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Things I learned from Reddit: Feminists can’t be atheists. Also, they shouldn’t ever try to translate ancient Greek.

Things I learned on Reddit today.

1) From a_weed_wizard in the Men’s Rights subreddit, I learned that feminists cannot be atheists:

GirlWritesWhat agrees:

I’m not sure where those downvotes came from, since everything GirlWritesWhat says is by definition true.

2) From AskHistorians, I learned that feminists trying to correctly translate ancient Greek are evil man-hating monsters. Check out the downvotes on EggyMc!

Obviously, she’s retranslating with malice aforethought!

In this case, it’s easy to tell where at least some of the downvotes are coming from:  A link on the Men’s Rights subreddit.

MRAs: protecting ancient Greek history from MISANDRY since 2012!

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Cliff Pervocracy
Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

Apparently feminism is a religion because it means you believe, uh, women exist?

Huh. I guess I’m a fanatical believer.

Also, of course, anything pro-woman (and for that matter factually accurate) is “sexism against men.” Sigh. It’s not even shocking any more.

Freitag
Freitag
8 years ago

Joanna
8 years ago

Everything makes men look bad! Except MRAs!

Tabby Lavalamp
8 years ago

I’m an atheist and I’m a feminist. Therefore… I don’t exist. MIND BLOWN!

Cliff Pervocracy
Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

Well, changing the translation of that bit of the Iliad does make men (er, male gods) look worse. It doesn’t make them look bad.

It changes them from “stone cold badasses who had total charge of their women and no emotional vulnerability” to “characters with some emotional vulnerability, who were not immune to manipulation.” Which ought not to be humiliating–in the real world, these are very common, human things, and not signs of weakness. If you care about other people, you’re not immune to manipulation.

But because it makes the male gods less perfect, in MRA eyes that’s the same as making a laughingstock out of those dumb gullible men.

scrapemind
8 years ago

A feminist article of faith is that “people are fucking different” so there aren’t any statistical tendencies of men to be one way and women to be another, or if there are sex differences, they are caused by ignorant sexists constructing them by saying that they exist, and they will disappear after the revolution.

Dracula
Dracula
8 years ago

I don’t need to take “people are fucking different” on faith. I’ve met people before. They’re not all the same.

clairedammit
clairedammit
8 years ago

scrapemind, your argument is just that xkcd comic all over again.

GingerSnaps
GingerSnaps
8 years ago

“so there aren’t any statistical tendencies of men to be one way and women to be another”

You got it.

katz
8 years ago

and they will disappear after the revolution

LMAO

Ruby Hypatia
Ruby Hypatia
8 years ago

So gender equality is religious dogma? Nope. I’m a feminist with no religion.

Cliff Pervocracy
Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

A feminist article of faith is that “people are fucking different” so there aren’t any statistical tendencies of men to be one way and women to be another, or if there are sex differences, they are caused by ignorant sexists constructing them by saying that they exist, and they will disappear after the revolution.

There are statistical differences between men and women! However:

1. That does not prove these differences are innate. Society can create statistical differences in many areas. Of course girls raised with family, school, media, and/or peers telling them “girls are bad at math” won’t be as good at math! That doesn’t prove that girls are naturally bad at math.

2. The size of the statistical differences tends to be massively overstated and misunderstood. If boys are 3% better at a certain math test (fake number for example purposes), there’s still a giant overlap–there’s still lots of girls who are better at math than lots of boys. It’s not like every boy is 3% better than every girl.

3. You have to cite the specific statistics relevant to the difference you’re claiming. Saying “it’s been proven that there are some differences, therefore women are all programmed to want money and men are all programmed to want hot teenagers” doesn’t wash. If you can prove one stereotype has a grain of truth, that doesn’t prove that all stereotypes are true.

hieropants
hieropants
8 years ago

Meanwhile, back in the reality-based universe, atheism and feminism are natural allies considering the vast majority of sexism and misogyny these days either has its roots in or is directly propagated by theological nonsense. I don’t understand why anyone would want to distance themselves from people who are willing to fight for the same goals, although I guess I can understand why those who just want to consider themselves smarter than everyone else would make up any reason they could think of to keep others out of their smart people club.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

“…or if there are sex differences, they are caused by ignorant sexists constructing them by saying that they exist, and they will disappear after the revolution.”

You might want to look into this thing called “socialization”, unless we’re back to blank slate theory, which I would’ve sworn died out about a century ago now.

Anna
Anna
8 years ago

Meanwhile, back in the reality-based universe, atheism and feminism are natural allies considering the vast majority of sexism and misogyny these days either has its roots in or is directly propagated by theological nonsense.

I dunno, I think armchair evopsych is starting to give it a run for its money 😉

Rutee Katreya
8 years ago

I’m an atheist and I’m a feminist. Therefore… I don’t exist. MIND BLOWN!

I know a whole bunch of women who just stopped existing, yo.

@GWW:
What you don’t know about atheism and feminism would fill a warehouse or 3. I mean, even on the jackass meter, this ranks. As lame as this gambit is, the correct way to apply it is to say that you can’t be a feminist and a skeptic. Feminism isn’t a god, and thus can not directly conflict with atheism; there are atheists who think Bigfoot and aliens are real,a fter all. Neither is a good, so they remain atheists

clairedammit
clairedammit
8 years ago

If you define religion as having faith, and define having faith as believing that something is true, then no one is an atheist. Which is obviously bullshit.

Rutee Katreya
8 years ago

I dunno, I think armchair evopsych is starting to give it a run for its money 😉

I’ve never seen non-armchair evopsych. Also, considering the attacks on abortion rights and bodily autonomy for women, no, not in practical terms.

lowquacks
lowquacks
8 years ago

Meanwhile, back in the reality-based universe, atheism and feminism are natural allies considering the vast majority of sexism and misogyny these days either has its roots in or is directly propagated by theological nonsense. I don’t understand why anyone would want to distance themselves from people who are willing to fight for the same goals, although I guess I can understand why those who just want to consider themselves smarter than everyone else would make up any reason they could think of to keep others out of their smart people club.

Societies have been pretty uniformly religious from the beginning of recorded history. The same is true of sexism. It doesn’t actually follow that the two are related, though: Reddit and the People’s Republic both have a high level of both atheism and sexism.

If religious people are being sexist, the problem isn’t the theism, it’s the sexism.

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
8 years ago

Criminy! The words matter. That word, atheist, does not mean what they think it means.
Another Inego Montoya moment brought to us all by the abuser lobby.

Anna
Anna
8 years ago

I’ve never seen non-armchair evopsych.

Well, I’ve seen all the complaints that ‘proper’ evopsych is being misrepresented by the just-so-story variety. I can’t say I’ve looked into it enough to be able to comment and I’m not particularly inclined to.

However I think it’s pretty telling that the proponents of the ‘serious’ evopsych focus their ire on the victims of the misogyny and racism of the armchair variety, instead of the people who are misrepresenting their supposedly valid discipline. I don’t get that.

Also, considering the attacks on abortion rights and bodily autonomy for women, no, not in practical terms.

Eh, maybe my UK bias is showing here; we’re pretty secular (for all our problems) and don’t have a religious right with the power and influence they do in the US (if that’s where you are, I don’t know)

lowquacks
lowquacks
8 years ago

Also, most atheists have articles of faith. Just because those articles of faith aren’t “I believe in the truth and/or relevance and/or holiness of this religious text or tradition” doesn’t mean they’re not articles of faith.
You don’t become some Vulcan-type Purely Rational Being if you don’t believe in any god, and being a Vulcan-type Purely Rational Being wouldn’t make you a better person even if it were possible.

Rutee Katreya
8 years ago

Well, I’ve seen all the complaints that ‘proper’ evopsych is being misrepresented by the just-so-story variety. I can’t say I’ve looked into it enough to be able to comment and I’m not particularly inclined to.

They are lying. The reason there is no non-armchair Evopsych is because they never put their money where their mouth is; they don’t run fitness trials. That’s what developmental biologists do. The two disciplines are very similar on the surface, except developmental biology then tests its claims on what is evolutionarily adaptive.

hieropants
hieropants
8 years ago

Societies have been pretty uniformly religious from the beginning of recorded history. The same is true of sexism. It doesn’t actually follow that the two are related, though: Reddit and the People’s Republic both have a high level of both atheism and sexism.

I’m aware that sexism and religion have existed in various semblances since the beginning of humanity. I’m aware that some religions are less sexist than others. I’m saying that today, in the modern world, sexist practices and institutions are the direct result of (today’s, modern) religious justifications. Sexist atheists are sexist because they pick up on the sexism of the rest of the culture without thinking about where those modes of thinking came from, either because they don’t think they’re susceptible to subconscious bigotry or they don’t want to let go of the advantages sexism gives them. But the most damaging forms of misogyny – the legal subjugation of women & their bodies, the cultural acceptance of owning women/children – that’s (currently, today) coming from religion.

WordSpinner
WordSpinner
8 years ago

@ Rutee–I think you probably mean evolutionary biology or evolutionary developmental biology. Developmental bio is all about how an organism turns from one cell into many specialized cells, and so it isn’t about evolution per se (though it does have evolutionary implications–that’s what evolutionary developmental biology is). But yes, you are correct–evolutionary biology do test that a modification is and adaptation, i.e. that is beneficial to the organism and has been selected for (and is not just a random effect or a legacy of the past). And that is really, really hard to do, especially for anything concerning human cognition/social structure because culture gets in the way.

(For example, one cognitive quirk in humans–and IIRC other species–is that if you get sick hours after eating something you won’t want to eat that food any more, which is a violation of how conditioning usually works. It is probably adaptive, for obvious reasons, but that would be very hard to find good evidence for. Culturally-based responses are even harder.)

Arielle Shander
8 years ago

How can they misunderstand the definition of “atheist,” when all it means is “a lack of belief in a god or gods”? I’m a feminist. I’m also an atheist. They’re totally compatible.

lowquacks
lowquacks
8 years ago

But the most damaging forms of misogyny – the legal subjugation of women & their bodies, the cultural acceptance of owning women/children – that’s (currently, today) coming from religion.

That’s coming from misogyny. I know it’s fun to have a group of those people to blame, but sexism’s pretty universal, god or no.

blitzgal
8 years ago

And Weed Wizard gives absolutely zero evidence or even a single example of feminist “articles of faith” that preclude us from being atheists. He just said a big bunch of nothing.

Maniacal Goblinoid Nightmare Woman
Maniacal Goblinoid Nightmare Woman
8 years ago

So..Hera’s bloke Zeus…
Eating a woman (or mystical Greek Titan) before knowing she’s conceived, then, 9 godly months later, having a fully formed goddess born, via axe-to-the-head delivery – is probably exactly the kind of reproduction these guys are aiming for.
No shared parental duty, no babies and an opportunity to to flout all that caring midwifery shit with some macho jerkwad axemanship….makes their “artificial womb” plan look a bit cack now really…

And the first dude can piss off as well.
Presumably this is just what happens in a country that has stoners, but no decent, reality based, documentaries on science and history.
Shame really…he might have noticed that the campaign for women’s equality only really started up after the maternal mortality rates dropped from something insanely high (about 40% in cities with poor areas?), when it turned out that once “dying prematurely in child birth” stopped being a fair* reason to end a woman’s education, the only thing now
preventing it was…well, misogyny after 10,000 years or so of patriarchal rule.
He might even have seen some about what effects industrialisation and mechanical weapons (that anyone, of any class and any level of upper body strength) did to past society’s concepts of masculinity and body counts on the battle field.

Aww come on! Man doesn’t even need documentaries (books, schools etc) to look into it. He’s got Disney and weed. At some point he’s gotta notice that all the animated girls’ mum’s are dead and start drawing together a few connections…please…for fuck’s sake.
I despair.

* I say “fair” but not in a the “balanced, sane and reasonable” sense. Mean “fair” by the standards of a society as short sighted and competitively hierarchical as ours. That society is not one that’ll “waste” it’s resources educating girls that’ll then probably just go on to die in labour…

nwoslave
8 years ago

@Cliff Pervocracy
“Apparently feminism is a religion because it means you believe, uh, women exist?

Huh. I guess I’m a fanatical believer.”

So before feminism women didn’t exist? Were they figment’s of mens imagination? I hope you didn’t rush to be the first to post something incredibly stupid.
————
“Once our idea of female gender roles gets past the 1950’s scholar’s fear of women and their sexuality then we will finally see some honest history.”

I’ve noticed this being said quite often these days, the, “fear” of womens sexuality. It isn’t really the fear “of” womens sexuality, it’s more the fear of how detrimental to a society it is to allow women to devolve down to their base animal instinct of acting like animals in heat at their leisure in public. All the while of course keeping men’s animal instinct of acting like animals in heat on a short leash.

The problem of course being the expense, manpower and willingness to continually protect women who are doing everything in their power to sexually arouse men and tempt men into acting on that arousal.

So the fear of womens sexuality is really the fear that men will devolve down to the same level of animalistic behavior displayed by women.

If EggyMc actually knew anything about honest history, he/she would’ve know the cycle of decayed, dying empires. At the pinnacle of every empire/civilation they become debauch and tolerate, promote and publicly glorify every form of sexual perversion. After that, that civilization crumbles quite swiftly.

hieropants
hieropants
8 years ago

That’s coming from misogyny. I know it’s fun to have a group of those people to blame, but sexism’s pretty universal, god or no.

Sexism is universal. Female subjugation isn’t. Support for women’s rights is highly correlated with secularism.

Rutee Katreya
8 years ago

That’s coming from misogyny. I know it’s fun to have a group of those people to blame, but sexism’s pretty universal, god or no.

>>Patriarchal institutions that are outright religious structures exist and are major things in a lot of the world.
>>Aiming for Tu Quoque rather than trying to play up matriarchal, more gender equal cultures, however sidelined they may be.

Make your points better.

Steele
Steele
8 years ago

Religion is in most cases becoming far less patriarchal and even identifying with feminist dogma in many cases:

http://www.avoiceformen.com/men/men-and-patriarchy-in-the-church/

Cliff Pervocracy
Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

Religion is in practice sometimes (okay, often) sexist.

The concepts of belief and worship are not INHERENTLY sexist in any way.

“Sexism would go down if people followed non-sexist religious practices” is just as legitimate an alternative as “sexism would go down if people were all atheists.”

lowquacks
lowquacks
8 years ago

@hieropants

Yeah, remember when the Soviet Union went from being pioneers of legalised abortion to entirely banning it because of all that religious influence on politics?

/@hieropants

I’ve noticed this being said quite often these days, the, “fear” of womens sexuality. It isn’t really the fear “of” womens sexuality, it’s more the fear of how detrimental to a society it is to allow women to devolve down to their base animal instinct of acting like animals in heat at their leisure in public. All the while of course keeping men’s animal instinct of acting like animals in heat on a short leash.

Translated from the NWOslave, I’m pretty sure this reads “REALLY BAD THINGS are going to happen if women wear clothes I don’t approve of, or don’t wear clothes, trust me (also there are no clothes I approve of) “. Would that be one of those awful feminist translations, or am I going alright here?

lowquacks
lowquacks
8 years ago

@Rutee, @hieropants

Yeah, that was a poor point and a lazy shot, and I’m sorry to hieropants for arguing in poor faith there. Cliff’s post above mine expressed what I was trying to get across far more eloquently than I did.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

It never stops amazing me that NWO can accuse feminists of having a hateful view of men and at the same time make it clear that he thinks that being a rapist is a natural part of men’s nature. It’s like it doesn’t even occur to him that he’s depicting men in an extremely negative light.

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

@Steele “Religion is in most cases becoming far less patriarchal and even identifying with feminist dogma in many cases:”

Holy shit did a MRA just admit that some things are actually or used to be patriarchal? I think that might be a first.

Freitag
Freitag
8 years ago

…to allow women to devolve down to their base animal instinct of acting like animals in heat at their leisure in public.

Where does this happen, because I seem to have missed the show.

Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

Poor Zeus! Constantly being false rape accused when common sense would indicate he couldn’t be a goose or a shower of gold coins, and now it turns out his wife is super manipulative. Zeus is so oppressed.

Rutee Katreya
8 years ago

“Religion is in most cases becoming far less patriarchal and even identifying with feminist dogma in many cases:”
You realize that that article was pretty firmly drubbed down just here, right? It’s hilariously wrong.

http://manboobz.com/2012/06/22/a-voice-for-men-christianity-is-all-about-hating-on-dudes/

Silly boys XD XD XD

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

Also, Steele, that article is not arguing that the Church is becoming less patriarchal, but that it was never pariarchal at all. The argument is that Christianity has been misandric from at least the days of St. Augustine, if not earlier. It goes so far as to argue that the fact that the belief that Jesus was celibate was misandry.

Possibly by accident, you actually ended up with a much more reasonable, albeit still wrong, position than the article you cited as your source.

You might want to step up your reading comprehension game, even if you have given up your dream of being a writer.

ozymandias42
8 years ago

Lowquacks: Err, I’m an atheist, and I don’t really have articles of faith. (I guess, since I don’t believe in objective morality, my morality could be considered one…? But even then I’m just saying that I would like to live in a world where the maximum number of people are happy and will take action to make this world come about, both of which I do have evidence for.) I try to only believe things I have evidence for, and if I believe something without evidence I consider it less “faith” and more “making a mistake.” Could you elaborate on what you mean?

NWO: I AM WEARING A FIREFLY SHIRT AND BAGGY JEANS FEAR MY UNLEASHED SEXUALITY

Ugh
Ugh
8 years ago

*patriarchal

cloudiah
8 years ago

I love how Steele thinks (a) a link to an AVfM post counts as evidence of something, (b) doesn’t even check to see that we already fisked it, and (3) gets the point of the AVfm post completely bass-ackwards. This is what keeps me coming back here — this, and the animal videos.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Oh, great, now Steele is bringing his brand of stupid to multiple threads.

Dracula
Dracula
8 years ago

It’s like it doesn’t even occur to him that he’s depicting men in an extremely negative light.

The cynic in me tends to believe he knows damn well that’s what he’s doing. He might play dumb when he’s called out on it, but he obviously wants women to be afraid.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I don’t think that it occurs to him that women being afraid of men is a bad thing that makes men look bad, though. He seems to think that women fearing men is an excellent thing.

Dani Alexis
Dani Alexis
8 years ago

and being a Vulcan-type Purely Rational Being wouldn’t make you a better person even if it were possible.

As a devoted follower of Surak, I would take offense at this statement, were I in the habit of indulging emotional outbursts. Which I am not. *raised eyebrow*

(It’s okay if this joke fails, because this comment doesn’t exist, having been written by a feminist and atheist.)

Ithiliana
8 years ago

Re: atheism and feminism allies.

Only very rocky ones as the whole Elevatorgate plus recent debates show–I think some of the atheist groups in the US are changng (American Atheists have a good sexual harassment policy)–but the ‘natural’ alliance isn’t there, and there is a strong and vocal minority who are downright misogynistic. (Erm, been reading over at freethoughtblogs.com, can heartily recommend a number of them!)

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