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Working in the quote mine, going down down

“I’ve found another incredibly dopey statement from JohnTheOther!”

So our blabby friend JohnTheOther has an especially blabby piece up on A Voice for Men at the moment. Its ostensible subject: the pure eeeevil of unnamed anti-MRAs who misrepresent the World’s Greatest 21st Century Human Rights Movement –  the Men’s Rights Movement, that is – through the eeevil practice of “quote mining.”

I didn’t read the whole thing. Mr. TheOther is not what you’d call an efficient writer. Here are a few quotes mined from the article more or less at random that I think will give you a good idea of his, um, style:

Biology, or indeed, evolutionary theory is not really the topic of this discussion, rather it is provided here as example of a rhetorical practice increasingly common among opponents of a small but growing human rights movement. …

 The developing practice in opposition to human rights, of quote-mining goes beyond pathetic, into the realm of craven, futile depravity. …

However, it seems that no matter how many times it is explained that a thing formed from (bad) ideas – an ideology, and a group of people, identifiable by sex, are two distinct things, gender ideologues continue to conflate them. …

I don’t know if any of this makes any more sense in context, as I didn’t read the context. Let’s continue:

A year ago, I wrote an article focusing on the necessary public repudiation of violence, and the responsibility of open opposition to those who advocated or promoted a climate of acceptable violence, including those who openly advocate murder, such as a group of swedish feminists, and eugenics advocates on the squalid radical-hub. Statements from my original piece were quoted by at least one amoral zombie, and reframed to present my view as one which called for violence.

Of course, the author of those yellow pixels might not have realized that the original article, along with it’s unambiguous opposition to violence was posted on a site with substantially higher traffic than his own. The craven and stupid dishonesty of the quote-miner was apparent to all but a few, blinded by their own ideological goggles.

Oh, wait, I think those last two paragraphs were supposed to be about me. And I think they were supposed to refer to this post of mine, which took a look at a post of his that defended A Voice for Men’s “outing” of a group of Swedish feminists that the AVFM crew had decided, on the basis of a brief video promoting a theatrical production, were “murder advocates.” His post contained the following (unedited) paragraphs.

That’s right manboob, identifying a group of self-declared murder advocates to the public is more important than protecting those murder advocates from the consequences of advocating murder.

In the truth-is-fiction world of Futrelle’s mind, the men’s right advocates calling for public identification of a hate organization have been transmogrified into promoters of violence.

And what if they get killed David? What if rather than be arrested – as promoters of hate, and public advocates of murder, what if these depraved and murderous female supremacists come to harm at the hands of a citizen. If that happens, it will mean that a society’s system of law, designed to prevent hate organizations, and to allow redress of grievance through non violent due process is gone, wiped out by your ideology of violence and hate. That’s what you’re defending, David.

In my post, I quoted the final paragraph; here I have included the two preceding grafs to give it a bit more, what’s that word, context.

Of course, a couple of paragraphs by themselves are still kind of “out of context” I guess. Since I am pretty sure no one would like it if I simply pasted in the entire post from JtO here, I will instead direct you to his original post, here. You may make of it what you wish. I rather doubt that you will see it as a clearheaded treatise of nonviolence. Especially with that line: “And what if they get killed David?” (Which you can read in context above, or, again, in his original post. Let me link to it a sixth time here, just to make sure you know how to find his original words in context. Oops, that’s seven times now)

Interesting that a master debater of Mr. TheOther’s caliber somehow forgot to provide even one link to the controversy he was referring to, so people might be able to see for themselves what had happened, and judge his claims accordingly. I wonder why that might be?

I’ll skip the next bit in Mr. TheOther’s latest post, in which Mr.TheOther suggests that an opponent of his might have taken a quote of his out of context in a way that  makes him look racist and homophobic. But since he offers no links to the actual discussion, there’s no way of judging whether this particular quote-mining claim is true. (Perhaps this discussion on the Men’s Rights subreddit could shed some light on it?)

In any case, if we put this particular discussion in a broader, er, context, there is certainly ample evidence of homophobia amongst the A Voice for Men crowd, as I have pointed out here and here. (Protip: If you want to convince people you are not homophobic, you should probably not feature a video mocking “lesbo-bos” in the sidebar of the site you help to run.)

Anyway, this next bit of his definitely has something or other to do with me:

Bottom feeding quote miners indulging in snarky feats of futrelian deceit likely do win rhetorical brownie points, at least when seen through their own ideological goggles. But they are cementing their own a public persona which will wear about as comfortably as klan robes do at a NAACP meeting. The altered landscape this movement is building is not someday, it is now, and it is coming faster all the time.

Uh, dude, my last name has two L’s in it. It should be “Futrellian deceit.” If you’re going to turn my name into a slur, at least spell it correctly.

For individuals in opposition to human rights of men and boys now, whether through lying, repetition of old, false dogmas, or the craven tactic of mis-represented and mis-attributed meaning, the comfort of a formerly one-sided monologue is over. The public squirming we see in attempts to render MRA voices silent or apologetic will escalate before it abates. But that’s okay.

Hey, Mr. TheOther. If you really want to prove my “futrelian” or even my “Futrellian” deceit, how about this: provide specific examples of me taking something you or some other MRA has written out of context in a way that distorts its meaning.

For your convenience, you can find all the Man Boobz posts that reference you here and here.

And for anyone who now has the song “Working In the Coal Mine” stuck in their head, here’s the Lee Dorsey original:

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nwoslave
12 years ago

Nice video, Dave. Doesn’t the sight of all those men oppressing women by forcing them to stay home and do domestic work just turn your stomach? No matter how many millenia you go back it’s just more of the same. Men living the good life while women suffer. No wonder history is being rewritten as women’s oppression.

Anyway, Happy 4th of July. Let’s all celebrate the constitution, a document designed to limit the size, scope and power the government has over people.

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
12 years ago

Cementing personas? Depravity!

Leeloo ftw! you made excellent sense out of nonsense.

2-D Man
2-D Man
12 years ago

As for the “quote-mining,” all I can say is that literally the only thing that isn’t quote-mining would be copy-pasting entire articles, and that would be very tedious to read

Well, Cliff, there’s an important difference between quoting and quote-mining. Here’s a quote from Fembot:

Yeah, JtO’s writing style is all about posturing, using fancy language to conceal the fact that nothing he says has any substance.

And here’s the quote-mine:

Yeah, JtO’s writing style is all about … substance.

Technically, both are quotes, but one of them expresses the opposite of Fembot’s idea. It’s generally understood that a quote isn’t going to copy the whole article.

hellkell
hellkell
12 years ago

NWO, today celebrates the Declaration of Independence, you idiot.

Cliff Pervocracy
12 years ago

2-D Man – That’s not quote-mining. That’s just rearranging someone’s words. And I’ve never seen David do that.

…Have you? Examples are welcome.

Examples where he’s done this and you actually disagree with the implication are extra-welcome. Otherwise you’re just playing the “how dare you make us sound like misogynists, by the way women still suck” game.

cloudiah
12 years ago

Leeloo is marvelous. Check out the story she wrote in response to some Gor-porn that was posted over on the A Voice for Men-endorsed Artistry Against Misandry site:
http://artistryforfeminismandkittens.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/from-our-e-book-series/

(I am mining the blog & forums, not for out of context quotes, but for some of the silly, creative, and delightful content that gets created here — properly credited of course. There are just too many wonderful limericks, drawings, and stories created here that deserve better than to be lost in the comments pages. If you have anything to nominate, message me over on the forums.)

cloudiah
12 years ago

Correction: _stories_ not _story_. Leeloo wrote 2 stories on the forums, plus one snippet. All are hilarious. All hail Leeloo!!!

Naira
Naira
12 years ago

@ Ithiliana:

But I’m sure there’s men not in those pictures who are doing the real work while the women pose for pictures. Since women are vain.

I’m a little late to the game on this…there’s not really much new sarcasm I can add to the conversation.

I’m patiently awaiting the day, Ithiliana, when I get to have your headaches in grading papers. Starting my doctoral work in the fall, so hopefully that day is not too far off. I will take your wisdom about undergrad papers to heart and invest in red pens. Maybe have some discussions on what constitutes a good analysis paper.

darksidecat
12 years ago

OK,,, You really have to decide what gender you are.

Nope, not at all.

Anyway, Happy 4th of July. Let’s all celebrate the constitution, a document designed to limit the size, scope and power the government has over people.

You’re not good with history, are you? Also, my only ancestors that were here at the time are mentioned in the Constitution as “excluding Indians, not taxed”, it didn’t apply to them.

Freitag
Freitag
12 years ago

Oh, no. Don’t use red pens. It freaks them out to see red ink on their papers. Use pencil. You can make suggestions/corrections and edit them if you need to. Red ink is scary for undergrads who are dealing with freshman writing and rhetoric classes.

Shadow
Shadow
12 years ago

Are we being threatened with cement shoes?

Re: 2D Man

I think he was talking in the abstract of quote vs quote-mining, and didn’t catch Cliff’s sarcasm

Ithiliana
12 years ago

Re; commenting on papers.

I never used red pens, but my students found green and purple comments intimidating as heck. For years, though, I’ve been using Mark up for typing in comments on drafts.

The major thing is revision–which makes for much more work for everybody, but better results in the end (studies have shown that if a teacher writes comments but then puts a grade on the bottom, or top, the comments are never read!)

Naira
Naira
12 years ago

True, true. Maybe I’ll just take it as an excuse to use purple pens. Distinct enough from black ink from a printer AND my favorite color. Though pencil is a good idea, since I occasionally have to go back and edit myself. No one needs purple scratch-outs all over their paper.

If critical analysis is a problem, I’d LIKE to be able to have discussions on what makes good analysis/critique and give them some practice. As Ithiliana said, it isn’t easy to do. One of my professors did that in class and also specifically said that if you didn’t understand what he was asking for in terms of critique to come to his office hours or make an appointment.

I imagine a lot of people were relieved to be able to ask “WTF?” in private, rather than being the deer in the headlights in a class of 50 or 60 people.

Leeloo Dallas Multipass

And not only was the Constitution passed on July 4th, 1776, but it was signed by representatives from all fifty states, too!

Freitag
Freitag
12 years ago

Try putting the actual grade at the bottom of the last page. That way they can check the grade, see how they did, then read the comments. That’s worked well for me and some of my colleagues.

Freitag
Freitag
12 years ago

Leeloo, will you marry me?

Naira
Naira
12 years ago

I had one professor who made the oddest comments on my papers. One consisted of “excellent” on the final page and then circling a particular sentence and writing out why he agreed with it.

Confidence boosting and fun to read…but not exactly the kind of comments to let me know what I’m doing wrong or even what exactly I’m doing right. I think I’m going to try to stick to “You did this well because of X, Y, and Z that you wrote. Q, R, S can be a little stronger.” Also a lot more useful in the long run.

BlueBee
BlueBee
12 years ago

Is it bad I had no idea what JTO said? Or at least, I have very little idea.
Maybe that’s a good thing.

nwoslave
12 years ago

@hellkell
“NWO, today celebrates the Declaration of Independence, you idiot.”

Ya mean from the international bankers? We done lost that battle. Think Woodrow Wilson.

nwoslave
12 years ago

@Ithiliana
“@NWO: images of women miners!”

So few lucky women who weren’t oppressed.

I still say all men should stay at home and do all the cooking, cleaning and childcare for the next 5000 years while women do everything else. We men want to feel the oppression for the next five millenia.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
12 years ago

I had a teacher who, in response to a student mentioning “Oh, you bled all over my paper” went from using red pen to purple. Purple ink is hard to read, yo! Pick whatever colour is different from the one the student used, is all, but make it easy to read. And whatever you do, DON’T use metallic, rainbow-coloured ink.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
12 years ago

And note that students can erase pencil, too, which might become problematical. (I’m a little cynical about students.)

Molly Moon
Molly Moon
12 years ago

Naira: I had the same experience in the last English class I took. Every paper I got a perfect score, so every paper I would bullshit a little more than the last to see how much I could get away with, till the final paper which I completely phoned in and still got an A. It was nice because I’d been worried about passing (I have a tendency to just stop going to class a month in), but I would have liked some semblance of guidance.