So the other day some of the fellas on the Men’s Rights subreddit were having a strange little conversation. One Men’s Rights Redditor posted a clip from Bill Burr, in which the comedian complained that when his girlfriend hit him, he couldn’t hit her back without getting himself into a lot of trouble.
Instead of pointing his fellows to, I don’t know, resources for male victims of domestic abuse, the OP joked “This Is Why I Wish That I Was Sexually Attracted to Men.”
Yep, that’s right. He wants to date other men so, if the need arises, he can punch them.
Naturally, this being Reddit, other straight dudes jumped in with their own fantasies about how much easier life would be if they were gay. After all, jacKofKats pointed out, dating a guy would mean you could play video games with the very same person you have sex with, something obviously impossible in heterosexual relationships.
Oneiorosgrip agreed with the original poster that life would be much simpler and easier if guys could hit their mates:
Dolanduckeroo expressed envy towards his gay friends, who apparently lead lives of ease and endless zipless fucks, all the while being appreciated for who they truly are.
A few actual gay men wandered into the discussion, hoping to inject a bit of realism, pointing out (among other things) that gay men actually face something called “homophobia” — look it up if you haven’t heard of it — pretty much every day of their lives. Naturally, they got fewer upvotes than the “wish I were gay” fantasizers.
@brooke
If you read their articles then why do I need to provide proof that they hate feminism and think it’s a hate movement?
Where in my posts did I say feminists are bad? Where is my tone policing and where is my victim blaming? The tone was towards me, and I said something about it just like anyone else would.
@nameless wonder
How am I deflecting and trolling and all that other bullshit you think I’m doing?
http://i.imgur.com/PZsUIti.jpg
Some people are douches. All feminists and MRAs are people. Therefore some feminists and MRAs are douches.
@roxane:
Chill out. You keep demanding that people pointing out the problematic stuff in your posts need to do it again and again, even though the words are right there on the screen for you to read. Clearly, you can read, so don’t expect others to do it for you. You’ve entered the internet arguing phase of denying and deflecting in order to protect your self-image from what you deem a personal attack. That is completely unnecessary. People are criticizing your words, not who you are.
Take a step back, read through your opening post, then read the replies. Don’t just skim through them, like you seem to have done with many a useful comment; really read them. Don’t automatically assume everyone is attacking you personally, but take the time to understand what they are trying to say. Consider that you may have worded things poorly, and that others are not to blame for that. Consider that you may have subscribed to problematic views while writing your first post, and that you are always allowed, nay, encouraged, to reexamine your opinions and positions, and consider yourself educated.
I hope I don’t sound mansplainy in case you are here in good faith and just really confused about stuff, but stop trying your damndest to defend your position, and accept that it might be wrong. Many people commenting on this blog have a long history of dealing with MRAs and other misogynists, and know much about the mindset of abusers (sadly, many have first-hand experience). The “well a few feminists (as identified by them, not based on actual facts) have said bad things and that makes the MRA anger justified” position has been debunked over and over again.
Whether you want it or not, all your arguments are doing is supporting the narrative that people angry over losing privilege and power over another group have a moral ground to stand on; they don’t. Whether you meant it or not is irrelevant, because that’s how it reads.
@roxane, what is confusing me is, what is your goal here? What are you trying to accomplish? because what it seems like you want is for us to 1. Admit there are problematic feminists and 2. Agree that the problematic feminists are to blame for the MRAs. If that is not your goal, what is your goal?
Okay but what they’re saying is NOT what I’ve been saying.
No where did I say victims are at fault. Where am I deflecting in my posts? Just point out where I’m doing all these things.
Yes I can read and I have read, not skimmed.
Never in any of my posts did I say MRA’s are justified. Nor did I imply it. Why you think that is beyond me.
My point is….MRA’s are complaining about feminism and feminists. MRA’s think feminism is a hate group, yes because of what some feminists have said and yes I will point out what feminists the MRA’s are talking about.
My point is…..the MRA’s feel the need to hate and blame women and feminists because MRA’s SAY feminists blame and hate men.
Never did I say it was justified.
Never did I victim blame.
I am not deflecting.
I do not feel attacked.
No where in any of my posts did I say MRA’s aren’t misogynist.
I pointed out ONE feminist because men and the MRA’s have been having a field day with it.
Never did I say feminism and MRA’s are BOTH wrong.
Yes there has been misogyny long before feminism came along.
MRA’s did not exist back then. They are here now and are blaming feminism for whatever they feel like.
Once again….I am not blaming feminism and NOT justifying the MRA’s hatred. Merely pointing out what MRA’S are saying about feminism because MRA’S are pointing out what feminists are saying about men.
You want me to point it out? I will point it out but stop acting like it’s coming from me
@roxane, but why are you pointing it out, though? are you under the impression we’re unaware they blame feminists for everything, including their existence?
@roxane:
It’s… wow. It’s like you read what I wrote, word for word, yet didn’t understand any of it. It’s like you ignored the message in order to focus on the words, repeat them back to me while asking “where did I say this exact thing, word for word, because implications are not a thing” and carry on with making it all about you and revert to the narrative of everyone else being so meeeeeeaaaan to poor you. Like you’ve done with everyone else’s comments. I really shouldn’t be surprised.
You make no effort to see where others are coming from, yet you expect everyone else to believe your sincerity and “facts” and to go through your comments for you in order to point every single little thing that you could easily do yourself if you cared about anything else besides defending your ego.
I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt at first, but now I see you’re either an extremely immature person, or a troll. Your hostile attitude and insistence on intentionally not understanding what anyone else is saying while wasting everyone’s time by expecting them to repeat your own points to you (and still not getting it) strongly suggests that it’s possibly both.
Either way, you’re disingenuous, boring and way too frustrating a person to try to have a conversation with. I’m done with you.
@roxane:
People have claimed that feminists hate men since feminism existed. Even when feminists were just trying to get the vote, they were cast as frumpy hags and whiny babies that really just hated men.
Nothing modern feminists do will change what MRAs SAY about them because MRAs are not basing their beliefs on the actions of modern feminists. And even when they cherry-pick out a couple of historical (or current) extremists, they aren’t doing it because those extremists caused their hatred of feminism; they looked for the cherry-picked examples because the examples confirmed their prior beliefs.
That’s what cherry-picking is.
So no; MRAs do indeed SAY feminists blame and hate men, and perhaps they’ll even say that’s why they’re trolling or mocking feminists in their own misogynistic way. But it’s not actually based on real main-stream feminist behavior.
You’re asking feminism to not criticize (because that’s what the mockery’s purpose is) MRAs based on a faulty causal argument.
When you claim that MRAs will stop hating women and feminists if feminists stop mocking MRAs, you are in fact “victim blaming,” because you are saying that the behavior of feminists is what is causing the MRAs’ hatred.
Hey, remember when everyone was, like, “I miss Woody”? Maybe roxane is the new Woody?
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/dstfp.gif
Are you guys excite?
@roxane, in case you’re here in good faith
OK. Let’s give you the benefit of the doubt, put it down to poor writing skills on your part, and reword a block of your original text to try and see what the hell kind of message you were trying to convey.
Is this it?
Because this is STILL problematic. You’re trying to make sense of the woman-hating behaviour of MRA’s by using the reasons MRA’s have given in the articles you’ve read.
Error. Never rely on the reasons given by hate groups or hateful people to justify their own behaviour. The Men’s Right’s Movement has often been referred to as the ‘abuser’s lobby’. Abusive men are the last people you would turn to if you were trying to make sense of why they do what they do – they don’t give reasons, they give excuses, designed to divert your attention from what truly drives their behavior. So
is untrue. MRA’s do not think feminism is a hate group because of what they think other feminists say and do to men. This is an excuse they promote. MRA’s hate feminism because of a deep-rooted disrespect for women as a whole. MRA’s think feminism is a hate group because feminism promotes equality for women, which MRA’s don’t feel women should have.
Again, untrue. They laugh at women who get hurt because of a deep-rooted disrespect for women. “Because feminists laugh at men” is an excuse given to divert your attention from this core disrespect.
False. MRA’s attack feminism because feminism promotes equality, independence and respect for women. “We’re doing it to them because they do it us” is an excuse given to justify an already existing, hateful attitude towards women.
roxane, it’s coming across really strongly that you don’t actually know a great deal about the MRM, feminism or critical thinking in general. Your initial points are very naive, and even when the entirety of the comment section is baffled by you, you’re not picking up that the problem may lie with what you’ve said or how you presented it. Maybe step back for a while and spend time learning a bit – ok, a lot – more about the issues you’ve tried to discuss.
Fuck you too blockquote monster. Second try.
No it’s not because of what some feminists have said and you pointed out ONE feminist, whose name is mystery and beliefs are unknown, but who wrote the infamous 10% crap years ago.
You realize if you click on links under “misogyny central” to your right and check out some of those sites, they will have blog posts and message boards filled with plenty of vile, violent misogynist fantasies and fascistic daydreams of a society that strips “Western women” of all their current rights. There’s an endless amount of terrible misogynist and anti-feminist hate being written online today, right now. Plus the harassment of individual women who have been targeted.
You pointing out “what feminists the MRAs are talking about” is meaningless, particularly if you use their dated copy pasta list of evil feminist “quotes” that have been thoroughly debunked.
At this point I don’t give a shit about you think you’re saying because you keep repeating the same nonsense over and over.
@roxane
Once again, you’ve replied to NONE of my points and you STILL have yet to provide a single source to back up your argument about all the horrible things these feminists say
The problem is, this is NOT what feminists are saying about men. So far you’ve only provided ONE example of some ridiculous person who believes in enslaving men. Her view IS NOT representative of feminism, nor is she supported by feminism. Conversely, Paul Elam, who says equally offensive things, IS supported by MRAs. Thus, logical fallacy of false equivalency.
Where are the other examples that you claim exist?
And what is the point that you’re trying to make? That all MRAs have based their entire ideology on a flawed premise? Yes, they are immature idiots, we already know this. We make fun of them because of it. And if they even bothered to look up what feminism ACTUALLY is, they’d realize that feminists are fighting for the rights they claim to want!
Ninja’d by brooked. Well put! Now let’s see roxane address none of our points because ARF!
I just … I don’t even know what roxane’s doing anymore. As soon as I posted I heard the repetitious counter-argument in my head, “I wasn’t trying to figure out why they hate feminism. I was just repeating what MRAs have said”. But why? Did you think feminists, on a blog that tracks and mocks the MRM, didn’t already know all that? What was the point?
And now I’m arguing with imaginary roxane. Give me strength.
How many times has it been now where a new commenter leaps in with some seemingly problematic comment, but the actual content proves completely elusive when other commenters try to clarify or critique it? And then as everyone gets fed up arguing in circles and constantly being told they “just don’t get it,” a clarification is offered that makes the initial comment superbly mundane?
Seems like that’s been happening a bit recently… people making some seemingly profound statement, then desperately trying to defend it by discarding every problematic interpretation like a starfish discards limbs, until all that’s left is a circular tautology.
Oh, and yet another false equivalency: To my knowledge, no MRA has ever been violently physically attacked by a feminist (and if one has or ever does, we’d all denounce it as fucking disgusting). Meanwhile, how many feminists have been murdered by MRAs this year alone (with nothing but virtual high-fives from the manospherian masses)?
@Kirby
Who wants to bet they’re all the same idiot sockpuppeting it up?
@Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
I’ll definitely remember that for the next douchebag who tries to make the “well both sides have kinda done bad things so……” argument.
Slightly off-topic, but this is basically why I do not like TotalBiscuit one bit. He plays that card in order to defend GamerGate, pretending to act like some ‘neutral party’ when he very clearly is just making excuses for harassment of women in the game industry.
@kirbywarp, I vote anti-WHTM trolling conspiracy. It’s a last-ditch attempt to undermine the comment section through the power of sheer tedium. Which is a shame, I would much rather be undermined through the power of:
1. Concise, well-constructed, thoughtfully sourced arguments.
OR
2. Interpretive dance.
http://d3819ii77zvwic.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/interpretivedance.gif
@Scented Fucking Hard Chairs:
I wouldn’t because the odds aren’t great, but it’d explain a lot if they were. Like how they always seem to have the same script:
1. “XYZ”
2. “What? I’m not saying Y, I’m just saying XyZ. Stop being so rude.”
3. “You’re purposefully misunderstanding me when I say Xyz. Fuck you, I’m not backing up my claims, google it yourself.”
4. “Apparently merely offering X is forbidden around here. You all are very rude and mean and wilfully misinterpreting me.”
5. Long side-track conversation about W until flounce
Thing is, that’s also a pretty normal defensive script… so I dunno. Could easily be different people. Then again, there have been quite a number of trolls recently. So, conspiracy?
Conspiracy.
@Kirbywrap
Yay! Conspiracy time! Lemme break out the newspaper, thumb tacks and red string!
Go read your own posts. “How am I doing this, how am I doing that,” ect. That is deflection, and it is bullshit.
People are taking time to type out telling you exactly how you are doing it, yet you are feigning to pretend that nothing you have actually said is questionable and/or wrong. For that reason I do believe you are an MRA troll, precisely because I don’t do bullshit.
You still didn’t answer my question about paying feminists 10$ an hour to babysit the Internet. And here I thought MRAs were champions of free speech, but oh right, only speech that is abusive to women and girls.