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The Punch and Punch Show: Men’s Rights Redditors fantasize about how much easier life would be if they were gay

God made Punch and Judy, Not Punch and Punch

So the other day some of the fellas on the Men’s Rights subreddit were having a strange little conversation. One  Men’s Rights Redditor posted a clip from Bill Burr, in which the comedian complained that when his girlfriend hit him, he couldn’t hit her back without getting himself into a lot of trouble.

Instead of pointing his fellows to, I don’t know, resources for male victims of domestic abuse, the OP joked “This Is Why I Wish That I Was Sexually Attracted to Men.”

Yep, that’s right. He wants to date other men so, if the need arises, he can punch them.

Naturally, this being Reddit, other straight dudes jumped in with their own fantasies about how much easier life would be if they were gay. After all, jacKofKats pointed out, dating a guy would mean you could play video games with the very same person you have sex with, something obviously impossible in heterosexual relationships.

Oneiorosgrip agreed with the original poster that life would be much simpler and easier if guys could hit their mates:

Dolanduckeroo expressed envy towards his gay friends, who apparently lead lives of ease and endless zipless fucks, all the while being appreciated for who they truly are.

A few actual gay men wandered into the discussion, hoping to inject a bit of realism, pointing out (among other things) that gay men actually face something called “homophobia” — look it up if you haven’t heard of it — pretty much every day of their lives. Naturally, they got fewer upvotes than the “wish I were gay” fantasizers.

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Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
6 years ago

@sunnysombrera – IKR?

I’ve also noticed that this is the second or third time recently when we’ve had somebody do the “just ignore the trolls and they’ll go away!” line. Interesting considering that David’s gotten a lot of positive coverage recently because he DOESN’T ignore them. They doth protest too much, methinks…

roxane
roxane
6 years ago

Yes the beginning is what I am saying.

That the MRA’s are cherry picking what the minority of feminists are saying about men and then turn it around to women are feminists.

I like wehuntedthemammoth and I will stay.

Your sarcasm was uncalled for and if you had a bad day don’t take it out on me

roxane
roxane
6 years ago

To women and feminists*

Misha
Misha
6 years ago

what the minority of feminists are saying about men

Which is … ?

Examples are our friends. Otherwise it just looks like you pulled a random opinion about feminists, usually held by people who don’t know a great deal about feminism, out of the void.

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
6 years ago

I’m sorry that I offended you, roxane. Your post sounded a lot like what people often say when they’re here to troll (and folks with less-than-stellar intentions often start by resurrecting an old thread). My mistake. I’m still not sure what you’re trying to say beyond “don’t feed the trolls,” which isn’t what WHTM really does (if David ignored all the MRA trolls and commenters, he wouldn’t have a blog) and IME doesn’t seem to work anyway. Like Misha mentioned above, some examples would have helped bring the point across. Everyone has different ideas and opinions on what motivates and deters internet hate, though, so I’ll just leave it at that.

I’ve actually had a pretty good day, BTW. I hope you’re having the same, snarky internet jerks like myself notwithstanding.

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

I like wehuntedthemammoth and I will stay.

http://cdn29.elitedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/kristen-wiig-cinderella-whatever-gif-i0-1.gif

LOL. No. Not for long victim blaming tone troller. Not for long.
MRAs hate feminists because they hate women, especially women who are not doormats. They do not hate us because some woman somewhere is a fault. They do it for the same reason all bigots do: They’re willfully ignorant, hateful shitlords.

You wanna be a doormat? Go for it. Just don’t claim that feminists anywhere blame men for …you never said what. I’m guessing you’re being vague for a reason and that reason is you don’t have the foggiest.

You haven’t offended. You’re just wrong. Sarcasm is definitely called for. If you do not like being ridiculed, try not being ridiculous. Take some time to educate yourself instead of coming in here and blaming women for men’s bad behavior and erroneous beliefs.

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

Everyone has different ideas and opinions

And yours are wrong. I’m glad we had this chat.

Misha
Misha
6 years ago

@Flying Mouse, I don’t think you have anything to be sorry for. Random roxane’s unpleasant mix of concern trolling and false equivalence bullshit is just stellar. “They blame women the same way feminists blame men”, “Because of what other feminists say and do to men”.

Right. I’m sure that the hurt feels of teh menz because women have dared to be snarky at them on the internet is completely equivalent to sending women rape and death threats, doxxing them, harassing them.

I’m willing to bet roxane hasn’t a single, cited, specific example to back up her vague assertions of all the wrong doing done by ‘those’ feminists.

Let’s not even get started on the ‘there’s always a woman to blame’ tone – MRA’s wouldn’t be so hateful if it weren’t for those pesky feminists!

Snark canon: Engaged.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

Pfft. I come here specifically BECAUSE I can mock trolls, rather than politely ignoring them and getting piled on if I don’t engage with them correctly. Ignoring trolls hasn’t done much to keep them away from me; it just means they know their behavior will be tolerated.

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
6 years ago

@Misha – Eh, doesn’t cost me anything to apologize if roxane really is sincere but new to the whole feminism thing and kind of clueless. I was supremely clueless at one point myself.

If zie isn’t, then zie will find out exactly what sarcasm looks like. I thought my first comment was actually pretty restrained snarkwise. I am capable of more, so very much more.

roxane
roxane
6 years ago

@misha

Where in my comment was I victim blaming?

All I said was was that the MRA’s are doing what they think feminism is doing. So what is it that y’all don’t understand?And if he/she wants to apologize he/she would and he/she did.

Thanks for the apology.

When I say the minority of feminists I am pointing out what MRA’s usually bring up in their articles about what they think feminism is.

Yes some, maybe most, MRA’s hate women and feminists. No one said they didn’t

katz
6 years ago

Roxane, you should be aware that the way people have talked to you here so far is fairly representative of the tone and nature of the community here. If that rubs you the wrong way, it will probably continue to do so.

roxane
roxane
6 years ago

Sorry that was meant for Lea, not misha.

No where in my post did “I” say feminism or feminists blame men.

MRA’s claim that the minority of feminists blame men. I never said feminism blame men. MRA’s think feminism and women blame men for all the ills in the world.

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

@roxane

Why did you pick this three year old post? Your opening about lesbians is pretty confusing as well.

Several of your points are very off-base and I’m going to add to the criticisms because that’s how we roll.

MRA’s are giving feminism what they think feminists give men. I think feminists should realize this and ignore all the MRA trolls. If they think feminists hate men then they are going to mock feminism by hating women.

Misogyny predates feminism and someone can be a vocal misogynist without ever discussing or even having heard of feminism. In today’s world, Misogynist are usually anti-feminism and naturally attracted to MRA movement, in part because it’s really just a rebranding of anti-feminism that allows men to vilify both women and feminists while painting themselves as victims.

MRA’s are cherry picking what the minority of feminists are saying about men and then turn it around to women are feminists.

No, MRAs usually just make shit up because they typically don’t actually do any research about feminism, or any other topic they endlessly talk about, and they prefer to imaginary battle with straw feminists.

roxane
roxane
6 years ago

@brooke

Not every single word that they say is made up. When MRA’s refer to feminism as a hate movement they are doing so because of what a HANDFUL of Feminists have been saying about men. How do I know this? Because I’ve read their articles.
Do I agree with them? No I do not? Am I blaming women and feminists? No I am not. Are MRA’s blaming feminists and women? Yes THEY are. Why? Because MRA’s are doing what THEY think feminists are doing.
When that ONE feminist said the male population should be reduced to 10% guess what men did? They had a field day with it. And guess what they continue to do? Blame all women and feminists for what that ONE feminist said. And she dis say it.
Do I think all feminists think like her? NO. Am I blaming women and feminists for what she said? NO. Do I think feminism should go away because of her statement? No.
No where in any of my posts did I blame women or feminism.

I am not saying that feminists are to blame. I said that MRA’s are mocking and blaming Feminism because THEY feel that Feminism is blaming and mocking men.

Who is talking about misogyny? I never said they were or weren’t misogynist. I never even mentioned the word misogyny in any of my posts

I post 3 years later because I wanted to.

The point about lesbians is from the article that the MRA’s wrote about how easy life would be if they were gay. MRA’s think lesbians CHOOSE to be lesbians. So MRA’s are mocking lesbians by CHOOSING to be gay. Again…..MRA’s, NOT me, have this idea that Feminism is this and feminism is that and are therefore mocking the feminist movement. What don’t you get from my post that it’s not me but the MRA’s? How many times do I have to say it?

Moocow
Moocow
6 years ago

Not every single word that they say is made up. When MRA’s refer to feminism as a hate movement they are doing so because of what a HANDFUL of Feminists have been saying about men. How do I know this? Because I’ve read their articles.</blockquote

[citation needed]

I keep hearing about these mythical "hateful man-hating feminazi". Sooooo where are they? You make a claim like you've read their articles. Cool! Give a link to support your argument then.

Also, I'm thrilled to hear that not every single word they say is made up.

Do I agree with them? No I do not? Am I blaming women and feminists? No I am not. Are MRA’s blaming feminists and women? Yes THEY are. Why? Because MRA’s are doing what THEY think feminists are doing.

Ok well that’s the problem, if the justification for their BLATANT misogyny is based off of an imaginary straw feminists that live in their heads (and by the way, the man-hating straw feminist stereotype was started by anti-feminists. It’s not actually real), then that’s the worst justification I’ve ever heard for their behavior.

I am not saying that feminists are to blame. I said that MRA’s are mocking and blaming Feminism because THEY feel that Feminism is blaming and mocking men.

If it’s what they truly believe then it’s their own damn fault. Feminism does NOT blame or mock men. If this really is the reason for all of their bile and hatred (and I’m inclined to believe that’s not the case) then they are even more repugnant because they’ve based their entire hatred on a made up straw-feminist that lives in their head.

The point about lesbians is from the article that the MRA’s wrote about how easy life would be if they were gay. MRA’s think lesbians CHOOSE to be lesbians. So MRA’s are mocking lesbians by CHOOSING to be gay. Again…..MRA’s, NOT me, have this idea that Feminism is this and feminism is that and are therefore mocking the feminist movement. What don’t you get from my post that it’s not me but the MRA’s? How many times do I have to say it?

No, I don’t think that’s what this is about at all, they’re obviously not “mockingly choosing to be gay”, they’re WISHING that they were. It seems to be just them projecting their desires (they want sex) onto bullshit stereotypes (all gay men are promiscuous) and once again managing to make themselves look like assholes.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

I don’t think MRAs COULD choose to be gay. I’m a spiteful, petty enough man to find the idea of them trying pretty fucking entertaining though. I don’t think they’d handle it well at ALL.

(Haven’t we had one gay MRA troll in the past?)

Moocow
Moocow
6 years ago

@roxane

Looks like I forgot one!

When that ONE feminist said the male population should be reduced to 10% guess what men did? They had a field day with it. And guess what they continue to do? Blame all women and feminists for what that ONE feminist said. And she dis say it.

So I did a little research on “that one feminist” and, sure, there is one person out there who has this ridiculous belief at the ripe age of 22. Yet I can’t seem to find any evidence that she’s a feminist (instead calling herself the femitheist). I also fail to see any support by any feminists.

Now I have no problem with MRAs going to her site and let her know that her views are not ok. This does NOT mean that they get to take their aggression out on an entire movement that isn’t even affiliated with her to begin with.

But this is exactly how the MRAs think, many of them have been wronged by ONE women (sometimes they haven’t but believe they are because they are sexist asshats) and then decide to blame all women or all of feminism. This attitude is detrimental and I don’t think “well there’s this one man-hater out there…” is a suitable justification for their abhorrent actions.

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

Because I’ve read their articles.

If you know of an article about feminism by an MRA that’s well written, thoughtful and researched with real citations, please show it to me because I’ve never seen one. All the one’s I’ve seen from MRAs pale in comparison to the almost endless number criticisms of feminism that come from within, as there are plenty of disagreements and diversity within feminism worldwide. MRAs are mostly AVfM readers and 110,000 dopey redditors, a small and not particularly impressive group overall.

Feminism has a long storied history, a tradition of real activism and has influenced huge amount of academic and popular works. MRAs have a shitty 20-something year old book by Farrell. As much as they slobber over Christina Hoff Sommers, she’s part of a conservative anti-feminist polemic tradition that is not connected in any way to self-avowed MRAs. If GirlWritesWhat lecturing her toaster about male disposability in endless YouTube videos is the best that MRAs have to offer, they got nothing.

I am not saying that feminists are to blame. I said that MRA’s are mocking and blaming Feminism because THEY feel that Feminism is blaming and mocking men.

Who is talking about misogyny? I never said they were or weren’t misogynist. I never even mentioned the word misogyny in any of my posts.

I think MRAs are generally fueled by misogyny rather than hurt feelings over mean things they think feminists said. We disagree, that’s fine.

roxane
roxane
6 years ago

@moocow

Why don’t you google it since you googled that “one feminist that wants the male population to be 10%”.

@brooke
I’ve never seen one either so what makes you think I can show you?
No where did I say MRA’s are right about feminism, no where did I say anything positive about them or their movement so what is that you don’t understand?

If you want citations then fine. Either you google it yourselves or wait.
And when I do show proof that THEY think feminism is a hate movement don’t give me that “oh well it’s imaginary straw feminists that they’re talking about….oh they haven’t researched feminism enough blah blah”.
Every body knows it’s filled with misogyny. I never said it wasn’t.
Either you accept that they hate feminism because of a few feminists or you blame misogyny.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
6 years ago

No where did I say MRA’s are right about feminism, no where did I say anything positive about them or their movement so what is that you don’t understand?

Yes, because you’re a both-sides-are-bad, tone-policing, victim-blaming sealion. We’ve established that one already.

Moocow
Moocow
6 years ago

@roxane

Not how arguments work. You make the claim so the burden of proof falls on you. I went ahead and googled the only ‘feminist’ you actually made a specific claim about. And since you seem highly uninterested in discussing any of my points further, I think we can safely conclude that your claim is full of shit. But hey, I invite you to prove me wrong.

“And when I do show proof that THEY think feminism is a hate movement don’t give me that “oh well it’s imaginary straw feminists that they’re talking about….oh they haven’t researched feminism enough blah blah”.”

You haven’t shown anything. All you’ve been doing is talking in vague terms. As for MRAs not researching feminism enough, um, that’s 100% correct. They don’t know shit about feminism.

“Either you accept that they hate feminism because of a few feminists or you blame misogyny.”

**BZZZT** LOGICAL FALLACY #3: False dillemna
**BZZZT** LOGICAL FALLACY #77: Faulty Generalization

come back when you can logiks better.

Oh Roxxaaaaaaane,
You don’t care if it’s wrong or right.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
6 years ago

And when I do show proof that THEY think feminism is a hate movement don’t give me that “oh well it’s imaginary straw feminists that they’re talking about….oh they haven’t researched feminism enough blah blah

Good of you to preemptively dismiss our rebuttal without engaging it, but I think you’ll find their hatred of feminism is in fact based on imaginary straw feminists. Whenever a woman does anything they don’t like, or there’s a trend that doesn’t benefit them, it’s blamed on feminists. They retroactively slap the label on just about anybody. Girl turned them down at a bar? Must be a feminist. Short hair, tattoos, overweight? Feminist. Advice columnist counsels woman to divorce her abusive husband? Feminist. School board passed anti-bullying measures? Obviously infiltrated by feminists. Their misogyny goggles turn just about everybody in the world into feminists, regardless of what they say or do.

I don’t even know what you’re trying to propose here. You’re saying MRAs are making up pernicious lies about feminists, but somehow we’re to blame? What are we supposed to do to correct their misperceptions? Good luck getting past all the denial and projection and convincing them the sky is blue.

You are aware that telling women they’re being mean meaniepants and upsetting teh menz is a classic silencing tactic, right? So far, you’re not doing a very good job convincing us you’re on our side.

Either you accept that they hate feminism because of a few feminists or you blame misogyny.

Okay. I blame misogyny. Glad we cleared that up.

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

@roxane

And when I do show proof that THEY think feminism is a hate movement don’t give me that “oh well it’s imaginary straw feminists that they’re talking about….oh they haven’t researched feminism enough blah blah”.
Every body knows it’s filled with misogyny. I never said it wasn’t.
Either you accept that they hate feminism because of a few feminists or you blame misogyny.

You can also argue that they don’t believe what they say about feminism because they are being disingenuous or intellectually dishonest. They could have convinced themselves that their unsubstantiated prejudices against women and feminists are proven facts. There are presumably numerous factors involved, people are complicated.

I’m not interested in playing this guessing game or attempting to read the collective mind of MRAs. All that matters to me is that they aren’t usually worth engaging with and they can’t intelligently discuss feminism because they’re too busy turning feminists into their cartoonish arch enemies and blaming feminism for all the world’s woes.

Not every single word that they say is made up. When MRA’s refer to feminism as a hate movement they are doing so because of what a HANDFUL of Feminists have been saying about men. How do I know this? Because I’ve read their articles.

MRAs who refer to feminism as a hate movement are full of shit. I’ve read their “articles” and they’re embarrassingly simple minded and useless.

I said that MRA’s are mocking and blaming Feminism because THEY feel that Feminism is blaming and mocking men.

That statement is incorrect and overly simplistic. There is no one thing that explains the origins of the entire MRA “movement” and their behavior.

JFC. I don’t even know what the point of this discussion is. It started out confused and just continues to become more confusing with every new post.

Nameless Wonder
Nameless Wonder
6 years ago

I am new to this blog, but I am not new to the fact that MRA culture prides itself on trolling, and is replete with defensiveness, deflection of responsibility and justification of irresponsible statements under the pretense of mansplainin’ the importance of the male ego. Your comments resemble this description, roxane, and nobody here is obtuse to any of that, I can assure you.

Of course the MRA’s feelings are hurt. A woman being anything less than a complete doormat and servile house pet is considered offensive to them. So what? Of course the MRAs are upset that one lone Twitter weirdo might have said something bizarre that felt crushing to their presumed unconditional worth as males. So what? The Internet is full of kooky people, does that mean feminists must now run around making grand statements about and/or babysitting every Twitter account that goes rogue? Exactly how much unpaid labor do you expect feminists to perform on the Internet? Are you willing to personally reimburse Internet babysitters at least 10$ an hour to address each and every insult (real or not) on social media that offends the delicate sensitivities of MRAs?

Then to say nothing about Paul Elam saying that women are crazy and “getting rid of her without resorting to the use of duct tape, plastic bags, and shovels can get a lot more complicated” which in a round about way indirectly endorses murder. The difference between Paul Elam and a lone Twitter weirdo is that nobody in the feminist world is listening to the Lone Twitter Weirdo but hundreds of abusive misogynist bigots are listening to Paul Elam. If I’d have an issue to pick, I’d say the privileged WASP male with a flock of potentially dangerous fans is a more pressing human rights issue than a lone weirdo on Twitter.

This is all providing Lone Twitter Weirdo exists, and at this point I’m doubtful; and considering taking the name as a tongue-in-cheek reminder to any MRA who thinks I’m dumb enough to believe what they say without evidence.

roxane
roxane
6 years ago

@brooke
If you read their articles then why do I need to provide proof that they hate feminism and think it’s a hate movement?
Where in my posts did I say feminists are bad? Where is my tone policing and where is my victim blaming? The tone was towards me, and I said something about it just like anyone else would.
@nameless wonder
How am I deflecting and trolling and all that other bullshit you think I’m doing?

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
6 years ago
kingofdogs
kingofdogs
6 years ago

Some people are douches. All feminists and MRAs are people. Therefore some feminists and MRAs are douches.

Anarchonist
Anarchonist
6 years ago

@roxane:

Chill out. You keep demanding that people pointing out the problematic stuff in your posts need to do it again and again, even though the words are right there on the screen for you to read. Clearly, you can read, so don’t expect others to do it for you. You’ve entered the internet arguing phase of denying and deflecting in order to protect your self-image from what you deem a personal attack. That is completely unnecessary. People are criticizing your words, not who you are.

Take a step back, read through your opening post, then read the replies. Don’t just skim through them, like you seem to have done with many a useful comment; really read them. Don’t automatically assume everyone is attacking you personally, but take the time to understand what they are trying to say. Consider that you may have worded things poorly, and that others are not to blame for that. Consider that you may have subscribed to problematic views while writing your first post, and that you are always allowed, nay, encouraged, to reexamine your opinions and positions, and consider yourself educated.

I hope I don’t sound mansplainy in case you are here in good faith and just really confused about stuff, but stop trying your damndest to defend your position, and accept that it might be wrong. Many people commenting on this blog have a long history of dealing with MRAs and other misogynists, and know much about the mindset of abusers (sadly, many have first-hand experience). The “well a few feminists (as identified by them, not based on actual facts) have said bad things and that makes the MRA anger justified” position has been debunked over and over again.

Whether you want it or not, all your arguments are doing is supporting the narrative that people angry over losing privilege and power over another group have a moral ground to stand on; they don’t. Whether you meant it or not is irrelevant, because that’s how it reads.

isidore13
isidore13
6 years ago

@roxane, what is confusing me is, what is your goal here? What are you trying to accomplish? because what it seems like you want is for us to 1. Admit there are problematic feminists and 2. Agree that the problematic feminists are to blame for the MRAs. If that is not your goal, what is your goal?

roxane
roxane
6 years ago

Okay but what they’re saying is NOT what I’ve been saying.
No where did I say victims are at fault. Where am I deflecting in my posts? Just point out where I’m doing all these things.
Yes I can read and I have read, not skimmed.
Never in any of my posts did I say MRA’s are justified. Nor did I imply it. Why you think that is beyond me.
My point is….MRA’s are complaining about feminism and feminists. MRA’s think feminism is a hate group, yes because of what some feminists have said and yes I will point out what feminists the MRA’s are talking about.
My point is…..the MRA’s feel the need to hate and blame women and feminists because MRA’s SAY feminists blame and hate men.
Never did I say it was justified.
Never did I victim blame.
I am not deflecting.
I do not feel attacked.
No where in any of my posts did I say MRA’s aren’t misogynist.
I pointed out ONE feminist because men and the MRA’s have been having a field day with it.
Never did I say feminism and MRA’s are BOTH wrong.

roxane
roxane
6 years ago

Yes there has been misogyny long before feminism came along.
MRA’s did not exist back then. They are here now and are blaming feminism for whatever they feel like.
Once again….I am not blaming feminism and NOT justifying the MRA’s hatred. Merely pointing out what MRA’S are saying about feminism because MRA’S are pointing out what feminists are saying about men.
You want me to point it out? I will point it out but stop acting like it’s coming from me

isidore13
isidore13
6 years ago

@roxane, but why are you pointing it out, though? are you under the impression we’re unaware they blame feminists for everything, including their existence?

Anarchonist
Anarchonist
6 years ago

@roxane:
comment image

It’s… wow. It’s like you read what I wrote, word for word, yet didn’t understand any of it. It’s like you ignored the message in order to focus on the words, repeat them back to me while asking “where did I say this exact thing, word for word, because implications are not a thing” and carry on with making it all about you and revert to the narrative of everyone else being so meeeeeeaaaan to poor you. Like you’ve done with everyone else’s comments. I really shouldn’t be surprised.

You make no effort to see where others are coming from, yet you expect everyone else to believe your sincerity and “facts” and to go through your comments for you in order to point every single little thing that you could easily do yourself if you cared about anything else besides defending your ego.

I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt at first, but now I see you’re either an extremely immature person, or a troll. Your hostile attitude and insistence on intentionally not understanding what anyone else is saying while wasting everyone’s time by expecting them to repeat your own points to you (and still not getting it) strongly suggests that it’s possibly both.

Either way, you’re disingenuous, boring and way too frustrating a person to try to have a conversation with. I’m done with you.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

@roxane:

My point is….MRA’s are complaining about feminism and feminists. MRA’s think feminism is a hate group, yes because of what some feminists have said and yes I will point out what feminists the MRA’s are talking about.
My point is…..the MRA’s feel the need to hate and blame women and feminists because MRA’s SAY feminists blame and hate men.

People have claimed that feminists hate men since feminism existed. Even when feminists were just trying to get the vote, they were cast as frumpy hags and whiny babies that really just hated men.

Nothing modern feminists do will change what MRAs SAY about them because MRAs are not basing their beliefs on the actions of modern feminists. And even when they cherry-pick out a couple of historical (or current) extremists, they aren’t doing it because those extremists caused their hatred of feminism; they looked for the cherry-picked examples because the examples confirmed their prior beliefs.

That’s what cherry-picking is.

So no; MRAs do indeed SAY feminists blame and hate men, and perhaps they’ll even say that’s why they’re trolling or mocking feminists in their own misogynistic way. But it’s not actually based on real main-stream feminist behavior.

You’re asking feminism to not criticize (because that’s what the mockery’s purpose is) MRAs based on a faulty causal argument.

Never did I victim blame.

When you claim that MRAs will stop hating women and feminists if feminists stop mocking MRAs, you are in fact “victim blaming,” because you are saying that the behavior of feminists is what is causing the MRAs’ hatred.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
6 years ago

Hey, remember when everyone was, like, “I miss Woody”? Maybe roxane is the new Woody?

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/dstfp.gif

Are you guys excite?

Misha
Misha
6 years ago

@roxane, in case you’re here in good faith

OK. Let’s give you the benefit of the doubt, put it down to poor writing skills on your part, and reword a block of your original text to try and see what the hell kind of message you were trying to convey.

MRA’s think feminism is a hate group because of what they think other feminists say and do to men, so guess what the MRA’s do? They attack women. They write articles on how women, especially lesbians and feminists, should be punished for doing the “same” thing men do. They laugh at women who get hurt, because they think feminists laugh at men. They blame women the same way they think feminists blame men.

MRA’s are giving feminism what they think feminists give men. I think feminists should realize this and ignore all the MRA trolls. If they think feminists hate men they are going to mock feminism by hating women.

Is this it?

Because this is STILL problematic. You’re trying to make sense of the woman-hating behaviour of MRA’s by using the reasons MRA’s have given in the articles you’ve read.

Error. Never rely on the reasons given by hate groups or hateful people to justify their own behaviour. The Men’s Right’s Movement has often been referred to as the ‘abuser’s lobby’. Abusive men are the last people you would turn to if you were trying to make sense of why they do what they do – they don’t give reasons, they give excuses, designed to divert your attention from what truly drives their behavior. So

MRA’s think feminism is a hate group because of what they think other feminists say and do to men

is untrue. MRA’s do not think feminism is a hate group because of what they think other feminists say and do to men. This is an excuse they promote. MRA’s hate feminism because of a deep-rooted disrespect for women as a whole. MRA’s think feminism is a hate group because feminism promotes equality for women, which MRA’s don’t feel women should have.

They laugh at women who get hurt, because they think feminists laugh at men.

Again, untrue. They laugh at women who get hurt because of a deep-rooted disrespect for women. “Because feminists laugh at men” is an excuse given to divert your attention from this core disrespect.

MRA’s are giving feminism what they think feminists give men.

False. MRA’s attack feminism because feminism promotes equality, independence and respect for women. “We’re doing it to them because they do it us” is an excuse given to justify an already existing, hateful attitude towards women.

roxane, it’s coming across really strongly that you don’t actually know a great deal about the MRM, feminism or critical thinking in general. Your initial points are very naive, and even when the entirety of the comment section is baffled by you, you’re not picking up that the problem may lie with what you’ve said or how you presented it. Maybe step back for a while and spend time learning a bit – ok, a lot – more about the issues you’ve tried to discuss.

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

MRA’s think feminism is a hate group, yes because of what some feminists have said and yes I will point out what feminists the MRA’s are talking about.

No it’s not because of what some feminists have said and you pointed out ONE feminist, whose name is mystery and beliefs are unknown, but who wrote the infamous 10% crap years ago.

You realize if you click on links under “misogyny central” to your right and check out some of those sites, they will have blog posts and message boards filled with plenty of vile, violent misogynist fantasies and fascistic daydreams of a society that strips “Western women” of all their current rights. There’s an endless amount of terrible misogynist and anti-feminist hate being written online today, right now. Plus the harassment of individual women who have been targeted.

You pointing out “what feminists the MRAs are talking about” is meaningless, particularly if you use their dated copy pasta list of evil feminist “quotes” that have been thoroughly debunked.

At this point I don’t give a shit about you think you’re saying because you keep repeating the same nonsense over and over.

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

Fuck you too blockquote monster. Second try.

MRA’s think feminism is a hate group, yes because of what some feminists have said and yes I will point out what feminists the MRA’s are talking about.

No it’s not because of what some feminists have said and you pointed out ONE feminist, whose name is mystery and beliefs are unknown, but who wrote the infamous 10% crap years ago.

You realize if you click on links under “misogyny central” to your right and check out some of those sites, they will have blog posts and message boards filled with plenty of vile, violent misogynist fantasies and fascistic daydreams of a society that strips “Western women” of all their current rights. There’s an endless amount of terrible misogynist and anti-feminist hate being written online today, right now. Plus the harassment of individual women who have been targeted.

You pointing out “what feminists the MRAs are talking about” is meaningless, particularly if you use their dated copy pasta list of evil feminist “quotes” that have been thoroughly debunked.

At this point I don’t give a shit about you think you’re saying because you keep repeating the same nonsense over and over.

Moocow
Moocow
6 years ago

@roxane

Once again, you’ve replied to NONE of my points and you STILL have yet to provide a single source to back up your argument about all the horrible things these feminists say

I am not blaming feminism and NOT justifying the MRA’s hatred. Merely pointing out what MRA’S are saying about feminism because MRA’S are pointing out what feminists are saying about men.

The problem is, this is NOT what feminists are saying about men. So far you’ve only provided ONE example of some ridiculous person who believes in enslaving men. Her view IS NOT representative of feminism, nor is she supported by feminism. Conversely, Paul Elam, who says equally offensive things, IS supported by MRAs. Thus, logical fallacy of false equivalency.

Where are the other examples that you claim exist?

And what is the point that you’re trying to make? That all MRAs have based their entire ideology on a flawed premise? Yes, they are immature idiots, we already know this. We make fun of them because of it. And if they even bothered to look up what feminism ACTUALLY is, they’d realize that feminists are fighting for the rights they claim to want!

Moocow
Moocow
6 years ago

Ninja’d by brooked. Well put! Now let’s see roxane address none of our points because ARF!

Misha
Misha
6 years ago

I just … I don’t even know what roxane’s doing anymore. As soon as I posted I heard the repetitious counter-argument in my head, “I wasn’t trying to figure out why they hate feminism. I was just repeating what MRAs have said”. But why? Did you think feminists, on a blog that tracks and mocks the MRM, didn’t already know all that? What was the point?

And now I’m arguing with imaginary roxane. Give me strength.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

How many times has it been now where a new commenter leaps in with some seemingly problematic comment, but the actual content proves completely elusive when other commenters try to clarify or critique it? And then as everyone gets fed up arguing in circles and constantly being told they “just don’t get it,” a clarification is offered that makes the initial comment superbly mundane?

Seems like that’s been happening a bit recently… people making some seemingly profound statement, then desperately trying to defend it by discarding every problematic interpretation like a starfish discards limbs, until all that’s left is a circular tautology.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
6 years ago

Oh, and yet another false equivalency: To my knowledge, no MRA has ever been violently physically attacked by a feminist (and if one has or ever does, we’d all denounce it as fucking disgusting). Meanwhile, how many feminists have been murdered by MRAs this year alone (with nothing but virtual high-fives from the manospherian masses)?

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
6 years ago

@Kirby

Who wants to bet they’re all the same idiot sockpuppeting it up?

Moocow
Moocow
6 years ago

@Scented Fucking Hard Chairs

I’ll definitely remember that for the next douchebag who tries to make the “well both sides have kinda done bad things so……” argument.

Slightly off-topic, but this is basically why I do not like TotalBiscuit one bit. He plays that card in order to defend GamerGate, pretending to act like some ‘neutral party’ when he very clearly is just making excuses for harassment of women in the game industry.

Misha
Misha
6 years ago

@kirbywarp, I vote anti-WHTM trolling conspiracy. It’s a last-ditch attempt to undermine the comment section through the power of sheer tedium. Which is a shame, I would much rather be undermined through the power of:

1. Concise, well-constructed, thoughtfully sourced arguments.

OR

2. Interpretive dance.

http://d3819ii77zvwic.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/interpretivedance.gif

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

@Scented Fucking Hard Chairs:

Who wants to bet they’re all the same idiot sockpuppeting it up?

I wouldn’t because the odds aren’t great, but it’d explain a lot if they were. Like how they always seem to have the same script:

1. “XYZ”
2. “What? I’m not saying Y, I’m just saying XyZ. Stop being so rude.”
3. “You’re purposefully misunderstanding me when I say Xyz. Fuck you, I’m not backing up my claims, google it yourself.”
4. “Apparently merely offering X is forbidden around here. You all are very rude and mean and wilfully misinterpreting me.”
5. Long side-track conversation about W until flounce

Thing is, that’s also a pretty normal defensive script… so I dunno. Could easily be different people. Then again, there have been quite a number of trolls recently. So, conspiracy?

Conspiracy.

Moocow
Moocow
6 years ago

@Kirbywrap

Yay! Conspiracy time! Lemme break out the newspaper, thumb tacks and red string!

Nameless Wonder
Nameless Wonder
6 years ago

@nameless wonder
How am I deflecting and trolling and all that other bullshit you think I’m doing?

Go read your own posts. “How am I doing this, how am I doing that,” ect. That is deflection, and it is bullshit.

People are taking time to type out telling you exactly how you are doing it, yet you are feigning to pretend that nothing you have actually said is questionable and/or wrong. For that reason I do believe you are an MRA troll, precisely because I don’t do bullshit.

You still didn’t answer my question about paying feminists 10$ an hour to babysit the Internet. And here I thought MRAs were champions of free speech, but oh right, only speech that is abusive to women and girls.