Sorry to return so quickly to the fetid mind of MRA blabologist JohnTheOther, but, well, you’ll see why I have.
Here is Mr. TheOther in AskReddit, responding to the question “Women of Reddit, how do you feel about cumshots?” (No, he is not strictly speaking a “woman of Reddit,” not like that’s going to stop him.) Enjoy the irony of the A Voice for Men second banana rehashing, apparently with utter sincerity, an argument once set forth, rather infamously, by a feminist fellow named Hugo Schwyzer. And enjoy the also-very-special response from fellow MRA SuicideBanana, whom we met earlier in the week.
I know Mr. TheOther is concerned about people “quote mining” comments, and presenting them out of context, but in this case, there is no further context. His comment, which I have presented unedited in screenshot form, isn’t in response to any other comment; it’s simply an answer to the question I alluded to above. Mr. TheOther does respond to SuicideBanana’s remarks about him being an advocate and facilitator of violence, as you can see if you clicky click here, but sheds no more light on the issue of porno cumshots as a “pseudo-mystical representation of the sexuality of the viewer.”
@ LBT
There was one comment that I read that way too, actually, as saying that one can avoid even attempts at manipulation being made by pre-screening potential partners for that tendency or just being so hardcore that no one even thinks to try it on you. I didn’t think it was helpful either (and also it sounds like magical thinking). I’m definitely not trying to suggest that people should be able to resist manipulation and if they can’t they’re weak, though, sorry if it came across that way. I’m more trying to go “when this happens it’s OK to push back, and good to recognise what it is that’s happening so that it’s easier to feel OK about pushing back and not be guilt tripped into compliance”.
so if being penetrated by a man isn’t enough “acceptance of male sexuality” and being jizzed on is the only way to accept his manly man essence, then I propose penetrating a woman isn’t acceptance of female sexuality either. In fact to do so men should allow women to vaginally squirt on them in order to receive that sacred female essence!
Dumping bodily fluids on people for all! >.>
Seriously though, MRAs can fuck themselves and keep their nasty sperm to themselves…LOLOLMISANDRY!!!
@LBT
No I got that sense about this discussion too. Outside of the religious right there is very little instruction for women about how to say no, and even then they don’t teach you to say no to *certain* things rather than sex in general. Women aren’t taught to negotiate salaries or be assertive in general. These are skills that are hard to learn all at once in a sexual context; I would guess that the majority feel impolite by thinking of refusing.
I *really* wish someone would do some research on contemporary sexuality in college aged or teen aged communities that addressed the question of how many requests girls are getting and the tactics men use to try and get them to do things from pornography. I’ve heard of research on the sexual satisfaction of hook up culture (which is probably related), but I don’t think its specific enough to make any generalizations about what percentage of women give in (or to what extent).
Why don’t they come on their own faces and thereby fully accept their own sexuality? Acceptance is not a gift that can be granted by others; ultimately if you want to be accepted, you must accept yourself.
If they can’t quite manage to ejaculate all over their own faces, they could just dip their fingers in and do some kind of face painting ceremony. Perhaps they could have a MGOTW bonding ritual where they all solemnly accept their own sexuality and maleness. Hugo can join in.
Or perhaps this is just about getting off on degrading women, after all.
(Of course it’s about that, but I’d love to see what these guys would say if someone made the “accept your own damn sexuality via facespooge because acceptance must come from within” argument, and kept a straight face while doing so.)
Well, I can share one tactic that’s specific to requests for anal that the recipient does not wish to accomodate. What worked for me was “sure, we can experiment if you like, but since you’re the one who’s so into the idea, you first! let’s go dildo shopping this weekend!”. The reason it works is that it forces the person asking to articulate why they don’t like the idea of being on the receiving end themselves, at which point the person being asked can say “yeah, it so happens I feel exactly the same way, so if you don’t like the idea why are you trying to pressure me into it when I’ve already told you no?”.
Of course, women in porn never have to fake a sexual orientation they don’t have, no siree.
Word.
I understand and sympathize with cheering oneself on as a tough cookie who won’t tolerate manipulation, but as someone who stayed with an abusive and manipulative partner for several years, I still wince a little when the tone in these discussions turns towards, “I would never put up with that bullshit,” because for all that the intent behind it is entirely admirable and reasonable, it does feel a little like the effect is to shift the onus somewhat from “don’t be a douchebag” to “don’t be the sort of pathetic doormat loser who puts up with douchebaggery.” I sincerely hope everyone who says that WOULD never put up with that bullshit – but it’s a lot easier to reassure yourself of that right up until the point that someone is actively trying to manipulate you into putting up with it.
In terms of the orientation issue with JtO’s argument it occurs to me that part of his deal is that he’s buying into the idea that the women in porn really do love everything they’re doing, definitely, they are totally into it and hot for you, random viewer. Nope, they’re not acting at all! Basically even when he’s trying to deconstruct porn he’s still incapable of deconstructing even the most obvious things, like the fact that orientation is almost irrelevent since everyone is acting anyway.
LBT, I know how you feel; if you’re good at saying no, that’s awesome, but most of us get manipulated (sexually or otherwise) at some point. Because manipulators are good at it!
re: CassandraSays and skeptifem
Oh good. Yeah, saying no can be really tricky. I’ve learned to push back, now that I’m in a safe situation, but yeah, as a kid, a LOT of manipulation was involved. (Including the classic idea that denying someone sex was equal to being raped.)
Although I am proud to say that my husband was more than happy to go dildo shopping with me. 😀 He’s a keeper for sure.
RE: katz
Yeah. And when you’re a kid or otherwise young, it makes it worse. I admit, I write one of my young characters as impervious to manipulation as a sort of vicarious reassurance.
I feel like this is something that we could do a better job of teaching young girls, the idea that at some point someone probably will try to manipulate them into specific sex acts that they don’t want, and that saying no or pushing back doesn’t mean that they’re being mean to the guy or unfair or prudish or whatever. Looking back on my teenage years and then watching younger friends navigate the same things the theme that comes up over and over again is girls feeling like maybe they’re the only person this is happening to, or the only one objecting (because the manipulative person is telling them so). Which is why I do talk about it, particularly to younger friends.
Of course we also need to teach boys not to do that shit in the first place. Again, I get the sense that a lot of boys never heard “do not try to whine and wheedle your girlfriend into stuff she isn’t into, if you do that you are being an asshole”.
Also, T minus a few minutes until some MRA comes in and insists that women do this stuff to men just as often as men do it to women and wah misandry.
Pecunium mentioned the special kitchen gadget that slices and peels a pineapple all in one step. I have one and I love it. I don’t want to sound like a commercial, but it is so much easier than cutting one the regular way.
Pineapple slicer
I dunno about that. What are you going to do if they say “okay then”? (Or, more likely, if they say “it’s totally different because we’re different genders?”)
Anal isn’t an intrinsically bad or icky thing. It’s just a thing certain people like and certain people don’t. I don’t think the “threaten them with receiving anal themselves” tactic acknowledges that.
I think you just have to push “No, because I don’t want that and that should be enough.” in this situation.
LBT, everyone has vulnerabilities and if you live long enough you’re bound to come across someone who will exploit them. As far as I’m concerned, the shame belongs to the person doing the exploiting.
@CassandraSays Yes! to your post about educating young girls about this. I wish someone had given me that message when I was growing up.
One person who should never be allowed ever to talk to young girls about sex? GirlWritesWhat. (This whole thread is just as fucked up as you would assume from r/mr.) As is this one.
Yeah, this matters. If someone lies to you and you believe them, that doesn’t mean you’re stupid. It means they’re a liar.
And I don’t think it’s possible to be so strong and smart that you never fall for manipulation and still have any kind of emotional relationship at all. If you put any trust in a person, they can hurt you. Which is why the onus should be on them not to hurt you, not on you to be even stronger and smarter until somehow you’re such a superhero that abuse doesn’t work on you anymore.
@cloudiah
Re: GWW
That’s all we need. A bunch of MRAs reading her post and using it as justification for being pushy. “No doesn’t mean no, It just means try harder.” Gawd!!!!!!!
GGW shouldn’t be allowed to advise young people on anything, really. I feel very lucky that I did get the message that people probably would try to manipulate me into unwanted sex and it was OK to say no and be angry with them for trying from my mother as a teenager, and I probably only got that because she had been abused as a child and was trying really hard to protect me and intimately familiar with the tactics that abusers use. Which still didn’t stop me from dating one, because many abusers are initially very charming, it just gave me a few tools that helped in resisting specific aspects of his attempts at manipulation.
The thing about the “hey, you first!” wasn’t presented as a threat, it was said in a totally perky hey if you think this is a thing that feels so amazing why wouldn’t you want to try it? tone. And it worked, because in response he articulated a whole bunch of things that made it clear that he considered it demeaning to the recipient and probably painful (which I already knew that he was going to say), which unfortunately does not seem to be an uncommon attitude. Not sure why you’re assuming that it’s my attitude, since I didn’t say anything to indicate that.
On a more general note, I’m really not appreciating the “well you just don’t know what it’s like to have a partner try to manipulate you” thing going on here given that I’m talking about a relationship with a guy who was in fact doing his best to manipulate me (it just happens that in terms of sex it didn’t work).
LBT, I have met several me who arr disgusted by their own semen, but believe I should be eager to accept facials from them. And they’ve been quite pushy about it. When they can handle having their own semen on their face, I’ll consider letting their semen on my face. To my mind though, it just seems like their pissing in a womans face. That’s what sprung to mind the first time I saw it and that thought has never left me. If other people enjoy it or my partner finds it so important he leaves thts fine. I’ve been manipulated plenty in some of my relationships. I’ve gotten better at knowing my boundaries and being okay with “no” even when I can’t put my finger on why.
And that’s the thing. Manipulators thrive on people who don’t have enough experience in life to know where their boundaries are, or what those boundaries are likely to be so a decent manipulator will simply keep shifting the fuzzy lines. Being maniipulated has nothing to do with intelligence.
@Fembot Yeah, that’s already happening on that first thread:
And GWW keeps digging a hole:
god, shes almost as bad of a writer as jto
Um, on the Japan issue, just want to point out that I have a Japanese ex (not Japanese-American, born and raised in Osaka), and he had no problem understanding the idea that “no” means “stop immediately”, nor did he then persist on the assumption that I must not really mean it because that’s just what women do. People need to stop treating porn as sex ed.
I agree, MRAs can go fuck themselves.