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a voice for men antifeminism bullying douchebaggery harassment homophobia men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA paul elam reddit

“What a lifeless, limp, ego-centric homo,” and other bon mots from the A Voice for Men crowd

So Mr. Paul Elam was apparently so offended by this video from Jay Smooth defending Anita Sarkeesian and her Tropes Vs Women video project against its many misogynistic detractors that he sat down and wrote out a carefully reasoned rebuttal of all of Mr. Smooth’s points.

Nah, I’m kidding. He wrote a snide couple of paragraphs calling Smooth a “leftist scumbucket,” and a “chickenshit feminist quisling,” and invited his readers to jump in with their own dopey insults. And they did. Some highlights (that is, lowlights):

I showed Paul’s comment to an MRA friend, and he said, “dude, you have to stop talking to me. I don’t exist! I’m no more real than Paul Elam’s ‘gay friend.'”

Andybob added this to the debate:

Yes, that’s right, he’s saying Smooth is being a “fag” in order to score with women. Clearly we have a brilliant mind at work here.

Several comments later, Iron John, a man apparently oblivious to irony, weighed in with this gem:

On Reddit, after someone pointed out the homophobia in the comments, Elam responded with “comment mine much?”

I’m pretty sure you don’t get to complain about “comment mining” for homophobia when 1) you’re the guy behind the site and 2) you’re one of the ones shouting “fag.”

Notice that Zorro’s original comment got an equal number of upvotes and downvotes. Then Elam jumped in to give the homophobia his seal of approval. After that, it was nothing but upvotes for those using or approving of the homophobic slur.

Calling a dude a “fag” on the internet: Men’s Rights Activism at its finest!

 

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fishes
fishes
8 years ago

you know as a queer dude. I am so glad that MRA’s go out of their way to make men like me feel welcome.

Amanda Marcotte (@AmandaMarcotte)

It almost makes me feel bad for these pitiable men trying to use schoolyard language to swipe at someone who is leagues beyond them, not just politically, but just overall with regards to his career. It’s kind of like watching a rat chew on the leg of an elephant.

jennydevildoll
8 years ago

I like Jay Smooth’s radio show locally on WBAI, and other commentaries elsewhere. He seems to have a lot more going on with his life than any of these guys.

Shiraz
Shiraz
8 years ago

How does Anita being called a cunt repeatedly not fall under “harassment” and “bullying?” Oh. My bad. And I guess all the rape and whore/bitch references were meant to be constructive.
But a insightful look at female tropes in video games equals MRA’s hurt fee-fees? They’re such a delicate bunch. So sensitive. So fragile.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Way to gender police, AVfM. If Paul Elam has a non-imaginary gay friend, I will eat this computer.

Donnie
Donnie
8 years ago

I thought it was pretty honest. He said he was sorry, and he admitted that he just doesn’t have the ability to express himself any better.
More of a cry for help than an opinion, really.

jennydevildoll
8 years ago

MRAs shouldn’t be likened to rats though! (chewing elephants or not). Even my beautiful ratties have higher social consciousness than this! Just look!

http://jennydevildoll.wordpress.com/2012/04/22/the-blue-morningstar/

Dracula
Dracula
8 years ago

How these folks can believe themselves to be in any position to complain about “shaming language” is well beyond me.

Falconer
Falconer
8 years ago

I thought it was pretty honest.

Really?

He said he was sorry,

Then why did he feel the need to bring it up if he was?

and he admitted that he just doesn’t have the ability to express himself any better.

I bet. Expressing oneself thoughtfully requires effort. I bet this guy watched thirty seconds of the video and then hopped onto the comment thread to declare his tribal allegiance by attacking Jay Smooth.

Sharculese
8 years ago

this pretty much sums up everything about the idea of avfm as part of a movement

lauralot89
8 years ago

No, commenting mining is when you, say, go through someone’s entire Twitter until you find a tweet from back in November to make them look bad, to use a recent media example.

Pointing out that the person running a site is a-okay with homophobic slurs in the comments, however, is so the opposite of commenting mining that it’s like being struck in the head with a meteor.

jenn93
jenn93
8 years ago

Ha! These guys will never have anything on Jay Smooth. Seriously. Jay Smooth is an amazing, intelligent, beautiful man, with a lick-able brain.

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

“Shaming language” means things like “homophobe” or “misogynist”–you know, things that are meant to make you goddamn ashamed of yourself.

Maybe the MRA’s discomfort means they do feel a little smudge of shame?

pillowinhell
8 years ago

Ugh, and these guys have been putting out posts trying to get more gay and trans men to sign up. With friends like these you’ll always know who the backstaber or bully in your life will be.

karalora
8 years ago

This is yet another example of MRAs assuming–nay, insisting–that all men secretly share their dismal opinion of women, it’s just that some men want to have sex with women more than they hate them, so they pretend not to hate them. MRAs, of course, hate women more than they want to have sex with them, which is pretty jaw-dropping when you consider that most of their “issues” really come down to men being able to have sex with women whenever they want, as much as they want, with no strings attached.

Anathema
Anathema
8 years ago

MRAs shouldn’t be likened to rats though! (chewing elephants or not). Even my beautiful ratties have higher social consciousness than this! Just look!

http://jennydevildoll.wordpress.com/2012/04/22/the-blue-morningstar/

True. I used to own pet rats, and I can say without a doubt that their company was greatly preferable to MRAs.

Rats don’t whine about how disgusting and ugly I am when I’ve gone a week without shaving. Rats don’t call me a deceptive bitch when I decide to wear make-up. My rats liked being with people regardless of gender. My rats would fight amongst each other sometimes, but they were ultimately able to coexist peacefully with each other. They were far more friendly and sociable than many MRAs.

There are also more superficial differences between rats and MRAs. Some MRAs apparently think that women paint their nails to hide the fact that they’re dirty. Despite the fact that it takes more time to paint your nails than to clean them. This makes me suspect that MRAs don’t realize how easy it is to clean your nails. Which leads me to suspect that some MRAs have poor personal hygiene habits in general. Anyone who has ever had pet rats will know that rats groom themselves frequently. I suspect that rats have better personal hygiene than many MRAs.

fishes
fishes
8 years ago

wait, really pillowinhell? is there anyway I could get a link to one of these post I could use a good laugh.

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

Karalora – Considering MRAs think sex is the only reason to pretend to care about women, gay men who care about women must just break their brains.

(“Being gay makes you an honorary woman” seems like the usual rationalization.)

Naira
Naira
8 years ago

@Cliff:

Here’s doubting that they’re feeling any kind of shame. I think more that they’re co-opting the term in the same way they’ve co-opted “nuh-uh! MEN are oppressed!”

Stealing the language and redeploying it for their own use. Something similar happened when I was in college. The campus’s conservative student’s club had a “Coming out Day” the day before National Coming Out day. Because on a liberal campus, conservatives are abused an shamed for their political views.

Bee
Bee
8 years ago

What is it with the MRA insistence that every man who is a feminist (or even only somehow indicates that he doesn’t completely hate women) must be so only because he’s trying to get some? I thought (in MRAland) women only have sex with guys who are complete assholes.

Cliff Pervocracy
8 years ago

Naira – That happened on my campus too. It was super shitty.

Nanasha
Nanasha
8 years ago

This reminds me of a similar sort of situation:

Apparently, even if you’re asking about something innocuous, like if you’re in the right line for beer, it’s just totes ok to start dishing out the homophobic slurs. Because, ya know, Real Men (TM) are supposed to be psychic and know exactly what’s going on at all times and admitting this to another man deflates your privilege faster and turns you into a big, screaming target for abuse. Didn’t you get the memo through Real Man Psychic Brain Mail (TM)? Oh, you didn’t? WHAT ARE YOU, SOME KIND OF _____?!

If male privilege and power is so fucking vulnerable and easily destroyed, then what is the use of literally destroying everyone else’s ability to have a safe and happy life just to keep it intact?

It’s like the family with the abusive person where everyone else has to walk on eggshells and constantly work around the abuser for…some reason?…instead of working together to figure out a BETTER WAY.

The human race’s relationship with privilege vectors is not working out. We need to figure out some sort of way to break out of the cycle of abuse, even if there are some people who think that they are benefitting from it.

Let’s have less of that, please.

Shaenon
8 years ago

“Trying to make ‘fetch’ happen with misandry” is the best line.

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

I still don’t get why this project seems to be dispensing wedgies to the MRM. It’s not even asking for any sanctions or anything, so WTF is their problem with it?

@Nanasha

Love that scene!

Polliwog
Polliwog
8 years ago

WTF is their problem with it?

1. There is a woman.
2. She has opinions.
3. Some of those opinions are about things that misogynists also have opinions about.
3. People are acting like that’s acceptable and even paying her as if she were an actual person instead of just a vagina storage unit! OMG ARGLEBARGLE RAAAAGE.

That’s pretty much it, sadly.

AlexB
AlexB
8 years ago

There’s even someone on that thread suggesting that Jay Smooth probably has trouble getting laid.

Aside from the part where that seems quite unlikely, I thought that was like the number 1 worst most evil and oppressive thing you could ever say about a man in MRAland? I thought it was shaming language and misandry and feminazism and all the worst things in the world to say that about people (or at least, about men?) But it’s being said, and not called out.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

“How these folks can believe themselves to be in any position to complain about “shaming language” is well beyond me.”

In their backwards land, I think their issue is that they say something intended to shame, someone calls them out on their shaming language, and they decide that since they’re being shamed for their use of slurs, calling them out is itself shaming language and thus they win the internet.

Glossary troll has taught me whole new ways of twisting logic…

fishes
fishes
8 years ago

shadow I’ve heard some people say that it was because she was asking for too much money not that she was a woman. which aside from being bullshit seeing no one is jumping on some random dudes kickstarter for the same reason, it another level of internet entitlement of people being pissed that some women ask for money for her work..

Amnesia
Amnesia
8 years ago

Once again, MRAs prove they possess less self awareness than Carl from Llamas with Hats.

Ruby Hypatia
Ruby Hypatia
8 years ago

Excellent points from Jay Smooth. We need more men like him and David.

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

@Polliwog & fishes

Cheers, that makes sense. Or “sense”, considering what we’re dealing with

Anathema
Anathema
8 years ago

@ Argenti Aertheri:

It’s like when homophobes, racists, or any other sort of bigot whines about how people will call them out on their intolerance. Although the specific phrasing varies depending upon the situation, it typically all boils down to something like this:

“But if intolerance is such a bad thing, why are you being so intolerant of my intolerance? If you were truly tolerant, you would tolerate my intolerance. So it’s really the people who advocate tolerance who are the intolerant ones! And now I’m calling you out on you’re intolerance.”

If completely and totally missing the point was an Olympic Sport, the people who make these sorts of arguments would get medals.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

“If completely and totally missing the point was an Olympic Sport, the people who make these sorts of arguments would get medals.”

…are we sure it isn’t for MRAs? They do seem to be masters at it in all possible contexts…

And yes, it’s exactly like that.

lowquacks
lowquacks
8 years ago

Funnily enough, Elam’s fine with linking to a pretty standard “Nice Guys” feminist article if it’s to (inaccurately) attack Jay Smooth.

On the plus side, according to ForsakenEagle in the comments, feminism is now a Mainstream Opinion!

skokieboki@yahoo.com
skokieboki@yahoo.com
8 years ago

These guys like to shout “shaming language!” at anything. I think many of them honestly believe they can win any argument as long as they come up with something to pretend to be offended about.

They all seem to have read from the same guide book on how to be really annoying and shitty debaters.

Manjaw the Mighty
8 years ago

His snide parody of MRAs pointing out that misandry exists is transparent pussy begging.

In absolutely no universe does Jay Smooth have to “beg” for pussy. I might be a man-hating Amazon dyke, but even I have a massive hetero crush on Mr. Smooth.

Jay Smooth also just isn’t the kind of person who would stoop to “begging” for sex because, unlike MRAs, he doesn’t see sexual conquest as the ultimate source of personal and social validation–I’m sure he doesn’t see sex as any kind of “conquest” at all. It’s so telling that “pussy begging” is even a concept that these guys earnestly believe in and accordingly project onto other men with whom they disagree. I think it was Cliff who pointed out that MRAs can only conceive of women as sex objects, not as people. As much as, by now, it feels like a cheap shot and an oversimplification to say that MRAs are creepy guys who can’t get laid and who channel their sexual frustration into violent, misogynistic rage, I really think that’s largely the case.

Ayla
Ayla
8 years ago

Hahahaha, this is great. Can you imagine the level of jealousy these losers must feel towards Jay? He’s smart, talented, has his own radio show, attractive, probably has good relationships with women in his personal life and good skills for interacting with women and people in general. He’s basically everything the MRAs aren’t. He even has more of the positive attributes attributed to masculinity, so he is even “manlier” than they are in the traditional sense. And so they call him a fag. And lifeless, which is even funnier considering how animated Jay is.

AbsintheDexterous
8 years ago

Polliwog, I think it’s just 1 and 2. They don’t seem to like female MRAs much either, even though they’re in agreement. It’s more of a barely seething tolerance. They seem to flip out whenever a woman expresses an opinion on anything.

Freitag
Freitag
8 years ago

Internet is for Men, not for women, or at least that used to be the attitude in the old days of usenet (and, yes, I am that old). Any female-type person who ventured into cyberspace was asking for a flaming, and got it. Women were not welcome online. Sarkeesian is not only a female-type person, not only dares to be on the Interwebz, but has the nerve to address female-type issues on it in an intelligent and dignified way. How dare she? So flames away, and also for any man-type person who hasn’t got a problem with it.
Amazing how little has changed since the early 90s. They’re still griping about women and the eeeeevuls of feminism in the same language, and focusing on the same old stuff. Boobery is eternal.

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
8 years ago

Internet is for Men, not for women,

I have this feeling that the usual misogynist-arsehole way to think that is “Internet is for Normal People, not for women.”

(This point based on thinking, not immediate evidence; also rum.)

Freitag
Freitag
8 years ago

IIRC, on soc.men there was once a discussion about whether or not “females” (never referred to as women) were actually fully human.

pillowinhell
8 years ago

MC I think that last comment was right on the money. Especially when you consider the latest fad of “if you market a product to women that isn’t already feminine as make up then it must feature : the color pink, happy children, be discussed in pointlessly euphemistic language( yogurt commericals anyone?), discussed in depth on entirely secondary merits (think the pill: I won’t be so raggy!) Or some percieved health benefit. Everything else is coded male or gender neutral. Thanks capitalism for deciding that half the human species is a “niche market”!

Polliwog
Polliwog
8 years ago

Polliwog, I think it’s just 1 and 2. They don’t seem to like female MRAs much either, even though they’re in agreement. It’s more of a barely seething tolerance. They seem to flip out whenever a woman expresses an opinion on anything.

Oh, I think 1 and 2 alone are enough to piss off these asshats (hell, I think 1 alone is enough – witness the amount of rage they’re often able to summon up over both “women working” and “women depending on someone else for income,” or “women trying to look attractive to men” and “women not trying to look attractive to men,” and it becomes pretty obvious that “women existing” is more than enough to start the rage-fires burning), but those combined with 3 and 4 is what took this particular case into “we must completely deluge her with rape threats, because that’s totally how a legitimate social justice movement responds to things” territory.

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
8 years ago

I’m not doubting whether “There are Default People and also women” is a common idea (I nearly put ‘is true’ there, not quite what I meant…), just whether it was actually relevant right here.

pillowinhell
8 years ago

MC, if everything is coded Normal people equals male or hetero couple in RL, why would men suddenly think “oh wait this is a gender neutral space!” On the interwebz, unless all computers were painted pink or just about everyone working on anything computer oriented/ technologically related were women?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Another one bailing? I have a feeling that we can thank the SPLC for the recent mini-exodus of MRAs. Being called out as a hate group by the same people who work against the KKK has to have at least a few of them reconsidering things.

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
8 years ago

pillowinhell: Didn’t think of that, you’re right. Possibly thinking things through would be something I should remember to do.

pillowinhell
8 years ago

Hmm…I dunno. The blogs I’ve seen that have closed down have cited moving on to new things as the reason. I actually like this reason better, because hopefully moving on to new or better things gets these guys out of the downward spiral they’re in. If they are happier in certain areas of their lives it may spill into their views on relationships and women and promote small but important and healthier viewpoints. I think that would be more sustainable in the long run than just ” oh my god I’ve been labeled as part of a hate group so I better stew silently or the gubmint will get me!”.

pillowinhell
8 years ago

MC its one of those ideas that everyone is so over exposed to that its like background radiation in the universe. Really, unless you’re watching Stargate Universe how often do you really even think about background radiation at all?

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