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“What a lifeless, limp, ego-centric homo,” and other bon mots from the A Voice for Men crowd

So Mr. Paul Elam was apparently so offended by this video from Jay Smooth defending Anita Sarkeesian and her Tropes Vs Women video project against its many misogynistic detractors that he sat down and wrote out a carefully reasoned rebuttal of all of Mr. Smooth’s points.

Nah, I’m kidding. He wrote a snide couple of paragraphs calling Smooth a “leftist scumbucket,” and a “chickenshit feminist quisling,” and invited his readers to jump in with their own dopey insults. And they did. Some highlights (that is, lowlights):

I showed Paul’s comment to an MRA friend, and he said, “dude, you have to stop talking to me. I don’t exist! I’m no more real than Paul Elam’s ‘gay friend.'”

Andybob added this to the debate:

Yes, that’s right, he’s saying Smooth is being a “fag” in order to score with women. Clearly we have a brilliant mind at work here.

Several comments later, Iron John, a man apparently oblivious to irony, weighed in with this gem:

On Reddit, after someone pointed out the homophobia in the comments, Elam responded with “comment mine much?”

I’m pretty sure you don’t get to complain about “comment mining” for homophobia when 1) you’re the guy behind the site and 2) you’re one of the ones shouting “fag.”

Notice that Zorro’s original comment got an equal number of upvotes and downvotes. Then Elam jumped in to give the homophobia his seal of approval. After that, it was nothing but upvotes for those using or approving of the homophobic slur.

Calling a dude a “fag” on the internet: Men’s Rights Activism at its finest!

 

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Jessay (@jessay)
8 years ago

“Stop using shaming language against me fag!”

A sentence that only makes sense in the manosphere.

Aren’t they the ones trying to claim inclusion above what modern feminism has accomplished. Standing up for the problems of all men! They claim they include the struggles of gay men in their outrage.

Nope, they just appropriate the struggles of gay men so it’ll seem like they have something to be angry about, meanwhile they throw homophobic slurs around making the problem worse. Just like they appropriate the struggles of MOC when most of them are white men.

Also I love that guy. This is one of the few instances where “You’re just jealous” really makes sense.

katz
8 years ago

Meh, the sites are just shriveling up and dying because the movement was such a nonentity to begin with. I don’t think the SPLC did anything but convince MRAs that it’s all a conspiracy.

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
8 years ago

How often do I think about background radiation? Moderately often but not every time it comes up, due to that being a relevant thing to my geekery.

Perfect analogy. I don’t always notice the Male Default stuff, but sometimes I do.

pecunium
pecunium
8 years ago

Moderation trapped this before:

Bee: What is it with the MRA insistence that every man who is a feminist (or even only somehow indicates that he doesn’t completely hate women) must be so only because he’s trying to get some? I thought (in MRA land) women only have sex with guys who are complete assholes.

That’s the joke on us. Women who sleep with us are doing it under either false pretense, or misunderstanding. As a result they will dump us, and take us for everything we have.

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
8 years ago

Everything I have… Sense of humour?

pillowinhell
8 years ago

We’ll steal that away too Morkais..

Mwahahah!!!

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
8 years ago

IIRC, on soc.men there was once a discussion about whether or not “females” (never referred to as women) were actually fully human.

One of the most telling signs of MRAs` hate of women is that they almost always refer to women as “females”. Men are “men”, but women are just “females”.

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
8 years ago

The whole shtick about pussy-begging and white knights is, as with most things, all about projection on their part. Women are only good for sex, in their minds. Therefore the only reason any man would ever associate with women is because he wants pussy. So any man who is involved with a woman in any way and doesn`t want to fuck them is being deceitful.

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
8 years ago

ohno

then I will not be able to take any reference to a long rigid object as some form of innuendo

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
8 years ago

… Why do they associate with men, then?

Obviously nearly any argument is equally applicable to women. Equally obviously, they won’t accept that…

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

MorkaisChosen – I get the feeling a lot of them don’t associate with other men very much.

Has anyone else noticed how unsociable the dialogue on MRA sites tends to be? The comments and forums are all full of guys giving their arguments and grievances, but even though it’s the same guys posting for months or years, they never seem to recognize each other–when they interact it always has the stiff vibe of two people who’ve never talked before. There’s very little joking, very little “hey, nice to see you back here MRADude221,” and very little indication that they have any more fun in the backchannel. There’s just zero sense of camaraderie.

MRAs may not hate other men, but I don’t get much sense of them forming a brotherhood, either.

Dracula
Dracula
8 years ago

Cliff – For that matter, more than one MRA troll has openly mocked the kindness, friendship and general good humor displayed by the commentariat here, if I remember correctly. I think it says a lot about people when they use “You guys like each other!” as an insult.

Dracula
Dracula
8 years ago

It kinda has a “We’re super-serious and therefore logical and right.” feeling to it, now that I think about it.

Angela
Angela
8 years ago

Female misogynists used to blow my mind, but then I met one in person. I was astounded to meet a woman who so hated other women she wanted a magic land where all the men (and her) would have all the power and women would be chattel. I thought she was the only one until a friend of a friend of a friend asked me to critique her novel. She wanted me to read it because it had a female protagonist. The MC was the only woman in the entire book who had two brain cells to rub together. She stated point blank that only the strong could be vampires, which is why only men were vampires. It went on that way for about three quarters of the way through the book when the female protagonist’s sister dies and the the protag has to leave to take care of her nephews. The love interest quickly got over her loss and finished the rest of the book alone. I could tell the author was really trying to get me to critique her view on women, so I sent it back stating that the main character of a novel should probably stay with the novel until the end of it.

I wonder if women who would rather hang out with misogynists because they can’t stand being around other females and join in the mutual hatred are the male version of “nice” guys.

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

I think they also think of friendliness and compassion as very feminine traits, and that only Objective Logical Discourse (or angry ranting) is masculine.

Men aren’t friends. Friends are people you go shoe-shopping and talk about feelings with. (and obviously only women and girly-men do those things.) Men are colleagues.

It seems lonely. 🙁

Polliwog
Polliwog
8 years ago

I think they also think of friendliness and compassion as very feminine traits, and that only Objective Logical Discourse (or angry ranting) is masculine.

Men aren’t friends. Friends are people you go shoe-shopping and talk about feelings with. (and obviously only women and girly-men do those things.) Men are colleagues.

It seems lonely. 🙁

It really does.

And the truly sad thing is, when feminists tell them, “Hey, you are allowed to have feelings! You can have friends and laugh at kitten videos and give and receive kindness and compassion, and all of those things are totally okay and don’t make you any less of a man. Go be happy!” they perceive that as “evil feminists are trying to attack men by making us all girly!” I do genuinely feel bad for them (at least right up until they start shrieking about how we should get cancer and die, at which point my sympathy tends to wither a bit).

cloudiah
8 years ago

I like polliwog’s idea that the MRAs who are moving on are doing so because they’re getting out of their negative downward spirals. I hope that is true.

My warm fuzzy feeling are probably caused by my 3-day librarian love-fest. And maybe those 2 margaritas…

Fembot
Fembot
8 years ago

Oh Paul…Paul Paul Paul Paul….I can’t.

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3pum2z/

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

“at least right up until they start shrieking about how we should get cancer and die, at which point my sympathy tends to wither a bit”

Thankfully that now just causes my brain to cue Thank You Hater — “you wished me cancer, and misspelled cancer…”

cloudiah — the margaritas probably don’t hurt any, but I agree. It would be really nice if they ceased with the self-fulling prophecy that acting like a jerk because you assume people will think you’re a jerk will get you treated like a jerk (how many times in one sentence can I say jerk? XD )

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

Fembot – Oh, but “fag” only means the bad ones! The good gays understand that!

(wow, just realized this argument applies to pretty much every slur in existence.)

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 years ago

Elam’s friend isn’t a fag! He’s a good gay! The kind who will who will be as femmephobic as necessary and/or who has internalized enough homophobia and/or who is willing to put up with enough homophobia from his “friends” that he gets to be part of Paul’s club!

I seriously hope Paul’s gay friend is imaginary, otherwise it’s pretty safe to say that he’s putting up with an extraordinary amount of shit to get his “gays are gross but you’re okay I guess” card.

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 years ago

Ninja’ed right down to the italics O.O

cloudiah
8 years ago

BTW, I am toasting you all with margarita #2. I’m amazed I can still type — these margarita glasses are the size of washtubs! Now my friends want me to stop typing so I’m flouncing (temporarily).

katz
8 years ago

A beautiful flounce! 9/10 (because I never award perfect scores), and enjoy your adult beverages.

Jessay (@jessay)
8 years ago

Elam’s friend isn’t a fag! He’s a good gay! The kind who will who will be as femmephobic as necessary and/or who has internalized enough homophobia and/or who is willing to put up with enough homophobia from his “friends” that he gets to be part of Paul’s club!

Oh man, I hear my cousin talk about her experiences in Chicago which is obv a much more diverse area than where she grew up in NH. We were discussing racism and she told me that the black people she talks to there say things like, “There are black people, and then there’s n****s.” It’s really depressing. It’s like, how much hatred must a person endure to get that type of mentality where they would use that kind of slur which was used to oppress their ancestors to differentiate between themselves and “bad” black people? It reminds me of people like GWW and the female MRAs. It’s this, “I’m not like ~other girls~, those horrible bitches. I’m different, love me.” I dunno, it just bothered me.

Songthe
Songthe
8 years ago

I’d spew evangelical bs all day if it meant I could pay for college. Elam just writes crap and waits for donations, donation, donations, Suckers. It’s not hard to do to men’s pocketbooks these days. I’d do it myself but I can’t stomach all the hate.

skokieboki@yahoo.com
skokieboki@yahoo.com
8 years ago

Cliff – Yup. “Fag” is just for the bad ones and you can totally use the term if you have this one gay friend you wave to sometimes.

skokieboki@yahoo.com
skokieboki@yahoo.com
8 years ago

Jessay – Yeah, I heard that “There are black people, and then there are n*****s” line from whites and blacks growing up fairly frequently. Even sadder, the people who said that were actually sometimes less hateful than the type of people who never use vile language or even talk much about race, but use code words and knowing glances. The sly racists usually held more firmly to their racism, in my experience. Racism with a smile. Creepy.

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
8 years ago

Oh man, I hear my cousin talk about her experiences in Chicago which is obv a much more diverse area than where she grew up in NH. We were discussing racism and she told me that the black people she talks to there say things like, “There are black people, and then there’s n****s.” It’s really depressing. It’s like, how much hatred must a person endure to get that type of mentality where they would use that kind of slur which was used to oppress their ancestors to differentiate between themselves and “bad” black people?

I don’t meant to intrude on your conversation with skokieboki -and I’m not trying to derail the thread- but that quote is paraphrase of a prominent bit from Chris Rock’s very famous comedy special Bring the Pain.

And it’s a fairly complicated piece of comedy; nuanced, contextual, problematic, etc. I find it both interesting and a bit unfortunate, that the phrase has become such a part of the cultural zeitgeist. I’ve always disliked people appropriating the bit in order to justify their own racism.

But, assuming that its use is inherently some manifestation of self-hatred when Black people say it, is… dicey. You might not have the background/cultural context to understand.

blitzgal
8 years ago

“That it’s really pathetic that you still think that sandwich joke is funny.”

So many good points, I can’t even begin to list them all here, but the above made me laugh out loud.

nwoslave
8 years ago

@Cliff Pervocracy
“There’s very little joking, very little “hey, nice to see you back here MRADude221,” and very little indication that they have any more fun in the backchannel. There’s just zero sense of camaraderie.”

The, “fun” in feminism consists of, “jokes” ridiculing men. That is what you do here. Have women dictated what is or isn’t considered a, “sense of camaraderie?” Not too much of a surprise there.

blitzgal
8 years ago

Also, to give this some perspective — Sarkeesian was deluged with savagely racist and sexist attacks BEFORE THE VIDEOS HAD EVEN BEEN MADE. The announcement of the project was all it took for people to do things like deface her Wiki page with pornographic images and racist commentary. And yet these are the same assholes who roll their eyes and say it’s BS whenever gamer women try to say that the gaming community has a sexism problem. They’re the same ones who comment under every Kotaku post about this issue claiming that we’re “making it up” or “exaggerating” what happens to us when we play online games as women.

Mark Minter
8 years ago

I found your site while searching for the Marriage Strike. The basis for the claims of men are true. Most of the stuff you ridicule have foundations in truth. Women behave badly. Women have an outsized sense of entitlement. Woman lack accountability. Women manipulate the law for their benefit. Men are raped in divorce. Women make false domestic violence claims against men. Women make false sexual harassment claims against men. A lot of the claims made by feminists are outright false. I go on and on and on.

And you defend them. You have a whole site designed to mock and ridicule these claims.

So all I can say is you’re a suck up fag mangina. There is a whole lot of truth in that. I am not even going to bother to look for an intellectual argument. Fag.

lauralot89
8 years ago

Men are raped in divorce.

You know when men are raped? When they are actually raped. Don’t minimize the pain of rape survivors to say that men have it bad in divorce. And they don’t, actually, when men contest custody, fifty percent of the time they get it.

So all I can say is that you’re a jackass who lacks the ability to view women as anything but a stereotype and who thinks homophobic slurs are funny. There is a lot of truth in that. Asshole.

pillowinhell
8 years ago

Well, you could try looking for a better set of insults…as a het person I’m really feeling left out. Oh, and you forgot to refer to women as “females” or bitches. Just a protip to help you fit in with the MRA.

blitzgal
8 years ago

Men are raped in divorce.

No.

A lot of the claims made by feminists are outright false.

As are yours.

starterlifesydney
starterlifesydney
8 years ago


So all I can say is you’re a suck up fag mangina. There is a whole lot of truth in that. I am not even going to bother to look for an intellectual argument. Fag.

How dare you use shaming language against a male, you are a MISANDRIST!!!

MISANDRIST
MISANDRIST
MISANDRIST

pecunium
pecunium
8 years ago

We have a small dose of honesty: So all I can say is you’re a suck up fag mangina. There is a whole lot of truth in that. I am not even going to bother to look for an intellectual argument.

If only it came with just a soupçon of self-awareness.

Thankfully he’s just here to enjoy is hate-on, so we can continue with the adult conversation.

BigMomma
BigMomma
8 years ago

Mark Minter, there’s a name ripe for a limerick…

Sharculese
8 years ago

So all I can say is you’re a suck up fag mangina. There is a whole lot of truth in that. I am not even going to bother to look for an intellectual argument. Fag.

i totally believe this is the only rejoinder your capable of, but not for the reasons you claim

ps: yeah, we totally believe you were ‘just searching’

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

I wonder if the Marriage Strike will lead to Marriage Collective Bargaining?

I’m going to ask for health insurance, paid lunches, and improved safety equipment.

blitzgal
8 years ago

Actually, re-thinking the whole religiously based institution of marriage thing is a good idea. That’s why feminists have been tackling it for the past fifty fucking years, at least. You’re late to the party, MRAs.

pillowinhell
8 years ago

Yeah, marriage central didn’t put uch thought into his blog either. Most of the articles he’s posted up have been deleted or open into some completely unrelated HuffPo piece.

lauralot89
8 years ago

I think MRAs view feminism the same way Chick tracts view Catholicism. That is, anything the MRAs don’t like, even if it something feminists actively oppose, is somehow still the fault of the secret conspiracy. Like Catholics invented Islam/LDS/Masonry/Jehovah’s Witnesses/the KKK/the Holocaust/Hinduism/abortion/JFK and Lincoln’s assassinations, feminists are behind traditional marriage/stereotypical gender roles/prison rape/male suicide, etc.

Freitag
Freitag
8 years ago

@Mark Minter: “I go on and on and on.”
True, that.

Bee
Bee
8 years ago

Oh right, women. I know a buncha those. Heck, I am one. Who am I gonna believe, my lying personal experience, or Mark Minter, who has a hard time with the google?

Pro tip: Things that you think have a “foundation in reality” that aren’t actually true? Still aren’t actually true.

And as someone who advocates for men who are raped, I invite you to fuck off with your creative misunderstanding of what the word means.

talacaris
talacaris
8 years ago

Sometimes I can fell a similarity between Men’s Rights Activism and the Holy Roman Empire..

Jayem Griffin
8 years ago

Well, the one wasn’t holy, Roman, nor an empire, and the Men’s Rights Movement isn’t really a movement, and does a terrible job actually advocating for the rights of men.

Seraph
Seraph
8 years ago

Is MM a poe? For such a perfect example of what we’re talking about to show up at just the right time just boggles the mind.