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Men’s Rights Redditors angry that reality is reality. (Murder statistics edition.)

Over on the Men’s Rights subreddit, mgriff2k4 is angry that the picture to the right here showed up on his computer screen. Sorry, make that fucking angry. “Did this really just fucking pop up on my news feed?” he asks in the title of his post, adding in a comment: “sorry about the word “fucking” but im really pissed off about this.”

Why is he angry? Presumably, he assumes the statistic is untrue, and that it unfairly paints men as evil murderers.

Luckily, in this Age of the Internet it is trivially easy to find out whether statistics like this are true. It involves something called “Google.” mgriff2k4 did not bother to avail himself of this easy-to-use research tool.

But I did. In less than 5 minutes, I confirmed that this factoid is indeed true, at least according to the most recent figures on gender and homicide found on the Department of Justice’s web site, drawn from FBI data covering the years from 1976-2005. According to the FBI, 30% of women who are murdered are murdered by “intimates.” Roughly 20% are killed by husbands or ex-husbands; 10% by boyfriends or girlfriends. (In the overwhelming majority of cases the murderers are boyfriends, not girlfriends; men are ten times more likely to commit murder than women.)

While four times as many men are murdered than women, only 5% of murdered men are killed by “intimates.” Men kill women more than twice as often as women kill men. Women suffer far more serious injuries from domestic violence than men do; so it is not altogether unexpected that they are also far more likely to be murdered by intimates.

If you want to see what this means on a human level, I suggest you take a look at the excellent if depressing web site Domestic Violence Crime Watch, which links to stories in which men are the perpetrators, and in which men are the victims. There are far more of those in the former category than in the latter.

I should note that (as of this writing) one commenter in the thread also found his way to the DOJ site, and noted that men were more likely to be killed by strangers or acquaintances. But he didn’t bother to tell mkgriff2k4 that the sign in the picture was in fact accurate.

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nwoslave
9 years ago

@Cliff Pervocracy
“A man may not injure a woman or, through inaction, allow a woman to come to harm.”

“…That sounds pretty good actually?”

I knew it would. A man sacrificing his life for a woman is always good. Mooks are dispensible, women are indispensible. Born to serve.

katz
9 years ago

You have to admit, that statement was a classic.

He cracks himself up!

OT: I am sad to note that YouTube doesn’t have that clip from Robin Hood: Men in Tights of King Richard saying “From now on, all toilets in the kingdom shall be called Johns!”

Cliff Pervocracy
9 years ago

I knew it would. A man sacrificing his life for a woman is always good. Mooks are dispensible, women are indispensible. Born to serve.

Although I’m impressed that you know about Asimov (I’m impressed that you know how to use your keyboard), I think it’s fucking hilarious you got “born to serve” from “don’t hurt people.”

You are a SLAAAAVE to not-committing-assault, you poor thing.

nwoslave
9 years ago

@Hippodameia
“You’re still screaming that life is unfair because you have to put actual effort into getting things you want.”

The difference is, a woman backed by the State has the right of motherhood. A man has to fight for the right of fatherhood against the State and a woman, he will lose the majority of times. Just another mook whose only value to society is as a resource to a woman and, “her” family. State endorsed kidnapping and extortion.

Pam
Pam
9 years ago

There are also multiple discussions around men and feminism. Come and visit.

Perhaps those who do take you up on your offer to come and visit ought to introduce themselves “John Anderson style”, as I’m certain that the warmest of welcomes would ensue.

nwoslave
9 years ago

@Cliff Pervocracy
“You are a SLAAAAVE to not-committing-assault, you poor thing.”

Or the inaction of not placing my life on the line to save the massah. Don’t forget about the second half of the sentence.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Wow, John turned into a nasty little asshole when his ass wasn’t kissed. That took no time at all. These guys really think we can’t see that nasty edge before it show up and throws itself a parade, don’t they?

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

Or the inaction of not placing my life on the line to save the massah

Dude, stop with the “massah” bullshit, it’s racist as fuck! You can convey ur pansy-ass whining just fine without showiing your racist ass simultaneously. Jesus fuck!

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

NWO can no more divorce himself from his racism than he can from his sexism, Shadow. Some people really ARE that bad.

cloudiah
9 years ago

Actually Shadow, I am pretty sure Owly can’t whine without showing his racist ass. It seems to display itself with regularity.

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

@hellkell & cloudiah

True dat. I should know better than to expect human decency from Owly.

Cliff Pervocracy
9 years ago

Or the inaction of not placing my life on the line to save the massah.

Do you get how racist, in addition to plain old stupid, it is to say that while you’re exercising your free speech in your private home while enjoying a nice day off?

Go ahead and tell me how many of those things actual, non-self-pitying-metaphor slaves got–or get–to enjoy.

nwoslave
9 years ago

Have you fine ladies seen what’s included in the mandatory obamacare package? It’s like some totally fine communist/feminist work. It is brilliant. Every man will be a criminal in nothing flat. This’ll be part of your Intimate Partner Violence Screening, which’ll be part of you yearly or whatever check up.

http://www.uspreventiveservicestaskforce.org/draftrec2.htm

So I looked at just one of the many way’s women will be checked and questioned about IPV. HITS I was able to access.

http://www.orchd.com/violence/documents/HITS_eng.pdf

There are 4 categories

How often does your partner?
Never = 1
Rarely = 2
Sometimes =3
Fairly often =4
Frequently =5

1. Physically hurt you O O O O O
2. Insult or talk down to you O O O O O
3. Threaten you with harm O O O O O
4. Scream or curse at you O O O O O

Each item is scored from 1-5, A score of greater than 10 is considered positive.

So for the four questions even if a woman answers never on all of them a man has a default number of “4” So from a starting position of total defferment to a woman, never talking back, never raising ones voice, never cursing. Nothing. A man is already 40% guilty. Never = 1, 4 questions = 40% on his way to 100% guilty. Pretty skeevy shit, huh?

So say you go in for your yearly exam and you’re asked the questions. Now keep in mind it doesn’t ask or care if you started it or it was mutual, it’s just did “he” do any of the above.

So we’ll say, as in all relationships there are rocky patches there was one fight during the year. So physical hurting is rarely, that’s a 2. You hurt him as well, but that doesn’t matter.

Insult or talk down, you innocently answer, “sometimes” that’s a 3.

Threaten with harm, you regail them with a tale about how he said, “sometimes I could just slap you” It was all hot air and you laughed about it. That’s a 2.

Scream or curse at you. Well you gals were just bragging the other day about sayin fuckity, fuck, fuck. So you say yeah, whenever he gets mad he says fuck a lot. that’ll be fairly often. That’s a 4.

2+3+2+4=11. Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! Hubby/boyfriend is going to at least anger management, maybe prison or a little cooling off in the big house. He hates you now by the way and will certainly never trust you again.

That’s the one I could access, there’s many more of these tests on top of that. Here’s what’s going to happen. Women who are genuinely abused will answer never to all questions for fear of losing and/or angering hubby/boyfriend. A woman might flippantly say he curses all the time which is a 5 and also insults sometimes is a 3. Threat of violence and actual violence are nevers, which is still a 2, (1+1). that’s a 10. Guilty.

Men aren’t going to know their girlfriend/wife in no way had any intention of accusing him of DV. In fact that was the farthest thing from her mind. What they will know is that they were arrested for DV and their wife/girlfriend did it. They will never trust her again, and they’ll begin to see all women as distrustful.

How’s that law workin out for you gals now? Men are 40% guilty out of the gate. I shudder to think what the rest of the tests involve, or the line of questioning. Tell me again how feminism isn’t a hate movement. All these questionaires came from womens organizations. So where can the blame go?

PsychoDan
PsychoDan
9 years ago

So I’d like to amend last night’s numbers discussion to say that the 3:2 ratio actually is completely useless, thanks to an absolutely huge amount of rounding error. Even the 2:1 we came up with is badly off; using the actual raw numbers, it’s even more than 3:1.

It seems John is gone, but just in case, a couple things for him: first, regarding the rape stats you’ve brought up a couple times, you’re being disingenuous. You’re probably being intentionally disingenuous, but just in case you’re just parroting the MRA talking point without examining it, the problem is that you’re entirely ignoring the lifetime numbers because they don’t say what you want them to, and acting like the 12 month numbers are the only ones that are relevant. If you’d like to try to explain why that should be the case, be my guest.

And regarding the custody thing, it is, in fact, a problem that men think they can’t get custody when they want it, and so don’t try to fight for it. If that is indeed why so few men try to get custody, it’s a real issue. But the MRM is making it worse by helping to convince those men that they don’t have a chance in the first place. As others have said, they could actually make a real difference by fighting that misconception rather than spreading it. But because the MRM is a reactionary movement against feminism, rather than an actual civil rights movement, they won’t bother because it doesn’t further their real goals.

nwoslave
9 years ago

@Cliff Pervocracy
“Go ahead and tell me how many of those things actual, non-self-pitying-metaphor slaves got–or get–to enjoy.”

I don’t know. But neither does anyone whose alive have first hand knowlege. Do you have first hand knowlege? I’m closer to slavery than you think, ancestrywise anyway. My father, as a boy and his entire family was sold into indetured servitude to a texas farmer for five years for the boatride over from war torn Europe. My mothers side was more of the same although from WWI. As far as I know, I come from a long line of peasant farmers who were continually oppressed.

Aaaaaaaand, I’m the only one here who isn’t a racist. The prevailing consensus here might be that it’s just ducky to ridicule white men, but that’s still racism. Also, placing ones own lineage as being untouchable to criticism is supremacy and racist.

So you see, I come from a long line of indentured serfs. As far as I know, the most powerful ancestors I have are a bunch of failed beet farmers from some poverty stricken area of central eastern Europe working as sharecroppers for some communist usurper.

nwoslave
9 years ago

@PsychoDan
“So I’d like to amend last night’s numbers discussion to say that the 3:2 ratio actually is completely useless, thanks to an absolutely huge amount of rounding error. Even the 2:1 we came up with is badly off; using the actual raw numbers, it’s even more than 3:1.”

Well, when one half of the population is privileged and the other half is punished that’s what’ll happen. Note my above post about IPV and Obamacare. Men are 40% guilty from the word go. Women are 0% guilty and stay that way. This will definitely be the final nail in the feminist/communist coffin for the good old USSA.

Anti-Anti-Manboobz
9 years ago

Men are 40% guilty out of the gate.

Credit where it’s due: 4/10 is 40%.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
9 years ago

“Physically hurt you; insult or talk down to you; threaten you with harm; scream or curse at you” are all abusive behaviours. They are not the same things as “total defferment to a woman, never talking back, never raising ones voice, never cursing.”

Can you really not imagine interacting with another human being without being a complete asshole OR a complete doormat?

What is wrong with you?

And I’ve seen this kind of survey before. It may say a score of 10 is a sign of problems, but it probably also says something like a score of 4 is a sign of a healthy relationship.

Fembot
Fembot
9 years ago

“As far as I know, I come from a long line of peasant farmers who were continually oppressed.”

Being oppressed by poverty and being oppressed for the color of your skin are not the same thing. Imagine being discriminated against for your race, then forced to endure excrutiating poverty on top of that.

Not every white male in the history of the world lived a privileged life atop a mountain of silk cushions, I think we all know that. But most were and are far better off than minorities, poor or not. Yes, people can be racist against whites. But whites do not have to endure institutional racism, because the institution is white. Seeing your precious privilege diminish does not equal oppression.

I’m not even well read or an expert on race but I at least know that much.

Fembot
Fembot
9 years ago

And it is possible to have an argument or disagreement with your partner without yelling, insulting them, hitting them, or threatening them. I don’t think NWO has any idea what a healthy relationship looks like, or if there even is such a thing.

Cliff Pervocracy
9 years ago

Each item is scored from 1-5, A score of greater than 10 is considered positive.

So for the four questions even if a woman answers never on all of them a man has a default number of “4″ So from a starting position of total defferment to a woman, never talking back, never raising ones voice, never cursing. Nothing. A man is already 40% guilty. Never = 1, 4 questions = 40% on his way to 100% guilty. Pretty skeevy shit, huh?

NWO, I wish you were my high school math teacher.

…Wait, no, considering how you get about high school girls (I wore very whorish t-shirts and jeans), no, I take that back.

I don’t know. But neither does anyone whose alive have first hand knowlege. Do you have first hand knowlege?

Is he… is he trying to deny slavery? Is this like the Holocaust denial thing but even more… whaaa? This is some next-level shit.0

I’m closer to slavery than you think, ancestrywise anyway. My father, as a boy and his entire family was sold into indetured servitude to a texas farmer for five years for the boatride over from war torn Europe.

Your father was a white indentured servant in the 1940s???

I mean, it’s not like impossible, human trafficking certainly still happens to this day, but, um. Yeah. Um.

Cliff Pervocracy
9 years ago

2+3+2+4=11. Guilty! Guilty! Guilty! Hubby/boyfriend is going to at least anger management, maybe prison or a little cooling off in the big house.

I like how NWO-land every little self-test or illustration or website about domestic violence is literally a law.

Cliff Pervocracy
9 years ago

Oh, and y’know, racism against black people is technically still a form of racism. I know racism against white people gets all the press, but let’s not forget the other kinds.

Shadow
Shadow
9 years ago

Aaaaaaaand, I’m the only one here who isn’t a racist. The prevailing consensus here might be that it’s just ducky to ridicule white men, but that’s still racism. Also, placing ones own lineage as being untouchable to criticism is supremacy and racist.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH! “I’m the only one that isn’t racist because I never say racist shit about White people”!! Of course people here don’t denigrate White people as a race, but your victim complex’ll never understand that anyways.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
9 years ago

Maybe Slavey thinks that the only slaves ever were the black ones who were technically emancipated after the US civil war. Maybe he’s completely unaware of the slaves who exist in the world today.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

NWO has some balls to claim he’s close to slavery. NWO, you are a lying liar who lies.

cloudiah
9 years ago

Owly knows how to search, he just doesn’t know how to interpret what he finds.

Scores on the HITS questionnaire range from 4-20, but only scores greater than 10 are considered cause for concern. In other words, if you score from 4 to 10, the relationship is not identified as abusive. Just to make Owly’s brain explode, a score of 10 out of a possible 20 is 100% innocent of IPV not 50% guilty! (I know, that makes no sense, but I wanted to throw him a bone.)

It’s a pretty rough diagnostic tool. A person could therefore report that their partner fairly often hurts them (4) AND fairly often threatens them with harm (4), but if they also report that they never insult (1) or scream (1) at them — Yahtzee! It’s not an abusive relationship. Of course normally those behaviors tend to occur in concert, which is why it is considered a reasonably effective screening test.

What interventions are recommended when a screening indicates there MAY be abuse? The answer is in one of Owly’s links:

Evidence from randomized trials support a variety of interventions, including counseling, home visits, referrals to community services, and mentoring support for women of childbearing age. Depending on the type of intervention, these services may be provided by clinicians, nurses, social workers, nonclinician mentors, or community workers. Counseling generally includes information on safety behaviors and community resources. In addition to counseling, home visits may include emotional support, education on problem solving strategies, and parenting support. One study used a 20-minute nurse case management protocol focusing on a safety plan, supportive care, and guided referrals. No intervention studies were identified for elderly or vulnerable adults. See below for suggestions for practice in this population.

You know what things are NOT recommended as interventions?

Hubby/boyfriend is going to at least anger management, maybe prison or a little cooling off in the big house.

I do not know why this recommendation is limited to women of childbearing age, especially since it is not a costly screening. I can’t think of any reason not to extend the screening and interventions to men. Even if women suffer more serious health risks than men do from IPV, men do suffer too. Oh, but wait — Owly isn’t in favor of extending health care to men, since that would be big, bad government taking care of people. What he IS in favor of is denying it to women. My bad! Carry on.

Snowy
Snowy
9 years ago

Unimaginative, don’t forget white indentured servants to texas farmers in the 1940’s like NWO’s father.

nwoslave
9 years ago

@Unimaginative
“Physically hurt you; insult or talk down to you; threaten you with harm; scream or curse at you” are all abusive behaviours. They are not the same things as “total defferment to a woman, never talking back, never raising ones voice, never cursing.”

Several problems exist.
1) it’s mandatory. The question is why? There’s no reason other than to stir up trouble where none existed.
2) it’s a one way street. Only women are tested and there’s many more tests I’ve yet to even see.
3) Since the rules are dictated by the State, what’s to stop the State from adding another line/s of questions?
Example; Destruction of property, throws vase.
Example; Makes light of your opinion.
Example; Assumes authority over situations.

A line/s of questioning have been added, yet the same criteria remains the same. Who can challenge? The rules are dictated. Now a man might be at 50%, 60% or 70% guilt out of the gate.

Insults are not violence.
Talking down to is not violence.
Cursing is not violence.
Even threats are not violence.

By the very criteria laid out everyone of you is guilty of DV against me. Everyone of you have cursed at me frequently and talked down to me and insulted me frequently. 5 + 5 + 1 +1 = 12. If the criteria used can determine guilt of DV for people who have never even seen each other how can it ever be used to dictate actual violence?

If no actual violence has taken place between any of us, then no violence has taken place between couples.

There are five more sections to these question’s that will be mandatory for your yearly check up. If they’re as bad as this one, entire States will have to be turned into concentration camps to hold all the men.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
9 years ago

John —

“I’m not disputing the 150% number at all. I hope I didn’t leave that impression. My question was how equal do the numbers have to be before something becomes gender neutral. Do they have to be dead even? Let’s look at the CDC stats between rape and forced to penetrate. Let’s assume that the numbers are equal (1.27 vs 1.267) for math’s sake. We can even factor out that about 20% of the forced to penetrate is a male perpetrator (I know that genders it, but indulge me), we would get a ratio of 5:4. 55% to 45% if you’re looking at percentages of a whole. What about 40% and 60%?”

Did you read that statistical analysis I did for Arks? The one looking at that very data and explaining why you can’t use 12-month data? Here’s an analogy, you can’t look at 12-month data and determine whether a region is polio free, the region needs to have had 0 cases of polio for a full 12 months to get a tentative “probably”, iirc it’s 5 years to be declared definitely for sure polio free — because anomalous years happen. It’d be like determining the national SAT average from the scores of one graduating class, at one school, it just doesn’t work, statistics do not generalize like that. Which is also why you have to use only “forced to penetrate” and not “rape” for the male victims — there were not enough cases of male rape in those 12-months to do statistics on. But hey, noting that we’re again excluding male rape victims because we want to talk about a specific type of male rape, let’s do some math!

Female rape victims, 12-month data — 1,270,000 // 5.6%
Male “made to penetrate” (rape) victims, 12-month data — 1,267,000 // 1.1%

No, you can not fucking round, because “Rounded to the nearest thousand.” — they already did. We’ve had enough rounding errors without intentionally inducing more. Yes the raw numbers are similar, but you need to use the weighted percents because I don’t have a fucking clue what percent of the student participants were female, it appears to be many more than were male though.

If female, chance of being raped in those 12 months = 5.6%
If male, chance of being forced to penetrate in those 12 months = 1.1%
If male, chance of being raped, by CDC definition, in those 12 months = 0, because the 12 month data is too small a sample.

What were you arguing again? Something ignoring half of what the CDC said on the same page as those numbers? But let’s factor this by gender of perpetrator anyways.

“For female rape victims, 98.1% reported only male perpetrators.”
“For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims reported only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (79.2%),”

98.1% of 5.6% = .981 * .056 = 0.054936 = 5.5%~
79.2% of 1.1% = .792 * .011 = 0.008712 = 0.9%~

If female, chance of being raped in those 12 months by a man = 5.5%~
If male, chance of being raped in those 12 months by a woman = 0.9%~

That’s just over a 6x risk, as in, women raped by men : men raped by women = 6:1. Any other ways you’d like to try breaking the CDC data? The rate the MRM misuses these numbers I’m going to end up memorizing them.

“Are those number close enough to say that it is a societal problem and not one related to gender or does it still have to be gender related? Since women make up 20% of murder victims, isn’t violence a men’s issue and not a women’s issue? Personally, I think it’s everyone’s issue.”

Those numbers are made up, so no. Regarding the latter question, if you weren’t battling straw feminists, you might’ve noticed we’re generally against all violence — and certainly against the idea that men must prove themselves and never back down from a fight (that’s part of why the male homicide rate is so much higher, stupid fights getting out of control).

Seriously, what about having nudie pics on her computer makes your ex-sister-in-law an unfit parent? Questionably fit since the kid found them, but most of us have walked in on our parents doing it, and after a brief “omgs, need eye bleach!” we’ve survived. You, as the parent, take better steps to prevent it from happening again — not really the same as if she’d, idk, set a nudie pic to the desktop background.

NWO —

Oi, you fail reading today.

1. Physically hurt you O O O O O
2. Insult or talk down to you O O O O O
3. Threaten you with harm O O O O O
4. Scream or curse at you O O O O O

If I called you an asshole unworthy of the time of day, that’d be a sometimes on 4; if I drop a hammer on my foot and yell FUCK! that would not. (And no, I did not just call you an asshole, not any more than I just dropped a hammer on my foot, which I did not)

“Hubby/boyfriend is going to at least anger management, maybe prison or a little cooling off in the big house. He hates you now by the way and will certainly never trust you again.”

Where, pray tell, do you get the impression that this is to be used for more than offering the victim counseling? That’s what “…and provide or refer women who screen positive to intervention services.” means.

Evidence from randomized trials support a variety of interventions, including counseling, home visits, referrals to community services, and mentoring support for women of childbearing age. Depending on the type of intervention, these services may be provided by clinicians, nurses, social workers, nonclinician mentors, or community workers. Counseling generally includes information on safety behaviors and community resources. In addition to counseling, home visits may include emotional support, education on problem solving strategies, and parenting support. One study used a 20-minute nurse case management protocol focusing on a safety plan, supportive care, and guided referrals. No intervention studies were identified for elderly or vulnerable adults. See below for suggestions for practice in this population.

Read that, twice, then get back to me on where it even implies he’d be told, forget arrested.

Unimaginative —

“And I’ve seen this kind of survey before. It may say a score of 10 is a sign of problems, but it probably also says something like a score of 4 is a sign of a healthy relationship.”

It says neither really, what it does say is —

Results: For phase one, Cronbach’s alpha was .80 for the HITS scale. The correlation of HITS and CTS scores was .85. For phase two, the mean HITS scores for office patients and abuse victims were 6.13 and 15.15, respectively. Optimal data analysis revealed that a cut score of 10.5 on the HITS reliably differentiated respondents in the two groups. Using this cut score, 91% of patients and 96% of abuse victims were accurately classified.

In non-geek, that means the average office patient scored 6.13, while the average abuse victim (as ID’ed with another measure) scored 15.15; and that using 10 as a cut-off score has 90%+ valid predictive value. NWO’s arguing about a 9% false positive risk ruining all men everywhere in other words.

Shadow — “You’ll have better luck arguing with goldfish Owly if you’re looking for a blank slate for every post you make” — no he won’t, fish are subject to conditioning like most species, if he taps their tank they’ll start fearing the sit of him. (Contra, if you have treats in a neon red container, they’ll react to neon red like it’s treat time, too cute!)

Hippodameia — “MISANDRY also seems to involve properly understanding math, as this thread’s repeatedly demonstrated.” — that appears correct, yes.

In other news, India’s hit the 12-month polio free mark, so fingers crossed! (And Angola is 3 days shy of doing the same! Progress, it is being had)

cloudiah
9 years ago

One thing I love about this blog is how often it causes me to look shit up. Unlike Owly, I actually read it.

Indentured servitude pretty much ended in the U.S. by 1840, and was outlawed in the rest of the Americas in 1917. The Rise and Fall of Indentured Servitude in the Americas: An Economic Analysis (JSTOR)
See also The End of European Immigrant Servitude in the United States: An Economic Analysis of Market Collapse, 1772-1835 (JSTOR)

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

“So we’ll say, as in all relationships there are rocky patches there was one fight during the year. So physical hurting is rarely, that’s a 2. You hurt him as well, but that doesn’t matter. ”

It really is sad that Slavey thinks that a physical fight that leads to some sort of physical pain/injury is a normal part of every relationship and can be assumed to be happening at least once a year.

nwoslave
9 years ago

@cloudiah
“I can’t think of any reason not to extend the screening and interventions to men.”

I can. Why would I want any woman given a criminal record or possibly imprisoned for cursing, screaming or insulting? There’s a petition to do exactly that, have men screened as well. I certainly won’t sign that. It’s a joke. Imagine how easily and frequently it’ll be abused. Man/woman cheats or somehow infuriates the other party. You tell me what’ll happen.
—————
@Cliff Pervocracy
“Oh, and y’know, racism against black people is technically still a form of racism.”

And show me anywhere where I’ve ever said anything against black people. You forget where I grew up princess. We all hung out together. I was lucky to be able to crawl outta that shithole know as Philadelphia about 10 or so years ago. Just cause the rest you people grew up in cracker country and all you know about the ghetto is from the communist network news doesn’t mean shit. Did you see a black person in national geographic once? What a joke you people are.
—————
“Your father was a white indentured servant in the 1940s???”

That’s right princess, lot’s of people got over here that way. All you little college girls act like your so wise and worldly and educated. You live in little guilded cages immune to the sightest hardship of life. So much so that you consider a slight to your precious feelings unbearable. Oh golly, did a man you deem unworthy try to speak to you? Did a, “partner” dare to disreguard you most valued opinion. DV! DV! DV!
—————
You’re all so blind and stupid as you lead each other around patting yourselves on the back at your acceptance of everything that falls into your narrow, misguided, genderless utopia.

Why not write some more policy, you’ve been doing a bang up job so far. Are there more poor or less poor? Is education better? Is anything better than it was 40 years ago? Fuck no. So every policy you gals have lobbied to have enacted were exactly the wrong thing to do. Guess what these policies are? The exact wrong thing to do. There isn’t one policy women have lobbied for that hasn’t fucked everything up. Not one damn thing.

Snowy
Snowy
9 years ago

Sad and dare I say it… creepy? Because that is pretty creepy. Physically hurting people you’re in a relationship with is not cool.

nwoslave
9 years ago

@Argenti Aertheri

First off, you’re on the wrong link. That page in no way translates to the punishment, which isn’t stated what it’ll be on the HITS site. I know you believe everything the State tells you but sometimes they lie by ommision.

If a man says to a woman, “you stupid bitch, sometimes I just feel like fucking slapping you.” It’s an insult, a curse and an implied threat, (haha). Which makes it a threefer. Items 2, 3, and 4, yet no actual violence has taken place.

“And how often does boyfriend act like this?” The nurse asks. “Oh all the time,” she replies. Does she curse? Does she insult? Does she flippantly say she’d like to slap him? It doesn’t matter. Do you notice a slight discrepancy in the power dynamic. The woman has carte blanche to ridicule, insult, scream, curse and even hit. The man can only cower and never even raise his voice. She is backed by the guns of the State.

A woman can never be guilty under this plan, only a man. Do you find this equitable?

Cliff Pervocracy
9 years ago

My relationship has rocky patches! Like sometimes we have angry words or we get sulky at each other for a couple days. Probably once or twice a year we really yell.

Physically attacking is way the fuck beyond “rocky.”

nwoslave
9 years ago

@Argenti Aertheri

“Results: For phase one, Cronbach’s alpha was .80 for the HITS scale. The correlation of HITS and CTS scores was .85. For phase two, the mean HITS scores for office patients and abuse victims were 6.13 and 15.15, respectively. Optimal data analysis revealed that a cut score of 10.5 on the HITS reliably differentiated respondents in the two groups. Using this cut score, 91% of patients and 96% of abuse victims were accurately classified.”

This means nothing. They dictated what constitutes their version of an, “abuse victim.” So the list they have, which they can add to at their discrection, since their making the rules, can be anything at all. Insulting someone is not abuse, it is not violence.

Everyone of you has insulted me. Has everyone of you been violent to me? No!!!!!!!!! Insults are not violence. Curses are not violence. Raised vioces are not violence. Disagreements are not violence. Violence is violence. Hurt feelings do not constitute being a victim of violence. The only line of any relevance in that test is have you been hit. Nothing else is violence. Grow up.

Cliff Pervocracy
9 years ago

Given that Slavey has said (I think?) that he was engaged, he’s basically admitting he beat his fiancée here.

Polliwog
Polliwog
9 years ago

It really is sad that Slavey thinks that a physical fight that leads to some sort of physical pain/injury is a normal part of every relationship and can be assumed to be happening at least once a year.

Seriously. That line was jaw-dropping, even from him. What the fuck.

NWO, I laugh at you fairly often, but this one just isn’t funny. Healthy relationships do not involve anyone hitting anyone else in anger. Not once a year. Not once a decade. Not EVER. All relationships do have “rocky patches,” but in healthy relationships, a “rocky patch” means things like saying, “you are really getting on my nerves right now,” or “I am frustrated and need some space,” or maybe even, “I’m pretty pissed off at you, and I think you’re being a jerk.” Please get help if you honestly believe a “rough patch” in a relationship can and should entail hitting your partner.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
9 years ago

NWO —

You’re particularly cranky today, can I interest you in some tea? It can be iced if it’s too damned hot for hot tea.

“Even threats are not violence.” — they aren’t legal, and can certainly be a part of verbal abuse. DV includes verbal abuse, please try to remember that.

“If no actual violence has taken place between any of us, then no violence has taken place between couples.”

None of us have threatened you, and more importantly, none of us have a damned clue where you are, so we couldn’t actually harm you. And further, there’s absolutely nothing forcing you to keep commenting here — do we need to start some sort of “cannot stop trolling anonymous” or something?

“Now a man might be at 50%, 60% or 70% guilt out of the gate.”

It really, really, doesn’t work like that, google Beck’s Depression Inventory, now does a score of 3/4ths the cutoff mean you’re 75% depressed? No, no it doesn’t, you can’t just add percentage signs because the cutoff is 10 and 10*10=100, that’s not how percentages work. (Now, if you want to keep digging, you can probably find an analysis of all scores with graph showing the breakdown, and then see where 70% of men actually fall) Ah, a simple example, 100 is the average IQ, 70 is 70% average then? 130 is 130% average? No, both of those are 2 standard deviations from the mean, meaning about 2.1% of people have IQs <70 and another 2.1% have IQs >130. You can’t just convert the raw score into a percent.

Would the MRM please offer a basic statistics course already? You don’t even need to teach how to find the SD, just tech what it is.

“First off, you’re on the wrong link. That page in no way translates to the punishment, which isn’t stated what it’ll be on the HITS site. I know you believe everything the State tells you but sometimes they lie by ommision.”

I checked both your links, there was absolutely no mention of anything happening to the partner of the surveyed. Instead, as I expected, there was talk of counseling and other such interventions for the surveyed, if the surveying produces a score consistent with abuse. You can insult me all you like, it won’t change that all that time spent sitting in psych classes learning this shit — no intervention with the abuser is going to be mandated because of the risk to the victim.

“If a man says to a woman, “you stupid bitch, sometimes I just feel like fucking slapping you.” It’s an insult, a curse and an implied threat, (haha). Which makes it a threefer. Items 2, 3, and 4, yet no actual violence has taken place.

“And how often does boyfriend act like this?” The nurse asks. “Oh all the time,” she replies. Does she curse? Does she insult? Does she flippantly say she’d like to slap him? It doesn’t matter. Do you notice a slight discrepancy in the power dynamic. The woman has carte blanche to ridicule, insult, scream, curse and even hit. The man can only cower and never even raise his voice. She is backed by the guns of the State. ”

Dude, if he’s regularly screaming threats and insults, that’s verbal abuse, and she should be given tools to help her leave (eg counseling). I would question why you refuse to admit that verbal abuse is abuse, but you’re you, so I’m guessing the answer is because that wouldn’t fit within your strange worldview.

“A woman can never be guilty under this plan, only a man. Do you find this equitable?”

I’d like to see the surveys tested on male victims and done regularly if that testing produces reliable results. Because that’s how the scientific method works. You’ll perhaps not that with the current evidence the surveying of elderly people is not covered under the ADA as it has a d class rating.

“I can. Why would I want any woman given a criminal record or possibly imprisoned for cursing, screaming or insulting? There’s a petition to do exactly that, have men screened as well. I certainly won’t sign that. It’s a joke. Imagine how easily and frequently it’ll be abused. Man/woman cheats or somehow infuriates the other party. You tell me what’ll happen.”

*sigh* Great, the surveyed lied, and can now either go to counseling re: being abused, or not. That’s all the fuck that means. And where’s this petition? Assuming it’s better at science than you are, I’d sign that.

Re: “white indentured slavery” — I’m descended from Italian coal miners NWO, you have no idea what you’re talking about. (Italian on my mother’s said, Native and various bits of European on my father’s…makes for fun family dinners, all that yummy food!)

“Are there more poor or less poor?”

It’s been fairly steady. (See, this is how a citation works)

“Is education better? Is anything better than it was 40 years ago?”

The first question is vague and undefined, so let’s pick a measure easy to research — I’ll do both literacy and HS graduation rates.

Graduation rate is also relatively stable. And I can’t seem to find US literacy rates over time, so we’ll have to settle on reading scores. (Also stable, for white students, increasing for students of color)

As for “is anything better” let’s try the mortality rate and lifespan data. Infant mortality and life expectancy have been decreasing, and increasing, respectively. Death rates have fallen. (And check that, life expectancy is rising fastest for white men.)

Basically, the only thing changing for the worse is how upset NWO is.

cloudiah
9 years ago

Ah, Owly, given that for everyone else in the U.S. indentured servitude ended in the 19th century, can you give us any corroborating information on your claim that in your family it ended about a century later? And how was it kept so secret?

katz
9 years ago

Ye gods. Doad and I maybe get into a fight that involves raised voices once or twice a year. Physical violence? Not okay! Not even once, ever!

Also, being insulted and/or cursed at by random people on the internet =/= being insulted or cursed by a significant other or family member, you know, someone who you physically spend a lot of time with and who has a specific duty to love and respect you.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
9 years ago

I’m bored, and the 3:2 or not discussion was really mathy, so I decided to dig up the data and make some charts. These are a combination of the following spreadsheets, all available here.

htus8008t01.csv Table 1. Victims and Offenders by Demographic Group, 1980-2008
htus8008f02.csv Figure 2. Number of homicide victims, 1950-2010
htus8008f26.csv Figure 26. Homicides of intimates, by sex of victim, 1980-2008

Homicides by intimates, as a percent of all homicides, by gender.
Homicides by intimates, raw number, by gender.
Homicides by intimates, by gender, stacked percents.

The last one is the 3:2 ratio thing, without the failing assumptions (one caveat, they’re all using the 1980-2008 average for the gender break down, I can’t seem to find that by year).

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
9 years ago

Homicides by intimates, by gender, stacked percents.

Missed a quotation mark there, whoops!

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

Mr C and I have been together off and on for over 15 years, and not once has either of us even come close to hitting the other. Raised voices? Maybe 5 or so times in that time period (neither of us are very shouty). Arguments? Lots during some years, other years where there were no serious arguments at all.

I have a sneaking suspicion that this is closer to what the average relationship looks like than NWOs vision of constant insults and displays of mutual contempt that lead to explosions of physical violence on an annual basis.

Fembot
Fembot
9 years ago

My husband and I rarely fight. When we do, he lectures more than yells. I don’t think either one of has yelled. We never name call. But, we are still newlyweds 🙂

Shaenon
9 years ago

Given that Slavey has said (I think?) that he was engaged, he’s basically admitting he beat his fiancée here.

No, he’s just admitting that he threatened to beat her. And called her a stupid bitch. He is perplexed as to why she broke off their engagement. Women are just crazy, I guess.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
9 years ago

How often does your partner?
Never = 1
Rarely = 2
Sometimes =3
Fairly often =4
Frequently =5

1. Physically hurt you O O O O O
2. Insult or talk down to you O O O O O
3. Threaten you with harm O O O O O
4. Scream or curse at you O O O O O

Let’s see, the ex-fiancee scores that dreaded 4, yet, note the ex part. The gaslighting narcissist who ended up threatening to kill me? 1, 5, 2, 2 …he was Mr. Polite while explaining how lazy I was since I didn’t fold laundry the moment I came in, while having a swearing fit about how fucking annoying it was to be spoken to when he first walked in (even if it was something like “how was your day?” or “your cat was surprisingly social earlier”). If that’s precise enough to spot a gaslighting narcissist for what he is, then yeah, it has my support.

Lol, I guess the FWB might manage a 5, idk how “shocking to be asked assistance” would score, pretty sure asking if I really asked for assistance =/= talking down to me though. Unlike Mr. Polite, who’d have managed a nice even calm tone while telling me how useless I was to need assistance and how this proves how much better he is.

It’s that dreaded context again!

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
9 years ago

Awww, I am still curious how John Anderson’s former sister in law’s having intimate relations with another man means that she is an unfit mother.

Cliff Pervocracy
9 years ago

I can. Why would I want any woman given a criminal record or possibly imprisoned for cursing, screaming or insulting? There’s a petition to do exactly that, have men screened as well.

I know arguing with NWO is pointlessness itself, but just to vent my own spleen:
A SCREENING QUESTIONNAIRE IS NOT A LAW!!! It is a tool for health and social work professionals to be able to find out who needs victim services. “Victim services” does not mean automatic arrest.

If you score above the threshhold, that means a nurse takes you aside and says “you have a real problem here, what’s happening to you isn’t right, this is how to get out if you’re ready to do so.” It does not mean the man gets carted off to jail. Yelling at people, even in fucking horrible ways, continues to be entirely legal.

And show me anywhere where I’ve ever said anything against black people. You forget where I grew up princess. We all hung out together. I was lucky to be able to crawl outta that shithole know as Philadelphia about 10 or so years ago. Just cause the rest you people grew up in cracker country and all you know about the ghetto is from the communist network news doesn’t mean shit. Did you see a black person in national geographic once? What a joke you people are.

I think saying that anywhere black people live is the “ghetto,” that Philly is a shithole because it has black people and that you’re traumatized from having to grow up with them, and that black people belong in National Geographic is pretty fucking racist right there.

Also my dad’s from Philly so I’ve been there many times. Not that that really proves anything significant, just, um… you don’t have a monopoly on Being-From-Philadelphia survivorship.

Also I live in Boston, so I don’t even know what the fuck you’re getting at about “cracker country,” of course black people live here.

That’s right princess, lot’s of people got over here that way.

Yeah, in, like, the 1600s. Indentured servitude of white people pretty much died down around the time of the American Revolution.

Did a, “partner” dare to disreguard you most valued opinion.

You know that’s actually pretty bad, right? It’s not violence and no court in the land would convict based on it, but you know that despite being legal that’s actually really nasty, right?

Partnership is supposed to be based on actually liking each other, not on making sure you only attack and abuse each other in technically legal ways. If you don’t want to hear someone’s opinions and respect their feelings, why do you even want to be around them, much less sharing your life with them?