous said:

People being socially ostracized and people becoming murderers are mutually exclusive things, and while there may occasionally be overlap, correlation does not imply causation.

This is a bit of pedantry, but you’ve incorrectly used the phrase “mutually exclusive”. It means that there is no overlap and there never can be. In this case it would imply that anyone who’s ever been ostracized would never go on to become a murderer and that all murderers had never been ostracized.

2-D Man
2-D Man
8 years ago

Well, first off, we don’t even know if he was heterosexual.

Actually, I think the picture he posted on Adult Friend Finder is a pretty good indicator of that.

Falconer
Falconer
8 years ago

Apropos of nothing, I just saw an ad on YouTube about a series premier of something called “Alphas” on SyFy.

The tagline was something like, “super, but human.”

My first thought was that, man, but the MRAs would flip their shit.

Leeloo Dallas Multipass

I was gonna say “you know, aside from a few things, most of that’s not too bad”, but a whole bunch of other people already said it better. Oh, well.

Blue Jean
Blue Jean
8 years ago

Annnd over on the Spearhead, the guys are talking about how fast the girlfriends of three men (who died protecting them) will be moving onto the next cock. They are giving it a week.

I wonder what the MRAs would say about Stephanie Davis, who helped save the life of her friend, Allie Young?

eline
eline
8 years ago

I’m with Cliff & others in thinking the Throwaway dude actually had some points there. Even if his reasonings are different, I do agree on the points. But I’m glad it was brought up here. Even if Manboobz is mainly about mockery it’s refreshing to read something positivish coming from the MRA crowd and since I don’t do Reddit I would miss it otherwise.

pillowinhell
8 years ago

They won’t be happy unless an equal number of women died trying to save their boyfriends.

They will however, talk about how boys are taught to throw their lives away. Not saying that there isn’t some of that, but it was three men out of how many in the theater?j

aworldanonymous
8 years ago

@ 2-D Man

Thanks for the correction, I wasn’t sure quite which words to use to put what I was trying to say properly.

Nanasha
Nanasha
8 years ago

@2D- being sexually attracted to women does not necessarily mean that you are attracted to women exclusively. He could be bisexual or pansexual. There is no real way of knowing. And his sexuality is a red herring at best.

donnadiva
8 years ago

Howard Stern blamed 9/11 on the terrorists’ probable inability to get laid while they attended US colleges.

Little Mousling (@LittleMousling)

I wonder what their thoughts are on the guy who reportedly ditched his baby under a seat and ran while the baby’s mom saved both kids?