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a voice for men antifeminism grandiosity homophobia hypocrisy johntheother MGTOW misandry misogyny MRA music video worst writing in the history of the universe YouTube

Working in the quote mine, going down down

“I’ve found another incredibly dopey statement from JohnTheOther!”

So our blabby friend JohnTheOther has an especially blabby piece up on A Voice for Men at the moment. Its ostensible subject: the pure eeeevil of unnamed anti-MRAs who misrepresent the World’s Greatest 21st Century Human Rights Movement –  the Men’s Rights Movement, that is – through the eeevil practice of “quote mining.”

I didn’t read the whole thing. Mr. TheOther is not what you’d call an efficient writer. Here are a few quotes mined from the article more or less at random that I think will give you a good idea of his, um, style:

Biology, or indeed, evolutionary theory is not really the topic of this discussion, rather it is provided here as example of a rhetorical practice increasingly common among opponents of a small but growing human rights movement. …

 The developing practice in opposition to human rights, of quote-mining goes beyond pathetic, into the realm of craven, futile depravity. …

However, it seems that no matter how many times it is explained that a thing formed from (bad) ideas – an ideology, and a group of people, identifiable by sex, are two distinct things, gender ideologues continue to conflate them. …

I don’t know if any of this makes any more sense in context, as I didn’t read the context. Let’s continue:

A year ago, I wrote an article focusing on the necessary public repudiation of violence, and the responsibility of open opposition to those who advocated or promoted a climate of acceptable violence, including those who openly advocate murder, such as a group of swedish feminists, and eugenics advocates on the squalid radical-hub. Statements from my original piece were quoted by at least one amoral zombie, and reframed to present my view as one which called for violence.

Of course, the author of those yellow pixels might not have realized that the original article, along with it’s unambiguous opposition to violence was posted on a site with substantially higher traffic than his own. The craven and stupid dishonesty of the quote-miner was apparent to all but a few, blinded by their own ideological goggles.

Oh, wait, I think those last two paragraphs were supposed to be about me. And I think they were supposed to refer to this post of mine, which took a look at a post of his that defended A Voice for Men’s “outing” of a group of Swedish feminists that the AVFM crew had decided, on the basis of a brief video promoting a theatrical production, were “murder advocates.” His post contained the following (unedited) paragraphs.

That’s right manboob, identifying a group of self-declared murder advocates to the public is more important than protecting those murder advocates from the consequences of advocating murder.

In the truth-is-fiction world of Futrelle’s mind, the men’s right advocates calling for public identification of a hate organization have been transmogrified into promoters of violence.

And what if they get killed David? What if rather than be arrested – as promoters of hate, and public advocates of murder, what if these depraved and murderous female supremacists come to harm at the hands of a citizen. If that happens, it will mean that a society’s system of law, designed to prevent hate organizations, and to allow redress of grievance through non violent due process is gone, wiped out by your ideology of violence and hate. That’s what you’re defending, David.

In my post, I quoted the final paragraph; here I have included the two preceding grafs to give it a bit more, what’s that word, context.

Of course, a couple of paragraphs by themselves are still kind of “out of context” I guess. Since I am pretty sure no one would like it if I simply pasted in the entire post from JtO here, I will instead direct you to his original post, here. You may make of it what you wish. I rather doubt that you will see it as a clearheaded treatise of nonviolence. Especially with that line: “And what if they get killed David?” (Which you can read in context above, or, again, in his original post. Let me link to it a sixth time here, just to make sure you know how to find his original words in context. Oops, that’s seven times now)

Interesting that a master debater of Mr. TheOther’s caliber somehow forgot to provide even one link to the controversy he was referring to, so people might be able to see for themselves what had happened, and judge his claims accordingly. I wonder why that might be?

I’ll skip the next bit in Mr. TheOther’s latest post, in which Mr.TheOther suggests that an opponent of his might have taken a quote of his out of context in a way that  makes him look racist and homophobic. But since he offers no links to the actual discussion, there’s no way of judging whether this particular quote-mining claim is true. (Perhaps this discussion on the Men’s Rights subreddit could shed some light on it?)

In any case, if we put this particular discussion in a broader, er, context, there is certainly ample evidence of homophobia amongst the A Voice for Men crowd, as I have pointed out here and here. (Protip: If you want to convince people you are not homophobic, you should probably not feature a video mocking “lesbo-bos” in the sidebar of the site you help to run.)

Anyway, this next bit of his definitely has something or other to do with me:

Bottom feeding quote miners indulging in snarky feats of futrelian deceit likely do win rhetorical brownie points, at least when seen through their own ideological goggles. But they are cementing their own a public persona which will wear about as comfortably as klan robes do at a NAACP meeting. The altered landscape this movement is building is not someday, it is now, and it is coming faster all the time.

Uh, dude, my last name has two L’s in it. It should be “Futrellian deceit.” If you’re going to turn my name into a slur, at least spell it correctly.

For individuals in opposition to human rights of men and boys now, whether through lying, repetition of old, false dogmas, or the craven tactic of mis-represented and mis-attributed meaning, the comfort of a formerly one-sided monologue is over. The public squirming we see in attempts to render MRA voices silent or apologetic will escalate before it abates. But that’s okay.

Hey, Mr. TheOther. If you really want to prove my “futrelian” or even my “Futrellian” deceit, how about this: provide specific examples of me taking something you or some other MRA has written out of context in a way that distorts its meaning.

For your convenience, you can find all the Man Boobz posts that reference you here and here.

And for anyone who now has the song “Working In the Coal Mine” stuck in their head, here’s the Lee Dorsey original:

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pecunium
pecunium
8 years ago

Argenti: They are the bane of my first draft writing, and so they plague my online life.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
8 years ago

I want to see Owly do the job of a stay at home parent for a day, since he says it’s so easy. He would have to take care of a colicky baby and a rowdy preschooler all day with no breaks. His shift doesn’t end during bedtime either. If a child gets a fever or stomachache at 2 am, then he does not sleep until the child goes back to sleep.

He would also have to make three meals, two snacks, scrub the dishes, do two loads of laundry, put the clothes away, entertain the children, put up a million toys, take out the trash, clean up a potty training accident, vacuum, dust, mop up some finger paint, and at the end of the day bring his wife a beer while she relaxes in front of the TV. This would be an easier day when nobody has any appointments, classes, shopping, or errands to do. On those days, he would drive his wife to work and back so that he could use the family car for the day while she’s at work. You can’t have two cars on one income unless you’re rich. Well, if you have a second car, it’s a clunker that may or may not run when you need it.

If his wife ever takes the kids outside to play for an hour, then everyone will say she’s a stellar parent, while totally ignoring everything he does. His work is considered mandatory, while hers is considered going above and beyond.

If people asks him what he does, they will say “Oh it must be nice to do do nothing all day. You’re lucky.” or just assume he’s incompetent to do anything else, because taking care of children is considered low status drudgery. Other people might pay lip service to people who take care of babies and children, but even they refuse to pay child care workers a living wage for their work.

If he needs extra money to help make ends meet, he could watch another three children, too, for $15 a day per child. At ten hours a day, his childcare services would net him $4.50 an hour, a little more than half of minimum wage. He could also tend a garden, take up canning, and sell Tupperware door to door to help the family stay afloat. None of these jobs will be considered worthwhile contributions for the family income, though, because they’re coded as feminine by our society, and anything considered “women’s work” is seen as inferior.

Lastly, I would not real children to be in NWO’s care, so it would have to be those robot baby dolls they make you care for in home ec classes.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
8 years ago

If he needs extra money to help make ends meet, he could watch another three children, too, for $15 a day per child.

Ten years ago, my sister was paying $50 per day for her kid. However, she works 12-hour shifts, so that day was actually 14 hours, which works out to about $3.50 per hour for the babysitter. It turned out to be cheaper for my sister to get a full-time, live-in nanny, and the nanny made more money than the babysitter who took in kids.

Fembot
Fembot
8 years ago

Child care costs scare me. We will be having our first baby in the next few, but I also plan on going back to teaching, so my husband has agreed he will take care of baby during the day. He will also be going to school part time and doing various odd jobs for his dad. His plan B for childcare is “my sister will watch the baby.” This scares me!

Fembot
Fembot
8 years ago

I meant next few years, we aren’t pregnant yet.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
8 years ago

$50 a day is very expensive. My numbers were the prices of childcare in Joplin pre-tornado, for an unlicensed home caregiver. The prices for licensed, center based care are more expensive than home based care, but that’s the case almost everywhere. The cheapest centers used to cost $25 a day. Now the prices are up, because so many daycares were destroyed. I’m sure the prices will go back down as daycares are rebuilt.

Hey NWO, I know you think that women never care about men dying on the job, especially men working in mines. I guess you’ve never been to the Joplin Museum Complex to learn about the lead and zinc mines that made Joplin the large, successful city it is today. If you had, you would know about Francis Perkin’s advocacy for the sick and dying men in Joplin’s mines

How about that? It was a woman that was worried about sick men, and she wanted them to have safer working conditions. Perhaps you should take a break from your pity parties and learn some more history.

nwoslave
8 years ago

@Shaenon
“Message me on Facebook (same username as here). I’ll arrange for you to move out to my place and do all my cooking, cleaning and childcare for free. I demand that you also keep yourself attractive and amusing, but that shouldn’t be so hard. In return, you may sleep under my roof and eat some of the food you prepare. It is a sweet deal. Do not pass this up.”

Nuh uh princess. Role reversal, remember. I get to bitch how I do all the work and you don’t do shit. I get to dictate whose oppressed. I get to spend 80% of the worlds wealth. You have sex me up whenever I say so, my mood is all that matters. One wrong word from you and you’ll be out on alimony/child support row living in the gutter. You get your lazy ass out there and work, the day you die is the day you get to retire. It’s all about me baby.

cloudiah
8 years ago

It was a woman that was worried about sick men, and she wanted them to have safer working conditions.

[cloudiah dons protective gear and channels Owly for a second]

Of course! Women are always perfect little princesses. She probably sat down in the street and cried to get her big daddy guvmint to say they would give those evil men better working conditions, and then she tootled off to her cushy HR job wearing silky underwear while men continued dying in the mines so she could have her bon bons and kitty litter.

[cloudiah disengages from Owly thoughts, and cleanses brain with kitten & baby sloth videos]

KathleenB
KathleenB
8 years ago

Cloudia, if they’ve done the equivilent, or more, evil to others, then I don’t care if they get raped. I may even chuckle about it.

You’ve already convinced up that you’re a horrible excuse for a human being. You don’t need to constantly repeat yourself.

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 years ago

How about that? It was a woman that was worried about sick men, and she wanted them to have safer working conditions.

NWO thinks safer working conditions are a plot to “feminize” the workplace. He would rather work in dangerous conditions to prove how manly he is.

emilyperson
emilyperson
8 years ago

It was a woman that was worried about sick men, and she wanted them to have safer working conditions.

[Owly]
Well of course, if all the men got killed who is going to pay for princesse’s bon bons.
[/Owly]

Speaking of Owly, I’ve read/lurked on the last few threads and have a pretty good idea of his, er, style, but I’m not sure what the Big Book of Learnin’ is. Help a newbie out?

ShadetheDruid
ShadetheDruid
8 years ago

This is where I get ninja’d by someone:

http://manboobz.forummotion.com/t454-nwo-s-big-book-of-learnin

Dracula
Dracula
8 years ago

NWO thinks safer working conditions are a plot to “feminize” the workplace. He would rather work in dangerous conditions to prove how manly he is.

Yeah, in slaveyworld she was just paying “lip service”, and if she was a real ally she’d have gone around punching other women in the face.

katz
8 years ago

The Book of Learnin’ is a giant compendium of (paraphrased) stuff he has actually said and, to the best of our knowledge, actually believes to be true. It has also been illustrated.

katz
8 years ago

Nope, Shade, this time you were the ninja-er.

ShadetheDruid
ShadetheDruid
8 years ago

I would gloat, but all I can think is “maybe I spend too much time on Manboobz”. Plus your linking skills are a lot better than mine. 😛

pecunium
pecunium
8 years ago

Just for a bit of explication I have a description of what prison could be, if people like Ruby didn’t think making it possible to add rape to the list of indignities they face is necessary.

Almost Heaven in Oklahoma

“Oh the luxury of that first meal! Lunch was a boneless, skinless chicken quarter on the bone and green beans, a half pint of no fat milk, a packet of artificially sweetened ice tea, two slices of ham and a slice of 2% milk cheese and two very thin slices of whole wheat bread and a packet of mustard and another that contained freeze-dried coffee and Sweet and Low.”

Imagine describing that as luxury, and being, “almost heaven.”

Ruby laughs at the place he came from, on the way to that slice of paradise.

There were even pillows and sheets in the cells! What luxury!

And the food! You haven’t an appreciation of what that means! The previous 26 months had been awful food, soy instead of real meat, basically all carbs (poison to a diabetic like me) and the need to be a junkyard dog protecting your food so it isn’t stolen by the other dogs in the pen….

I could think in the solitude without smelling the farts and body odor of fourteen other people trapped in that box previously mentioned. I could shower anytime we were not required to be in our cells, a private, individual shower with both hot and cold water faucets that actually functioned! Oh the luxury!

That’s what Ruby supports, stripping all privacy, all sense of being treated a human being. Why? Because they were “bad”. The guy I am quoting is a con-man. I found out about him because a convicted terrorist is trying to get him sent back to prison; for the “crime” of talking about his being a convicted terrorist.

And if he goes back, Ruby will laugh as hat the idea of him being raped.

But she’s a “good person”. She loves her pets, and her family: and people getting raped.

pecunium
pecunium
8 years ago

Damn, the last three grafs are all my thoughts, not quotation.

Amused
8 years ago

As disgusting as Ruby’s views on incarceration are, they are, sadly, not uncommon. I still remember my shock when I discovered that Eugene Volokh — a jurist with whom I always disagreed on politics, but whose legal scholarship I respected — thinks that relatives of crime victims should be given the opportunity to torture or kill the perpetrators.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

OK, I can almost see where old fashioned an eye for an eye thinking would lead someone to conclude that allowing the relatives of victims to kill the perp would be acceptable (I don’t agree, but I can see how someone arrives at that viewpoint, as fucked up as it is), but how does he explain why he thinks it’s OK to allow torture?

Amused
8 years ago

CassandraSays:

Here is his explanation. Personally, I think it’s vile. If we are going to sink to the level of the perpetrator, what moral authority do we have over him?

And in any event, I’ve always found that people interpet “an eye for an eye” in a rather incomplete fashion. What that principle says to me is that retribution must be limited to the harm suffered. In other words, if you take out someone’s eye, they can’t kill you. Even within that Bronze-Age Mesopotamian, the amount of suffering you inflict on a criminal may not exceed the amount of suffering he inflicted in the course of the crime for which he was convicted. Still, Volokh doesn’t grasp even that much. All he seems to be saying is that wanting to inflict suffering as revenge is a noble sentiment and should not be frustrated.

(I believe he’s had a child since that post went up. I wonder how he applies his principles of retributive justice to playground disputes.)

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

A stolen toy for a stolen toy, maybe? That kind of thinking has always struck me as rather childlike, so maybe the playground is the best place to apply it anyway.

Also, ugh.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
8 years ago

$50 a day is very expensive.

Well. My sister was making $50 per hour at the time, so she could afford it. It was kind of the going rate in Ft McMurray. It’s gone up since then, law of supply & demand.

pecunium
pecunium
8 years ago

re Eugene: I remember when that happened: Sigh, deep and mournful

The thing is, I’ve known Eugene since… 1986,or so. Even with that I was shocked to read that. Appalled even.

Honestly, I don’t think his underlying thinking on the matter has changed; even with a child, for the same reasons Ruby thinks it. He doesn’t imagine his family members could ever perpetrate such a crime, ergo the only way he is involved is if they are the victim.

And, from a safe remove, he thinks he’d want to take revenge.

Sharculese
8 years ago

I get to bitch how I do all the work and you don’t do shit.

you do that already, dummy

mags
mags
8 years ago

“The altered landscape this movement is building is not someday, it is now, and it is coming faster all the time.”

How can “now” come any faster? Now is already here. Now is *always* already here!

VoIP
VoIP
8 years ago

NWOSlave:

I get to bitch how I do all the work and you don’t do shit. I get to dictate whose oppressed. I get to spend 80% of the worlds wealth. You have sex me up whenever I say so, my mood is all that matters. One wrong word from you and you’ll be out on alimony/child support row living in the gutter. You get your lazy ass out there and work, the day you die is the day you get to retire. It’s all about me baby.

We’re talking about raising children, about who does that. I’m being straight with you here, and I’d like an answer in good faith: have you ever been around kids? Did you have siblings growing up? Do you have nieces and nephews? Little kids can’t feed, take care of, or govern themselves: they have terrible judgement, no experience, and different cognition from adults. And yet they, like the rest of us, must eat or die.

(1) Who on earth do you think is doing the work to make sure all these kids are taken care of?
(2) Do you think this work is difficult or easy, after reading the other posts in this thread?

Fembot
Fembot
8 years ago

“I get to bitch how I do all the work and you don’t do shit. I get to dictate whose oppressed. I get to spend 80% of the worlds wealth. You have sex me up whenever I say so, my mood is all that matters. One wrong word from you and you’ll be out on alimony/child support row living in the gutter. You get your lazy ass out there and work, the day you die is the day you get to retire. It’s all about me baby.”

If this is how he views marriage and relationships, it’s probably best that he’s not in one. It amazes me how some, if not most MRAs are completely clueless as to the fact that happily married people ARE BEST FRIENDS.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

The thing is, a quick look around on any given day will show that most couples do not match the model that NWO is suggesting is the norm. Given that he does not work from home, he must have to go outside sometimes, so there’s no way that he hasn’t seen those couples. He just believes what he wants to believe.

nwoslave
8 years ago

@VoIP
“We’re talking about raising children, about who does that. I’m being straight with you here, and I’d like an answer in good faith: have you ever been around kids? Did you have siblings growing up? Do you have nieces and nephews? Little kids can’t feed, take care of, or govern themselves: they have terrible judgement, no experience, and different cognition from adults. And yet they, like the rest of us, must eat or die.

(1) Who on earth do you think is doing the work to make sure all these kids are taken care of?
(2) Do you think this work is difficult or easy, after reading the other posts in this thread?”

I don’t know why, because I’ll most certainly be ridiculed, but I’ll reply in good faith. In order to get out of that shithole of a city, my brother, my sister, her three kids and I shacked up in a tiny rented house for several years in order to save up to buy a house/houses.

I was the only one who could get my niece to eat dinner so every night that’s what I’d do. I taught all of them to play chess. A few times my vacation consisted of staying home and watching the kids, (they were considered all of our kids) while my sister went on vacation.

One hilarious moment I recall was when we destroyed the house with popcorn. I said that cleaning was a game and who could fill the bowl with the most popcron was the winner. My oldest niece of course said it wasn’t a game, yet me and the youngest two kept saying it was. At one point she straightened up stiff as a board and let out an ear piercing scream that lasted for what seemed like 20 minutes. I could not stop laughing and the popcorn fight began once again.

Keep in mind this was my vacation. Everynight, not just then but for years I told them bedtime stories. I never read out of a book it was all just winging it. There is not one day of work I wouldn’t trade for one day at home, ever. The video Dave gave. Do you think any of those men wouldn’t rather be at home? My job might not be quite as hard but it isn’t far behind. I’m looking at my work sheet from 6/9 which is 87.02 hours and the week of 6/16 is 85.45 hours. And I get to spend my time in a hotel after work.

There is simply no comparison, none at all. I literally have spent vacations watching children and I consider it a vacation. Probably 95% of the men I know also would consider it a vacation, especially if they, “had” to do it the rest of their lives. I’m being completely honest. Most men work in labor jobs that differ little from those miners, jobs that literally suck your life away. You never see them, but the the amenities you take for granted, they’re the people making it happen. Now ridicule away!!!

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
8 years ago

NWO, I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you’re not just making shit up. It sounds like you’re a fun and loving uncle. It actually made me sad to read that, because you somehow went from a being a loving, fun person to being the incomprehensible, angry person that you are now. (Although that bit about your older niece screaming for 20 minutes is making my back-brain go HMMMM, what’s up with that?)

I know people who spend their vacations volunteering for hard, physical labour in 3rd world countries. They work ridiculous hours doing disgusting things for free, and they enjoy it. It’s a break from their regular life, and it’s temporary.

I loved taking care of my nephews. I went through some fairly long stretches (2 1/2 months was the longest) of being on call 24/7, with no days off from it when my youngest nephew was around 4. I love him to bits, but it was exhausting, and if I’d had to do that for the rest of his childhood, I would have done some regrettable things, and scarred us both for life.

You had fun being the care taking uncle because you loved the kids, and it was a break from your hated job. It was your VACATION. I can happily shovel shit out of barns on my vacation, because it’s better than being at work, and it’s temporary.

Why did your sister need a vacation from her kids? Because being on call for childcare 24/7, being the person responsible for making all the decisions, being the one who stays reasonable (because little kids can’t be), being the one who has to keep track of ALL THE THINGS is exhausting.

We don’t bash on you for saying you work hard, but for saying that AT THE SAME TIME that you’re saying caregivers don’t work hard. It’s all hard work. It’s all worthy of respect.

We bash on you because you behave all insulted that you’re not getting enough respect, when you don’t GIVE ANY respect.

Fembot
Fembot
8 years ago

“I can happily shovel shit out of barns on my vacation, because it’s better than being at work, and it’s temporary.”

Damn. Some people HATE their jobs. 🙁

When I was teaching, it didn’t even feel like work. It just felt like I was doing my natural thing. I feel very fortunate for that.

nwoslave
8 years ago

@Unimaginative
“We don’t bash on you for saying you work hard, but for saying that AT THE SAME TIME that you’re saying caregivers don’t work hard. It’s all hard work. It’s all worthy of respect.”

But that’s the thing, it isn’t, “hard.” My sister, whose quite honest will be the first to admit it isn’t hard. She’s had a few low level jobs, (bank teller, cashier, ect.). She’ll flat out say that oh yeah, being a homemaker is way easier than even those low level jobs.

Do you consider feeding, cleaning and caring for yourself while at home the, “hard” part of your life? That’s the easy part of life. The hard part is the work part away from home. When I leave work I don’t say, “Now comes the hard part where I have to feed and clothe myself.”

Why do people by lotteries? They buy them so they can stay home and not do the hard part of life. Not too likely many lottery winners rush off to work 10-12 hour days in a mentally/physically demanding jobs because they find home life too difficult.
Home life = easy.
Work life = hard.

Amused
8 years ago

Re. Volokh: Now that I’ve thought about it some more, all that stuff he said about torture and, just recently, giving people the “freedom” to sell their organs — sounds very familiar to me. It’s amazing how powerful Ivan the Terrible’s legacy is.

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

Today I learned that caring for a family is basically like putting clothes on yourself. After winning the lottery.

…But it would still be very demeaning for a man to do full-time.

katz
8 years ago

Not too likely many lottery winners rush off to work 10-12 hour days in a mentally/physically demanding jobs because they find home life too difficult.

Because we all know that, if you get a job, your household tasks suddenly disappear.

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

Also I learned that getting out of Philadelphia is basically like escaping Hell, which is very weird for me considering I have family from there and seriously. It has some really poor and run-down areas, but it’s also got its share of fancy neighborhoods, good schools, and major businesses headquartered there. It’s not like all of Philadelphia is The Pit Of Doom.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
8 years ago

@NWO

For me, the easy part of coming home after work is sitting down, putting up my feet, reading, surfing the net, whatever. Yes, I have to feed myself and keep the house hygienic, and some days that’s just nothing, and other days it’s a huge, huge burden, because why the fuck am I the only one who realizes that the supply of toilet paper has to occasionally be replaced and that groceries don’t just self-generate in the kitchen?

It’s easy to be a stay at home caregiver for some people. For other people, it’s keeping them from doing something they’d rather be doing. Writing a novel, discovering the Higgs-Boson particle, I don’t know. My sister doesn’t particularly care for her job, but couldn’t WAIT to go back to work after maternity leave. Her husband didn’t even WANT paternity leave.

Some people apparently love their jobs, and can’t wait to get to work in the morning.

People are different from each other. We don’t all enjoy the same things. Some people like their steak rare, some people like their tofu deep-fried. Not everyone is suited for the job they do, whether it’s cleaning houses, or building them, or designing them, or brokering the deal for them.

Even people who like their jobs need to have their work noticed and appreciated. There is a strong tendency for people to take stay at home caregivers’ work for granted. For instance, you. You think keeping house and taking care of children is fun and easy. It’s not for everybody. For some people, it’s drudgery.

We get that you hate your job, and you wish you could stay at home. It’s not the fault of people who can stay at home that you can’t. Why be so bitchy that they can? Why get so angry when they point out that what they do is actually contributing to the household, and is valuable, and they’re not just sitting around waiting for their ATM to get home and give them stuff? Why take it so personally?

If you really, really want to be a stay at home caregiver, become a nanny. Granted, you won’t make much pay, and chances are pretty good that you’ll be disrespected and treated poorly. But otherwise, it’s a life of bliss for you. Go for it.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
8 years ago

By the way:

She’s had a few low level jobs, (bank teller, cashier, ect.). She’ll flat out say that oh yeah, being a homemaker is way easier than even those low level jobs.

Have you ever done one of those “low level” jobs? The examples you gave have a huge customer service component, and let me tell you. Customers are assholes. Being polite in the face of massive assholery is really, really hard. No fucking kidding it’s easier to stay at home than deal with a whole shift of that crap.

The point is, it may be true for you, and it may be true for your sister, but it’s not true for everybody in all circumstances.

Fembot
Fembot
8 years ago

I think NWO is jealous of people (women) who can stay home all day. I guess staying home all day, washing clothes, mopping floors, preparing meals, scrubbing toilets, etc. is his idea of Heaven, which is kind of sad.

cloudiah
8 years ago

Most men work in labor jobs that differ little from those miners, jobs that literally suck your life away. You never see them, but the the amenities you take for granted, they’re the people making it happen. Now ridicule away!!!

Not ridiculing at all. But what is your solution to that, NWOSlave? Or is that the best you think life has to offer?

Fembot
Fembot
8 years ago

Also, I understand that doing hard physical labor for decades takes a huge toll on the human body, and NWO might just be in pain and exhausted all of the time (and cranky). A man needs to be able to retire, and get decent, affordable health care, and spend his senior years building birdhouses and shit. I think it is sad that so many people can’t, but it’s not the fault of stay at home wives and mothers.

Bee
Bee
8 years ago

So, going back to Ruby (I’m catching up here): Prisoners who are in prison for rape, child molestation, and incest have told me stories about being raped and molested as little boys.

I have to wonder whether Ruby finds it, like, retroactively hilarious that these abusers were once young children who were raped? Does it matter that the extreme trauma of something like, oh say, being raped as a young child, can affect a person’s life in ways like that person being more likely to being abused in the future, more likely to become addicted, or more likely to be an abuser?

I mean, I suspect I know the answers that a total piece of shit would give.

VoIP
VoIP
8 years ago

NWO:

I was the only one who could get my niece to eat dinner so every night that’s what I’d do. I taught all of them to play chess. A few times my vacation consisted of staying home and watching the kids, (they were considered all of our kids) while my sister went on vacation…There is not one day of work I wouldn’t trade for one day at home, ever…

Thank you for your honest, respectful answer. It sounds like you had a lot of fun with your niece and nephews. That’s great. You may not believe this, but the Manboobzers like to see you happy. One of the things that really gets us about you is that you don’t seem to enjoy anything. I’m glad you enjoy this.

Another thing I’d like to point out is that you obviously really enjoyed things that men aren’t “supposed to” enjoy in our culture, namely hanging out with kids, at home. That’s great! It’s OK that that’s what you like. It sounds like you really envy stay-at-home parents. I, on the other hand, enjoy working with my hands–my favorite job ever was in a paper factory.

But the people who are fighting so other men can take care of children without feeling ashamed, and women can work in paper factories without being shunned, are feminists. MRAs are the ones who are trying to enforce a “one-size-fits-all” masculinity where men can’t stay home, even if they want to. They are working against the things that make you happy. I’m sorry that they’ve suckered you into supporting them.

I’d like to ask you a few things, though. What did you do when the kids got sick? Did you stay up with them all night? If so, did you have to do anything important the next day? Did the tough decisions fall on you? Was this hard?

Because your characterization of this experience as a “vacation”–and your only mentioning the fun times, and not the bad times–lead me to believe that you saw child care as something people can just walk away from if they want to. That’s not the case for everyone.

VoIP
VoIP
8 years ago

Unimaginative:

(Although that bit about your older niece screaming for 20 minutes is making my back-brain go HMMMM, what’s up with that?)

Meh, he just said it “seemed like” 20 minutes. Little kids can shriek when they really want to, and even a few seconds of that can seem like forever.

Fembot

Also, I understand that doing hard physical labor for decades takes a huge toll on the human body, and NWO might just be in pain and exhausted all of the time (and cranky).

Oh boy, yes. When my grandfather (my dad’s dad) was an old man, he couldn’t raise his hands past his shoulder any more—my dad had to put his coat on for him every morning at dawn. On the other hand, my mother also did a lot of heavy physical work, caring for her younger siblings and, later, us; by the time I was in my teens, her wrists were so bad that she was in constant pain.

Two people, both worked into the ground, but one did work marked “masculine” (he sold fruits and vegetables out of a cart in New York) and one did work marked “feminine” (child care)—guess who gets typed as a Stalwart Hero of Labor, and who’s just doing what’s expected?

indifferentsky
8 years ago

” I may even chuckle about it.” -Ruby

No.
You are disrespecting the victims of the person you are chuckling about. I know that you won’t understand that, but… I’m putting it out there.

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2011/10/world-of-warcraft-text-murder-201110

Feeling like you want these monsters to go through what they put someone through might be understandable, read this. HOWEVER, chuckle away and think of the perps described in this article.

Congrats you have just joined their ranks. There is nothing but sadness in anger that is appropriate in my opinion. Taken together with your libertarian madness, Ruby, and YUCK.

I will admit I resent to scrolling through threads and seeing endless Ruby comments, so I’m always debating if I should say what I think about you or not. But there it is. You’ve got room to grow in some important ways in my opinion.

At least you don’t seem overly sensitive to the criticisms you get here
LOL.

Made myself laugh.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
8 years ago

If you really, really want to be a stay at home caregiver, become a nanny. Granted, you won’t make much pay, and chances are pretty good that you’ll be disrespected and treated poorly. But otherwise, it’s a life of bliss for you. Go for it.

That’s what I think. NWO views cleaning bathrooms and changing diapers as a vacation. If that’s the case, he would probably be very happy as a maid or a daycare owner. The pay is very low and there is zero prestige, but at least he would be doing what he loves.

Now at a daycare, you’ll still have to deal with difficult customers. I used to work at a daycare and I’ve watched kids out of my home. One of my biggest gripes is how parents will bring a child who is very sick and try to downplay it with “Oh sure he has a 104 degree fever, but it’s just teething”. I notice white spots on the child’s throat, the child can’t hold anything down, so I’ll call the parents, and they’ll be like “I’m busy at work. Give him a cough drop and it will be fine”. I realize bosses can be hard on parents, but at the same time it’s not fair to the daycare worker or the other children to pretend not to notice strep throat or pneumonia. Sorry, rant over.

NWO says Philadelphia is horrible. I can’t be a judge on that, because my views of the city are based on seeing the Liberty Bell in movies. I do know that it is depressing, though, to live in the middle of a rough area. I remember describing my neighborhood last year as looking like a landfill or war zone. While I wouldn’t complain about it, it was a downer. So I can see where he’s coming from.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
8 years ago

I’d like to ask you a few things, though. What did you do when the kids got sick? Did you stay up with them all night? If so, did you have to do anything important the next day? Did the tough decisions fall on you? Was this hard?

Because your characterization of this experience as a “vacation”–and your only mentioning the fun times, and not the bad times–lead me to believe that you saw child care as something people can just walk away from if they want to. That’s not the case for everyone.

I’m wondering about this, too. NWO didn’t have all of the responsibilities that come from being a full time caregiver. Parenting has easy times and hard times. It’s one thing to do all the fun stuff like playing frisbee at the park, and another to be the one who does the harder things like cleaning up after a toddler finds a tube of lipstick and uses it to make art on the walls and furniture. It’s a lot like frog gigging. My brother and his buddies would go out at night with flashlights and gigs killing frogs and putting them in a bucket. When he brought them home, it was Mom and I who had to wash the bodies, cut off the legs, pull off the skin, and either fry the legs or store them for later. For the guys, the job was fun and easy. For us women, it was all work, all mess, and no fun.

Hershele Ostropoler
8 years ago

Really, the “quote mining”/”out of context” excuse requires that the context be specifically an indication that the person doesn’t believe it. Like the Dworkin quote where the context is “my opponents would accuse me of saying X, but that’s not what I believe.”

NWO:

@hellkell
“NWO, today celebrates the Declaration of Independence, you idiot.”

Ya mean from the international bankers? We done lost that battle. Think Woodrow Wilson.

What country is slavey actually from? If I were to point to that country on a map, what name would the map use for the country I was pointing at?

Because he doesn’t seem to have heard of the Declaration of Independence. Like, he seems to think it’s something hellkell made up. Though I suppose the fact that I linked to it is further NWO-evidence that it doesn’t exist, since as we know, anything that has a source is false.

Alternatively, he’s so used to his knee-jerk pitiable attmpts at mockery and sarcasm that he doesn’t even pay attention to the topic at hand.

Fembot:

In Owlyverse, those things only take 30 minutes, maximum. And doing laundry for a family of four is no more time consuming than doing laundry for a bachelor.

It’s not.

You just have to do it more often.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
8 years ago

Fembot:

In Owlyverse, those things only take 30 minutes, maximum. And doing laundry for a family of four is no more time consuming than doing laundry for a bachelor.

It’s not.

You just have to do it more often.

Um, Hershele, doing something more often usually consumes more time than doing that same thing once.