If you want even more proof that the denizens of A Voice for Men live in Imaginary Backwards Land, let me draw your attention to a recent posting from FeMRA TyphonBlue and JohnTheOther. The post’s bland title, Men, and patriarchy in the church, belies the loopiness of this particular bit of theological argument, the aim of which is to prove that Christianity is and always has been about hating dudes.
Oh, sure, TB and JTO note, it might look like Christianity in its various forms has been a tad dude-centric. I mean, it’s based on the teachings of a dude. And there’s that whole “God the Father” thing. Oh, and Christian religious institutions have been almost always headed up by dudes. There has yet to be a Popette.
But apparently to assume that the people running something actually run that something is to indulge in what MRAs like to call “the frontman fallacy,” by which they mean that even though it looks like men run most things in the world it’s really the sneaky ladies who call the shots, somehow. TB/JTO, citing the aforementioned faux “fallacy,” ask:
Because Christianity has a male priesthood, is headed by a man and uses masculine language to refer to the God and humanity’s savior, does it necessarily follow that Christianity is male favoring?
Bravely, the two decide not to go with the correct answer here, which is of course “yes.” Instead, they say no. And why is this? Because Jesus didn’t go around boning the ladies.
Seriously. That’s their main argument:
[Christ] had no sexual life. This absence leaves no spiritual connection between the masculine body and the divine.
The Christ is sexless; presumptively masculine, but never actually engaging in any activity unique to his masculine body. …
The implicit stricture of making the female body the vessel of Holy Spirit while offering no corresponding connection between the divine and the male body creates a spiritual caste system with women on top and men on the bottom.
Also: Joseph didn’t bone Mary, at least not before she gave birth to Jesus.
The birth of Christ is without sin because, quite simply, it did not involve a penis. The entire mythology around the birth of Christ implicitly indicts male sexuality as the vector of original sin from generation to generation.
Uh, I sort of thought that the notion of Original Sin had something or other to do with Eve and an apple in the Garden of Eden. But apparently not:
Forget Eve. Forget the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the Serpent. If all human women, tomorrow, conceived and gestated and gave birth without ever coming into contact with a penis, our race would be purged of original sin.
Pretty impressive theological revisionism from a couple of blabby video bloggers who apparently don’t know how to spell “canon.” (ProTip: “Cannon” refers to one of those tubey metal things you shoot “cannonballs” from.)
The two conclude:
Our culture’s war against masculine identity, male sexuality and fatherhood is an old one. That war arguably began as we adopted a faith which marginalizes the role of men in procreation, idolizing a story that removes them completely from the process. The exemplar of male virtue in this theology is a man who had no natural sexual expression, although his character is designated as male. And his primary purpose was to be flogged, literally tortured for the “crimes” of others, and then bound and nailed through his limbs, still alive to an erected cruciform scaffold, to die from shock and exposure on a hilltop. And we somehow manage to claim that this religion elevates men over women?
Well, yeah.
Rather than supremacy, Christianity provides to men the role of asexual stewards of women’s benefit, and sacrificial penitent, preaching the gospel of a female-deifying, male-demonizing faith. It is true that women have not historically been allowed to front this farce, but mostly because that would make the message too obvious.
What?
While some kinds of Christianity get rather worked up about the evils of premarital sex and/or birth control, I’m pretty sure married and/or procreative sex is a-ok with all Christians this side of the mother in the movie Carrie. Even — well, especially — if it involves dudes. (I’m pretty sure the church fathers were never big proponents of lesbianism.)
And if women really run the show, despite men “fronting” the church, could you perhaps spell out just who these all-powerful women are? Like, some names perhaps? Who’s the lady puppeteer behind the pope?
They of course don’t offer any real-world evidence for this secret supposed matriarchy. Instead, they ramp up for a sarcastic ending:
But we continue to ignore all of this, and we entertain the farce that our religious institutions constitute a male-elevating, female oppressing patriarchy.
Yeah, tell us another one.
No point in telling you guys anything any more. Clearly you can twist any and all facts about the world to fit your increasingly weird and baroque fictions about men always being the most oppressed, past, present and future.
A Voice for Men is slowly but surely disappearing up its own ass.
Fucking someone with a penis is the only masculine thing you can do with a body? The hell?
Or because it didn’t involve a woman having sex. We hear about the “virgin Mary;” no one makes a big deal out of whether Joseph was a virgin or not.
I hate the idea that male gender is something you can be disqualified from. All the shit about “losing your man card,” and “real men don’t X,” from jocular to deadly serious, is such bullshit.
Jesus, like any other man who hasn’t had sex, was a man. THAT’S HOW MANHOOD WORKS. IT’S NOT SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO FUCKING EARN. Identify as a man? You’re a man! Bam. That’s all it takes. God damn it.
Man, I totally thought they’d start going on about the feminizing imperative of the church. COME ON, guys. Dalrock has got you beat!
Aren’t these the same idiots that complain about virgin shaming? If so, way to ruin your own complaints.
I think that if they talked to actual Christians they’d find themselves firmly called blasphemous idiots and promptly ignored.
Not that I agree with Christianity’s take on gender roles either, but ffs, at least stop with the bullshit twisting of facts. Christ it’s like they’re on their own planet where they think they can just make up shit and it’s true.
so… dick-shaped communion wafers? is that the endgame here?
This is the most commonly misunderstood theological point. Mary was conceived without original sin, but with a penis (the second part is pretty well understood, and not theological). Jesus had to be born to a woman free of sin, so Mary had to be conceived immaculately.
Knowing what you’re talking about isn’t a prerequisite for spouting off on the internet, though. Original sin is transmitted from the mother to the child, and it causes childbirth to be painful, so of course these guys got it 100% backwards.
Don Draper said it best, but “WHAT?” AVfM can’t disappear up it’s own ass soon enough.
I was raised pretty ignorant of religion (my parents could not be arsed to go to church. at all.), but even I know this is bullshit.
As somebody who has actually been in a church:
The GAH! outnumbers the HA! today.
That is all.
Either that, or replacing the communion wine with salty milk
Can I have a timeframe on when the MRAs will be around to revoke my manlyness for never having had sex? I have a busy weekend (*laughsnort*, only if you count playing games), and I don’t want them turning up at an inopportune time.
So remember, kids, celibacy and/or asexuality = MISANDRY!
So if Christianity is all about hating men, does that make Jack Chick the world’s biggest mangina? Somehow I can’t imagine he’d agree.
Also, color me unsurprised that they don’t realize “Immaculate Conception” does not refer to the birth of Jesus.
@shade
actually, mras love to (selectively) make a huge deal about virgin shaming and love to accuse anyone sex positive of doing it, especially the manboobz commentariat.
I’m not sure how a non man-hating bible would look like to them: do they want tales of Jesus pissing will standing up and writing his name in the snow, Jesus masturbating, Jesus having sex with a prostitute? Because all of those things might well have happened (if Jesus existed) but somehow it seems quite obvious why the apostles wouldn’t have written it. So what would be their proof of manhood? Are men with children the only real men?
And even more unbelievable: how are MRAs not complaining that Mary, managed to make Joseph raise the baby she had slutting around with God?
“Also, color me unsurprised that they don’t realize “Immaculate Conception” does not refer to the birth of Jesus.”
I never really understood that. Why is Mary the “Immaculate Conception”, ergo untainted by the original sin? Was it a random thing and it lead to god choosing her, did god ‘immaculated’ her?
I don’t think Jesus would have gotten the chance to write his name in the snow.
:p
/pedant
In the MRA Bible, Moses led the enslaved betas out of the land of Friend Zone through the Mangina Sea.
I imagine MRA Jesus not only had ALL THE SEX with Mary Magdalen, but he was probably also her pimp. Because in the MRA Bible, she was definitely a prostitute.
@Kyrie: In my understanding, God chose Mary to bear Jesus before Mary was conceived (“before you were in the womb, I knew you” and all) and ensured that she was conceived without original sin. But the angel still had to petition Mary about it because humans have free will and what not. So I guess if she had said no, another girl would be conceived without original sin?
Not sure what that would mean for Mary though. Would she retroactively become sinful?
Ha ha ha ha ha! I love JohntheOther’s reasoning here.
If you ignore that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit* are male, that all twelve disciples are male, and that the majority of the major characters of the Bible are male,
If you ignore groups like the Promise Keepers that teach men to rule over their wives,
If you ignore the emphasis some preachers put on girls to remain “pure” for their future husband, and to understand that “boys will be boys”,
If you ignore the entire Quiverull movement, which describes one of its goals as establishing Christian patriarchy,
If you ignore how Eve tempted Adam to eat the apple and cause the fall of man,
If you ignore the Pauline epistles that had instructions for women to remain silent in church and to obey their husbands (while also teaching husbands to love their wives, and submit to the rule of Christ),
If you ignore how few churches allow women to be priests or pastors,
If you ignore all of that, then you might have a good argument for how Christianity is matriarchal.
*Disclaimer that not all churches teach the same things. Some churches teach that the Trinity is one, while others say its three distinct deities. Some say that God is gender neutral, too. A lot of people make the mistake of assuming that Catholicism represents all of Christianity.
In a world of women oppressing men with their refusal to charitably give sex…logical conclusion? I’ve been to Rome and never saw the Popette. Perversely for a doctrine that supports the dirty women, the Vatican had strict dress code.
Cliff: and isn’t that MISANDRY? But if he can turn water into wine, you’d think he could make snow fall. I think he probably did but they didn’t write it down because it wouldn’t have looked serious.
That explanation makes sense, except it implies that God couldn’t forsee the future well enough to know if Mary would be the right choice to be the vessel of Christ. There’s a lot of debate on how God is omnipotent and can see the future, yet people have free will.
Anyway, if Mary had said no, I think God would have smited her. That’s kind of what happened with Jonah and the whale anyway. He said no to God, so God had a whale swallow him as punishment. He might have done the same for her, except he mellowed a bit between the Old and New Testaments.
Lauralot: then it raises the question of why God make all the other babies to be born without the original sin. The bible often seems contradictory to me.
Okay, so I’m pretty sure I just cemented my place in hell, but it was worth it:
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t92/Lauralot/mrajesus1.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t92/Lauralot/mrajesus2.jpg
Wha…? No, seriously, wha…GAH! I just can’t with this. Is this some kind of fucked up game they play?
“Okay gang, let’s deconstruct this pickle jar so we can show how pickle jars are actually misandry.”
“I’ll start. If you notice, the pickle jar is a round, feminine receptacle in which phallic vegetables that have been subjected to the pickling process are chopped up and stored in brine for later consumption.”
“Excellent point! The pickle jar illustrates that penises are only valued in terms of providing vaginal receptacles something to store and later dispose of as the gynocracy deems fit.”
“Quite right! Pickle jars are obviously misandry. Well done, chaps!”
Hey, fucknuts at AVfM, you really have no clue as to why virginity was so valued in Christianity, do you? Hint: it’s not because of the dirty, dirty penises.
If AVfM disappears further up its own ass, they’ll have to divide by zero.
I can’t decide whether I’m more outraged by how gender essentialist their “analysis” of Christianity is, or by all the ways in which they’ve rewritten history. It’s the history…
Someone give them a dose of cultural relativism and a history book, stat.