Sorry to return so quickly to the fetid mind of MRA blabologist JohnTheOther, but, well, you’ll see why I have.
Here is Mr. TheOther in AskReddit, responding to the question “Women of Reddit, how do you feel about cumshots?” (No, he is not strictly speaking a “woman of Reddit,” not like that’s going to stop him.) Enjoy the irony of the A Voice for Men second banana rehashing, apparently with utter sincerity, an argument once set forth, rather infamously, by a feminist fellow named Hugo Schwyzer. And enjoy the also-very-special response from fellow MRA SuicideBanana, whom we met earlier in the week.
I know Mr. TheOther is concerned about people “quote mining” comments, and presenting them out of context, but in this case, there is no further context. His comment, which I have presented unedited in screenshot form, isn’t in response to any other comment; it’s simply an answer to the question I alluded to above. Mr. TheOther does respond to SuicideBanana’s remarks about him being an advocate and facilitator of violence, as you can see if you clicky click here, but sheds no more light on the issue of porno cumshots as a “pseudo-mystical representation of the sexuality of the viewer.”
You know, the idea of sex being a chore or not fun in some way really isn’t only a “straight” thing. Just wanted to put that out there. People can be pressured or coerced into sex whether or not they’re queer or straight.
I’ve noticed in a lot of hetero porn that the man is basically passive, and it’s up to the woman to bend herself into all sorts of positions and make a lot of noise. A lot of porn doesn’t even have a cum shot, and the man doesn’t even have an orgasm. I hate that! And I hate that it teaches men that it’s the woman’s job to get herself off, and if she can’t come in five minutes in every position possible, then there’s something wrong with her.
I don’t think that chore-sex is a heterosexual thing, but I do think that it’s easier for folks who have non-normative sexual lifestyles to be less likely to fall into those ruts simply because they come into it from a place outside that dichotomy.
Of course, that’s kind of one thing that puts me off about a lot of alternative communities, especially the kink community. I hear a lot of people into BDSM being all “our sex is better and more REAL than vanilla sex” or “our sex is the PERFECTEST sex and you are missing out” kind of crap.
There’s also those of us who prioritize mind-blowing, perfection sex as being lower on our list of needed things in our lives to be safe, happy and generally satisfied with things.
Sure, I’d love it if my husband played into my sexual fantasies and did those sexy things that I’ve told him many times that I really enjoy but he always seems to forget and telling him to do it in the heat of the moment turns me right the hell off…and possibly initiate sex more because I seem to do it all the damn time because he’s so lethargic and lazy.
But I really love his cooking. And the way that he smells after a shower. And his kindness. And how involved and loving he is with our daughter. And the fact that he’s really my best friend ever.
And as far as I’m concerned, the sex part is negotiable.
I honestly think that a lot of people act like everything has to be The Most Perfect Ever for things to work, but sexually, I have a vibrant fantasy life, and the sex I have is good enough and never involves things that I hate or that hurt me. So it’s not something that I consider being a non-negotiable for ME personally. And no, my husband is much more monogamous than I am and would not like to involve anyone else in our relationship just for the sex part. And I would not be willing to add anyone into our fluid bonded pair unless that person was willing to be a dedicated sex partner and not involve themselves sexually with anyone else.
Exactly who says that it is mandatory for a woman to have the perfect sex life, anyway?
Nanasha: The reality of mainstream heterosexual sex is really depressing, actually.
Objection, assumes facts not in evidence.
The reality of those people’s sex lives may be very depressing. It’s not the reality of, mainstream heterosexual sex.
Just as with any other such claim, it wants better evidence to support it. Not the least is the problem of confirmation bias. The people with good sex lives won’t complain, which decreases the idea of people have decent sex lives, etc..
Not really related to the discussion at hand (which is really depressing btw, i’m thinking we might need kittens soon), but can’t we just get rid of Ruby now? It’s getting pretty clear that she’s just posting to get a reaction. She’s not even saying anything worthwhile anymore.
Women are treated well in porn? Can MRAs be right about anything?
This is one of my favorite comment threads, so far.
There’s something missing though which surprises me. Are people here under the impression that wages are something producers dream up according to merit and all these other considerations that were mentioned?
er no
Labor is about how much of a pool you are drawing from. The producers would pay people nothing if they could, they pay what they have to. Men show up in droves to do this work, women not so much. It’s also extremely hard on them and very risky.
Also here is an article to note.
Why I Had to Stop Making Hardcore Porn written by a former producer of it. He talks about the difference between making gay and straight films and what the women endure, what the producer’s goal was with the women
http://www.alternet.org/story/145574/?page=1
The complaint that men make less in porn is along the absurd lines of the ‘women commit more child abuse’ stat, and women get custody of the kids more complaint. Any one of those issues highlights sexism against women.
Also porn producers make me freaking ill. Bottom line for me is I think it should be entirely performer controlled. I can’t/shouldn’t get into that lengthy explanation now, but I don’t like producers. They are yuck personified.
>(Of course it’s about that, but I’d love to see what these guys would say if someone made the “accept your own damn sexuality via facespooge because acceptance must come from within” argument, and kept a straight face while doing so.)
I am pretty certain that somebody in the Mythopoetic movement suggested that at some point already. Though as far as i’ve understood, they would very much prefer it if their boss would shoot his load into their face. Initation by an older, more powerful male and such. They’re odd like that.
@CassandraSays:
It’s ok, you can pick on me. Not a good person though, just a person who’s done go od things and some problematic things. And dead set on making sure the I don’t repeat the problematic things.
( I feel like I want to start making a deal of this… people aren’t intrinsically good or bad, that sort of thinking leads to the justification of excessive punishment to “bad” people and excessive excusing for “good” people. )
Hm… There isn’t a grim smilely is there? Ah well. Time to lighten the mood with HEDIGES!
On antiMBZ: That’s some doxing threat right there. “I’ll reveal mildly personal infomration about you, if and only if you give me permission, solely to prove my good faith.” Nefarious!
WordSpinner:
COOKIE-SEEKING AHEAD (not really, but I know it comes off that way):
The first time I got a blowjob, I was worried she was doing it only because she thought she was expected to, and I all but declined. Because every time I’d encountered someone describing her experience giving head — these were 16-, 17-year-old women/girls in less-than-feminist environments — it was in a context of exploitation and trading. I’d never seen a narrative of a woman going down on a guy because she liked going down on guys, or even as an inducement to get the guy to do something she liked.
Cassandra:
I was going to say, with Cliff, that this can backfire, but I suppose there’s a lot of overlap between the sort of person who’d be okay with that and the sort of person who’ll take “no” for an answer without assuming you really mean “ask again/ask differently/whine.”
Cliff:
That’s the ideal, but I think Cassandra’s is meant as backup. So to speak.
Unimaginitive:
So were they, like, compteing with each other over who could be the most put off and grossed out by the prospect of sex?
kirby:
I would love to see that! The idea that there are no good and bad people, just people who do things.
I think that’s probably right. In an environment where everyone is obsessed with female virginity, girls might feel pressured to be the most disgusted by sex, and therefore the “most pure”.
The whole Madonna/whore dichotomy might be part of why so many straight couples have the battle between the man who wants more frequent and more kinky sex, while the woman treats sex like a chore. Some women might be afraid that if the speak up about what they like in bed, that they will be slut shamed for it. More men have been socialized to speak up for what they want, to be assertive, and so in bed, they’ll ask for blow jobs and facials. More women are socialized to be pleasing and accommodating, so they might feel like they have to go along to what the men ask for without saying what they like, or what they find unpleasant or painful.
I also agree that younger women seem to have it worse nowadays in regards to sexual pressures. The “anal ultimatum” wasn’t such a big thing in the 90’s, and neither was mandatory pube shaving. I agree that young people need to be taught how it’s okay to set boundaries, okay to say no, and likewise, it’s not bad if they want to say yes. Like Cassandra said, this is really important for teen girls, who are socialized into being the “perfect girlfriend” at the cost of their own desires and feelings.
This may sound a little weird, but what they hay. The book Green Eggs and Ham kind of annoys me in that the entire story, Sam I Am won’t stop pestering his friend to try the meal. I just think “Hey, he said he doesn’t want to eat it. End of story, leave him alone”. That’s the same way sex should be. You don’t keep whining “Try it, try it, and you may, try it and you may I say”. No, find someone who has the same likes as you from the get go and stop trying to mold someone else into the sexual fantasy you were sold by porn.
“Sam I Am won’t stop pestering his friend to try the meal. I just think “Hey, he said he doesn’t want to eat it.”
LOL. My husband is always trying to get me to taste things, from his protein shakes, to a big sandwich he just made. I hate tasting things when I’m not hungry, but he gets genuinely offended if I won’t just try it. Even if I know I’m not going to like it. He must have read Green Eggs and Ham a lot as a child.
Huh. I’m in a religion that views the stuff (as well as the female stuff) as sacred, but I still don’t want to know Schwyzer’s views on the subject cuz if you read the background on him, he’s a creepy mofo. So give me a spoiler – no one’s discussing the Kemetic myths of Atum creating the Universe through a mystic money shot or the implications of the Greek “Kristos” (to annoint), are they?
stonerwithaboner —
Schwyzers “wounds” are unmendable, period. (And I know I’m not the only one here who thinks that)
kirbywarp — hedgehog! D’AWW!
jennydevildoll — no, Schwyzer’s view was fundamentally the same as above — the cum shot is an acceptance of his sexuality, except in true Hugo fashion, it was all about how boys are told their penis is dirty and thus they feel dirty and thus a woman refusing a cum shot is only furthering the “men are dirty” — very MRM for a so called feminist really.
Huh, yeah, reading this I was thinking that I was never pressured by a guy to do anything in bed… hell, none of my (ok, about 3, but still) sexual partners has even asked for something I wasn’t happy to do. Then again I’m drawn to passivity in guys, so men who are more pushy about their sexuality never got a chance to get that far.
Confession: I’ve actually been on the pressuring side. It took some doing to get into my thick head that no, pressuring someone to have a certain sex act isn’t ok just because I’m a woman and he’s a man. Fortunately said man is excellent at maintaining his boundaries, so nothing he didn’t want actually happened, but I’m still ashamed of my behavior and very happy I learned better since.
My partner and I were baffled by facial cumshots, so we decided to experiment. I refused to receive the cumshot, and (possessing a vagina) unable to perform it on him, so he decided to perform it on himself. He’s freakishly flexible, it’s adorably noodly.
Anyway, Noodleman came on his own face, and we’re still baffled by it. It’s ikky. He also had to shower to get the semen out of his lovely long hair.
Not really ‘mystical wossname of male sexuality’. I’d expect that to be less bizarre and ikky, and also feature sandalwood insence sticks/technicolour phalli.
Noodleman sounds hilarious! Especially what a let-down the whole thing ended up being. I once had a similarly noodly boyfriend who was determined to figure out how to give himself head just to prove that he could (by setting himself up in a bicycle position against the wall while lying on the bed). It was pretty funny when I walked in on him attempting it.
RE the “you try it!” argument, Hershele is right – I had assumed that it would be obvious that it was a method of last resort. Obviously one tries “no, I don’t want to”, “not really into that, sorry”, “no, because I say so, why is that not a good enough answer for you?” etc first.The overlap between whiny wheedling manipulative dude and dude who hears “no, I don’t want to” and goes “oh, ok, fair enough then” is indeed rather small.
I think I’m not the only one who thinks that JtO and Hugo can fall into each other’s arms if they want, I have no interest in being compatriots with either of them.
He tried that too, because he’s always been curious to know what giving head was like. He didn’t quite succeed, so we’ve devised a new plan of action involving a strap on. (I did tell him he could turn a Playstation controller upside-down and suck on one of the ‘wings’, but he didn’t believe me :P) Trying to self-perform oral sex on a female body is apparently even more ridiculous, based on the fact that he spent the entire evening teasing me about the face I was pulling.
I helped him both times, both with positioning and also aiming for the cumshot.
[/TMI]
@Argenti Aertheri- But isn’t Hugo’s argument fundamentally ignoring the fact that semen is messy, smells kind of weird, sticks like cement if you try and wash it off with water, and burns like battery acid in open wounds (like a paper cut that you didn’t remember was still there) or eyes?
I mean, if men were constantly told that they had to “receive” a liquid that does all of those things on their bodies on a regular basis, many many shitfits would be had. I honestly think that most guys don’t realize that, yeah, body fluids are things that not everyone wants to share, and that’s OK.
Hell, in public school nowadays, you can be SUSPENDED for spitting because it’s a prime way to spread disease (like Hand, Foot and Mouth disease, etc). And if I’m not mistaken, a good number of heterosexual guys find it freaky and creepy to have sex with a woman while she’s on her period (even with a condom).
Why is semen more special than blood, shed uterine lining, feces, urine, saliva, etc?
Why should men feel entitled to shoot semen on or around body parts of a partner who does not want semen on them?
@creativewritingstudent- It sounds cool to be able to experiment with someone sexually without the crushing pressure that a lot of sex seems to bring with it for being Very Important Thing And Stuff.
And yeah, the whole semen on body thing just never did it to me. In fact, I was kind of confused about it when it was first presented to me by the ex who was super into it. I was all, “you find WHAT sexy? WHY?” I mean, I honestly wanted to know what was hot about it. But he really could never answer it. I think that to some extent it has a lot to do with porn conditioning. There are very few people I know who are really “into” cumshots who have never seen porn (and the sample size must be unbelievably small anyway), and I’ve noticed (completely unscientifically gathered, mind you) that when porn/sexually exciting material is involved, simply the act of associating that with the sexual pleasure can be enough to create a Pavlovian effect that makes something “hot” without any real other concrete reason for it.
I think that the worst part is that most of these sexual “preferences” wouldn’t even be a big deal if it didn’t also seem to always come with a big heap of disrespect/misogyny. It’s not just enough to cum on a woman’s face- he has to ridicule and demean her as well, or it’s not “playing to his tastes.”
So maybe it’s not just cum in the face that is being “demanded” here- it’s a demand for the subjugation of women to at least some level of abuse because guys who like facials have been conditioned to find ABUSE “hot.”
…My back is starting to ache just thinking about the whole oral-sex-on-self thing. O.O I know there are people out there that are really flexible, but ouch.