If you want even more proof that the denizens of A Voice for Men live in Imaginary Backwards Land, let me draw your attention to a recent posting from FeMRA TyphonBlue and JohnTheOther. The post’s bland title, Men, and patriarchy in the church, belies the loopiness of this particular bit of theological argument, the aim of which is to prove that Christianity is and always has been about hating dudes.
Oh, sure, TB and JTO note, it might look like Christianity in its various forms has been a tad dude-centric. I mean, it’s based on the teachings of a dude. And there’s that whole “God the Father” thing. Oh, and Christian religious institutions have been almost always headed up by dudes. There has yet to be a Popette.
But apparently to assume that the people running something actually run that something is to indulge in what MRAs like to call “the frontman fallacy,” by which they mean that even though it looks like men run most things in the world it’s really the sneaky ladies who call the shots, somehow. TB/JTO, citing the aforementioned faux “fallacy,” ask:
Because Christianity has a male priesthood, is headed by a man and uses masculine language to refer to the God and humanity’s savior, does it necessarily follow that Christianity is male favoring?
Bravely, the two decide not to go with the correct answer here, which is of course “yes.” Instead, they say no. And why is this? Because Jesus didn’t go around boning the ladies.
Seriously. That’s their main argument:
[Christ] had no sexual life. This absence leaves no spiritual connection between the masculine body and the divine.
The Christ is sexless; presumptively masculine, but never actually engaging in any activity unique to his masculine body. …
The implicit stricture of making the female body the vessel of Holy Spirit while offering no corresponding connection between the divine and the male body creates a spiritual caste system with women on top and men on the bottom.
Also: Joseph didn’t bone Mary, at least not before she gave birth to Jesus.
The birth of Christ is without sin because, quite simply, it did not involve a penis. The entire mythology around the birth of Christ implicitly indicts male sexuality as the vector of original sin from generation to generation.
Uh, I sort of thought that the notion of Original Sin had something or other to do with Eve and an apple in the Garden of Eden. But apparently not:
Forget Eve. Forget the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the Serpent. If all human women, tomorrow, conceived and gestated and gave birth without ever coming into contact with a penis, our race would be purged of original sin.
Pretty impressive theological revisionism from a couple of blabby video bloggers who apparently don’t know how to spell “canon.” (ProTip: “Cannon” refers to one of those tubey metal things you shoot “cannonballs” from.)
The two conclude:
Our culture’s war against masculine identity, male sexuality and fatherhood is an old one. That war arguably began as we adopted a faith which marginalizes the role of men in procreation, idolizing a story that removes them completely from the process. The exemplar of male virtue in this theology is a man who had no natural sexual expression, although his character is designated as male. And his primary purpose was to be flogged, literally tortured for the “crimes” of others, and then bound and nailed through his limbs, still alive to an erected cruciform scaffold, to die from shock and exposure on a hilltop. And we somehow manage to claim that this religion elevates men over women?
Well, yeah.
Rather than supremacy, Christianity provides to men the role of asexual stewards of women’s benefit, and sacrificial penitent, preaching the gospel of a female-deifying, male-demonizing faith. It is true that women have not historically been allowed to front this farce, but mostly because that would make the message too obvious.
What?
While some kinds of Christianity get rather worked up about the evils of premarital sex and/or birth control, I’m pretty sure married and/or procreative sex is a-ok with all Christians this side of the mother in the movie Carrie. Even — well, especially — if it involves dudes. (I’m pretty sure the church fathers were never big proponents of lesbianism.)
And if women really run the show, despite men “fronting” the church, could you perhaps spell out just who these all-powerful women are? Like, some names perhaps? Who’s the lady puppeteer behind the pope?
They of course don’t offer any real-world evidence for this secret supposed matriarchy. Instead, they ramp up for a sarcastic ending:
But we continue to ignore all of this, and we entertain the farce that our religious institutions constitute a male-elevating, female oppressing patriarchy.
Yeah, tell us another one.
No point in telling you guys anything any more. Clearly you can twist any and all facts about the world to fit your increasingly weird and baroque fictions about men always being the most oppressed, past, present and future.
A Voice for Men is slowly but surely disappearing up its own ass.
Wut.
Fail.
oh hai ruby. Still pretending to care about women’s rights? I thought some women deserved to be other’s “bitch”. Oppression should be for bad women amiright?
@jumbofish
well if theyre poor, then oppressing them is a-okay because that is Scientifically Correct
I guess… this is the point where one should say: “No, this is wrong and you are stupid.”
Because Jesus Christ.
Oh hey Ruby, gotten bored of the “rape is awesome because I’M A FEMINIST DAMMIT” in the last thread and ready to play the “don’t bring up things I said a whole entire hour ago!” game in this thread?
she posted that at the same time she posted her last sneery defense in the other thread. this is her ‘i care so little about the fact that people here think i’m awful that i’m just gonna pretend it isn’t happening’ gambit
<blockquote?Since he was a man, we can assume that he had all the bodily functions of every other man which includes urination, erections, and nocturnal emissions.
Fail.
Okay, how is that fail?
The list of men these guys don’t consider to be real men is growing ever larger by the day it seems. I don’t know guys I’m not really feeling the love form the movement that is supposedly representing the needs of my gender is what I’m saying and I know this might sound a bit paranoid of me but sometimes it seems like your just out for your selves and this whole “we care about all men” thing is sort of a cover so that when people call you on your intolerant bullshit you have a convenient go to excuse.
I’m starting to think Ruby’s interest in feminism is based solely on a desire to not be personally insulted, and fuck everyone else. She’s basically the Brandon of feminism.
@lady Z
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erectile_dysfunction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catheter
Wow. Okay then. I’ll append my original comment to say that if Jesus was a hetero, cis man without ED then we can assume he had all the bodily functions of every other man which includes urination, erections, and nocturnal emissions.
The intersex thing is intriguing. Some interpretations allege that Jesus was a spirit creature, or angel, before being born to a woman. I’ve heard some theologians say that angels are sexless and I’ve heard others say they are both. So it isn’t too far of a stretch to imagine Jesus was intersex.
But you know what would have been helpful? If you would have explained that rather than the “Fail” comment because I honestly didn’t realize what I said was that offensive. I apologize to anyone who I offended.
Yep, this sounds just like the ramblings of a conspiracy theorist. I remembered that JtO is all about conspiracy theories–he believes the CIA funded Gloria Steinem and feminism in order to destabilize society or some bullshit—so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
I just wish I can post this goldmine a million times over there:
http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/articles/women-bible
But I heard Elam is super dictatorial with his comments policy.
Also, a nugget of knowledge from Tertullian (160 A.D – 225 A.D), considered one of the great forefathers of Christianity:
“And do you not know that you (women) are (each) an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in the age; the guilt must of necessity live, too. You are the devil’s pathway; you are the unsealed of that (forbidden) tree; you are the first deserter of the divine law; you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God’s image, man. On account of your desert – that is, death – even the Son of God had to die.”
Personally, Eve was one of the few Biblical female role models for me. Aside from Rahab, Abigail, and Judith.
You know, I’m not sure if you realize but you’re still using “every other man” as shorthand for cis man without ED. That’s what the fail is.
This comes across as a little entitled to me. What would be helpful is if you would educate yourself on these social justice issues and not expect marginalized people to do it for you.
Snowy – I do try. But I mess up from time to time because of the privilege I’m trying to tame. I understand that cis and able is not the default by any means.
You misunderstand, not every man is healthy/young/cis its rude to count them in the “not man” category because of xyz reasons. There isn’t “every other men” men and “those random dudes who I don’t really count” men. There is just men which is a wide variety of people.
Passive progressiveness much? You aren’t really sorry, you are mad I said anything at all. You iz fail again
About Jesus having sex with women …
There’s an idea that Jesus was rescued from the cross, that while he seemed to die he was only unconscious, and that he was spirited away to Europe, where he married Mary Magdalene and had a family. His bloodline is said by some to have led through a lot of early French kings. This earthly existence would seem to me to contradict and be incompatible with his divinity, but then I’m of the opinion that if Jesus was in any part a divine being then he couldn’t have known what human existence was like, and if he wasn’t in any part divine then people shouldn’t worship him. He can’t be both God and human at the same time.
The idea of his blood passing through royal dynasties is generally adhered to only by people invested in the divine right of kings to rule, but it’s interesting to read about.
TyphonBlue is a yaoi fangirl? This has so much potential! Do you think if we goaded her a bit she’d write Jesus/disciples smut with an MRA flavor? Because that would be the funniest thing ever.
@cassandra
Oh god…..I would read it then die.
I still have a hard time seeing her as a yaoi fangirl. That was a joke right??
@Falconer
that is a discredited conspiracy theory popularized by this psuedohistory book
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holy_Blood_and_the_Holy_Grail
*passive aggressive
No idea how that turned to passive progressive…..XD
I would consider that to be passively being progressive too….
I’d assumed it was intentional. I think you’ve accidentally stumbled onto a useful bit of wordplay.