So the other day some of the fellas on the Men’s Rights subreddit were having a strange little conversation. One Men’s Rights Redditor posted a clip from Bill Burr, in which the comedian complained that when his girlfriend hit him, he couldn’t hit her back without getting himself into a lot of trouble.
Instead of pointing his fellows to, I don’t know, resources for male victims of domestic abuse, the OP joked “This Is Why I Wish That I Was Sexually Attracted to Men.”
Yep, that’s right. He wants to date other men so, if the need arises, he can punch them.
Naturally, this being Reddit, other straight dudes jumped in with their own fantasies about how much easier life would be if they were gay. After all, jacKofKats pointed out, dating a guy would mean you could play video games with the very same person you have sex with, something obviously impossible in heterosexual relationships.
Oneiorosgrip agreed with the original poster that life would be much simpler and easier if guys could hit their mates:
Dolanduckeroo expressed envy towards his gay friends, who apparently lead lives of ease and endless zipless fucks, all the while being appreciated for who they truly are.
A few actual gay men wandered into the discussion, hoping to inject a bit of realism, pointing out (among other things) that gay men actually face something called “homophobia” — look it up if you haven’t heard of it — pretty much every day of their lives. Naturally, they got fewer upvotes than the “wish I were gay” fantasizers.
@sunnysombrera – IKR?
I’ve also noticed that this is the second or third time recently when we’ve had somebody do the “just ignore the trolls and they’ll go away!” line. Interesting considering that David’s gotten a lot of positive coverage recently because he DOESN’T ignore them. They doth protest too much, methinks…
Yes the beginning is what I am saying.
That the MRA’s are cherry picking what the minority of feminists are saying about men and then turn it around to women are feminists.
I like wehuntedthemammoth and I will stay.
Your sarcasm was uncalled for and if you had a bad day don’t take it out on me
To women and feminists*
Which is … ?
Examples are our friends. Otherwise it just looks like you pulled a random opinion about feminists, usually held by people who don’t know a great deal about feminism, out of the void.
I’m sorry that I offended you, roxane. Your post sounded a lot like what people often say when they’re here to troll (and folks with less-than-stellar intentions often start by resurrecting an old thread). My mistake. I’m still not sure what you’re trying to say beyond “don’t feed the trolls,” which isn’t what WHTM really does (if David ignored all the MRA trolls and commenters, he wouldn’t have a blog) and IME doesn’t seem to work anyway. Like Misha mentioned above, some examples would have helped bring the point across. Everyone has different ideas and opinions on what motivates and deters internet hate, though, so I’ll just leave it at that.
I’ve actually had a pretty good day, BTW. I hope you’re having the same, snarky internet jerks like myself notwithstanding.
http://cdn29.elitedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/kristen-wiig-cinderella-whatever-gif-i0-1.gif
LOL. No. Not for long victim blaming tone troller. Not for long.
MRAs hate feminists because they hate women, especially women who are not doormats. They do not hate us because some woman somewhere is a fault. They do it for the same reason all bigots do: They’re willfully ignorant, hateful shitlords.
You wanna be a doormat? Go for it. Just don’t claim that feminists anywhere blame men for …you never said what. I’m guessing you’re being vague for a reason and that reason is you don’t have the foggiest.
You haven’t offended. You’re just wrong. Sarcasm is definitely called for. If you do not like being ridiculed, try not being ridiculous. Take some time to educate yourself instead of coming in here and blaming women for men’s bad behavior and erroneous beliefs.
And yours are wrong. I’m glad we had this chat.
@Flying Mouse, I don’t think you have anything to be sorry for. Random roxane’s unpleasant mix of concern trolling and false equivalence bullshit is just stellar. “They blame women the same way feminists blame men”, “Because of what other feminists say and do to men”.
Right. I’m sure that the hurt feels of teh menz because women have dared to be snarky at them on the internet is completely equivalent to sending women rape and death threats, doxxing them, harassing them.
I’m willing to bet roxane hasn’t a single, cited, specific example to back up her vague assertions of all the wrong doing done by ‘those’ feminists.
Let’s not even get started on the ‘there’s always a woman to blame’ tone – MRA’s wouldn’t be so hateful if it weren’t for those pesky feminists!
Snark canon: Engaged.
Pfft. I come here specifically BECAUSE I can mock trolls, rather than politely ignoring them and getting piled on if I don’t engage with them correctly. Ignoring trolls hasn’t done much to keep them away from me; it just means they know their behavior will be tolerated.
@Misha – Eh, doesn’t cost me anything to apologize if roxane really is sincere but new to the whole feminism thing and kind of clueless. I was supremely clueless at one point myself.
If zie isn’t, then zie will find out exactly what sarcasm looks like. I thought my first comment was actually pretty restrained snarkwise. I am capable of more, so very much more.
@misha
Where in my comment was I victim blaming?
All I said was was that the MRA’s are doing what they think feminism is doing. So what is it that y’all don’t understand?And if he/she wants to apologize he/she would and he/she did.
Thanks for the apology.
When I say the minority of feminists I am pointing out what MRA’s usually bring up in their articles about what they think feminism is.
Yes some, maybe most, MRA’s hate women and feminists. No one said they didn’t
Roxane, you should be aware that the way people have talked to you here so far is fairly representative of the tone and nature of the community here. If that rubs you the wrong way, it will probably continue to do so.
Sorry that was meant for Lea, not misha.
No where in my post did “I” say feminism or feminists blame men.
MRA’s claim that the minority of feminists blame men. I never said feminism blame men. MRA’s think feminism and women blame men for all the ills in the world.
@roxane
Why did you pick this three year old post? Your opening about lesbians is pretty confusing as well.
Several of your points are very off-base and I’m going to add to the criticisms because that’s how we roll.
Misogyny predates feminism and someone can be a vocal misogynist without ever discussing or even having heard of feminism. In today’s world, Misogynist are usually anti-feminism and naturally attracted to MRA movement, in part because it’s really just a rebranding of anti-feminism that allows men to vilify both women and feminists while painting themselves as victims.
No, MRAs usually just make shit up because they typically don’t actually do any research about feminism, or any other topic they endlessly talk about, and they prefer to imaginary battle with straw feminists.
@brooke
Not every single word that they say is made up. When MRA’s refer to feminism as a hate movement they are doing so because of what a HANDFUL of Feminists have been saying about men. How do I know this? Because I’ve read their articles.
Do I agree with them? No I do not? Am I blaming women and feminists? No I am not. Are MRA’s blaming feminists and women? Yes THEY are. Why? Because MRA’s are doing what THEY think feminists are doing.
When that ONE feminist said the male population should be reduced to 10% guess what men did? They had a field day with it. And guess what they continue to do? Blame all women and feminists for what that ONE feminist said. And she dis say it.
Do I think all feminists think like her? NO. Am I blaming women and feminists for what she said? NO. Do I think feminism should go away because of her statement? No.
No where in any of my posts did I blame women or feminism.
I am not saying that feminists are to blame. I said that MRA’s are mocking and blaming Feminism because THEY feel that Feminism is blaming and mocking men.
Who is talking about misogyny? I never said they were or weren’t misogynist. I never even mentioned the word misogyny in any of my posts
I post 3 years later because I wanted to.
The point about lesbians is from the article that the MRA’s wrote about how easy life would be if they were gay. MRA’s think lesbians CHOOSE to be lesbians. So MRA’s are mocking lesbians by CHOOSING to be gay. Again…..MRA’s, NOT me, have this idea that Feminism is this and feminism is that and are therefore mocking the feminist movement. What don’t you get from my post that it’s not me but the MRA’s? How many times do I have to say it?
I don’t think MRAs COULD choose to be gay. I’m a spiteful, petty enough man to find the idea of them trying pretty fucking entertaining though. I don’t think they’d handle it well at ALL.
(Haven’t we had one gay MRA troll in the past?)
@roxane
Looks like I forgot one!
So I did a little research on “that one feminist” and, sure, there is one person out there who has this ridiculous belief at the ripe age of 22. Yet I can’t seem to find any evidence that she’s a feminist (instead calling herself the femitheist). I also fail to see any support by any feminists.
Now I have no problem with MRAs going to her site and let her know that her views are not ok. This does NOT mean that they get to take their aggression out on an entire movement that isn’t even affiliated with her to begin with.
But this is exactly how the MRAs think, many of them have been wronged by ONE women (sometimes they haven’t but believe they are because they are sexist asshats) and then decide to blame all women or all of feminism. This attitude is detrimental and I don’t think “well there’s this one man-hater out there…” is a suitable justification for their abhorrent actions.
If you know of an article about feminism by an MRA that’s well written, thoughtful and researched with real citations, please show it to me because I’ve never seen one. All the one’s I’ve seen from MRAs pale in comparison to the almost endless number criticisms of feminism that come from within, as there are plenty of disagreements and diversity within feminism worldwide. MRAs are mostly AVfM readers and 110,000 dopey redditors, a small and not particularly impressive group overall.
Feminism has a long storied history, a tradition of real activism and has influenced huge amount of academic and popular works. MRAs have a shitty 20-something year old book by Farrell. As much as they slobber over Christina Hoff Sommers, she’s part of a conservative anti-feminist polemic tradition that is not connected in any way to self-avowed MRAs. If GirlWritesWhat lecturing her toaster about male disposability in endless YouTube videos is the best that MRAs have to offer, they got nothing.
I think MRAs are generally fueled by misogyny rather than hurt feelings over mean things they think feminists said. We disagree, that’s fine.
@moocow
Why don’t you google it since you googled that “one feminist that wants the male population to be 10%”.
@brooke
I’ve never seen one either so what makes you think I can show you?
No where did I say MRA’s are right about feminism, no where did I say anything positive about them or their movement so what is that you don’t understand?
If you want citations then fine. Either you google it yourselves or wait.
And when I do show proof that THEY think feminism is a hate movement don’t give me that “oh well it’s imaginary straw feminists that they’re talking about….oh they haven’t researched feminism enough blah blah”.
Every body knows it’s filled with misogyny. I never said it wasn’t.
Either you accept that they hate feminism because of a few feminists or you blame misogyny.
Yes, because you’re a both-sides-are-bad, tone-policing, victim-blaming sealion. We’ve established that one already.
@roxane
Not how arguments work. You make the claim so the burden of proof falls on you. I went ahead and googled the only ‘feminist’ you actually made a specific claim about. And since you seem highly uninterested in discussing any of my points further, I think we can safely conclude that your claim is full of shit. But hey, I invite you to prove me wrong.
“And when I do show proof that THEY think feminism is a hate movement don’t give me that “oh well it’s imaginary straw feminists that they’re talking about….oh they haven’t researched feminism enough blah blah”.”
You haven’t shown anything. All you’ve been doing is talking in vague terms. As for MRAs not researching feminism enough, um, that’s 100% correct. They don’t know shit about feminism.
“Either you accept that they hate feminism because of a few feminists or you blame misogyny.”
**BZZZT** LOGICAL FALLACY #3: False dillemna
**BZZZT** LOGICAL FALLACY #77: Faulty Generalization
come back when you can logiks better.
Oh Roxxaaaaaaane,
You don’t care if it’s wrong or right.
Good of you to preemptively dismiss our rebuttal without engaging it, but I think you’ll find their hatred of feminism is in fact based on imaginary straw feminists. Whenever a woman does anything they don’t like, or there’s a trend that doesn’t benefit them, it’s blamed on feminists. They retroactively slap the label on just about anybody. Girl turned them down at a bar? Must be a feminist. Short hair, tattoos, overweight? Feminist. Advice columnist counsels woman to divorce her abusive husband? Feminist. School board passed anti-bullying measures? Obviously infiltrated by feminists. Their misogyny goggles turn just about everybody in the world into feminists, regardless of what they say or do.
I don’t even know what you’re trying to propose here. You’re saying MRAs are making up pernicious lies about feminists, but somehow we’re to blame? What are we supposed to do to correct their misperceptions? Good luck getting past all the denial and projection and convincing them the sky is blue.
You are aware that telling women they’re being mean meaniepants and upsetting teh menz is a classic silencing tactic, right? So far, you’re not doing a very good job convincing us you’re on our side.
Okay. I blame misogyny. Glad we cleared that up.
@roxane
You can also argue that they don’t believe what they say about feminism because they are being disingenuous or intellectually dishonest. They could have convinced themselves that their unsubstantiated prejudices against women and feminists are proven facts. There are presumably numerous factors involved, people are complicated.
I’m not interested in playing this guessing game or attempting to read the collective mind of MRAs. All that matters to me is that they aren’t usually worth engaging with and they can’t intelligently discuss feminism because they’re too busy turning feminists into their cartoonish arch enemies and blaming feminism for all the world’s woes.
MRAs who refer to feminism as a hate movement are full of shit. I’ve read their “articles” and they’re embarrassingly simple minded and useless.
That statement is incorrect and overly simplistic. There is no one thing that explains the origins of the entire MRA “movement” and their behavior.
JFC. I don’t even know what the point of this discussion is. It started out confused and just continues to become more confusing with every new post.
I am new to this blog, but I am not new to the fact that MRA culture prides itself on trolling, and is replete with defensiveness, deflection of responsibility and justification of irresponsible statements under the pretense of mansplainin’ the importance of the male ego. Your comments resemble this description, roxane, and nobody here is obtuse to any of that, I can assure you.
Of course the MRA’s feelings are hurt. A woman being anything less than a complete doormat and servile house pet is considered offensive to them. So what? Of course the MRAs are upset that one lone Twitter weirdo might have said something bizarre that felt crushing to their presumed unconditional worth as males. So what? The Internet is full of kooky people, does that mean feminists must now run around making grand statements about and/or babysitting every Twitter account that goes rogue? Exactly how much unpaid labor do you expect feminists to perform on the Internet? Are you willing to personally reimburse Internet babysitters at least 10$ an hour to address each and every insult (real or not) on social media that offends the delicate sensitivities of MRAs?
Then to say nothing about Paul Elam saying that women are crazy and “getting rid of her without resorting to the use of duct tape, plastic bags, and shovels can get a lot more complicated” which in a round about way indirectly endorses murder. The difference between Paul Elam and a lone Twitter weirdo is that nobody in the feminist world is listening to the Lone Twitter Weirdo but hundreds of abusive misogynist bigots are listening to Paul Elam. If I’d have an issue to pick, I’d say the privileged WASP male with a flock of potentially dangerous fans is a more pressing human rights issue than a lone weirdo on Twitter.
This is all providing Lone Twitter Weirdo exists, and at this point I’m doubtful; and considering taking the name as a tongue-in-cheek reminder to any MRA who thinks I’m dumb enough to believe what they say without evidence.