MGTOW: Best-Case Scenario
Worst-Case Scenario:
Even-Worster-Case Scenario:
Also, it goes without saying, the entirety of MGTOWforums.com, NiceGuy’s MGTOW Forum, Happy Bachelors Forum.
Note: If you actually watch any of these worster-case videos, please go back to the best-case scenario video to remind yourself that there is hope for our world.
EDITED TO ADD: The fellows at MGTOWforums.com have responded to my post yesterday about them. Enjoy.
… and I’m sorry for the triple-post (no edit button!), but I should probably *also* note that I don’t want to claim to have any actual right to decide that mohawk haircuts are Certified Racism-Free. If anyone could actually begin to judge that, it’d be a member of the culture an element of which is being appropiated there. I’m trying to argue that context is REALLY important when it comes to those things, especially when it’s a comparatively privileged group doing the appropiation, but that appropiation is not INHERENTLY the same thing a racism.
“who is the piece of shit who flagged my video?”
Ha ha ha ha ha ha 🙂
Oh the irony. You mean I can’t make hateful remarks about half of the human species without there being consequences? Why me no likey?
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
@Armageddon
“who is the piece of shit who flagged my video?”
Thanks for the shaming, btw. 😉
One of these things is not like the others.
I don’t have an intrinsic problem with someone simply wearing some item which is also part of another ethnic group’s traditional attire (it can definitely be problematic under some circumstances, to be clear, but I don’t have an intrinsic problem) but there’s a pretty important distinction between “wearing something from X culture” and “dressing up as a member of X culture.” When you treat “Native American” as being something comparable to “a gorilla” or “the red M&M” or “Superman” – just a silly costume you can put on for funsies – that is pretty damn racist and appropriative, in and of itself.
It’s my understanding — possibly imparted by racists — that the real (18th c.) tea party people dressed as Kanien’gehaga for symbolic rather than scapegoating reasons. The Flint People had a reputation for independence.
if what i said wasn’t true, why would yall get so upset? you have ZERO percent chance of ever stopping me from speaking the truth, ZERO.
I’m calling you a clueless asshole on purpose, if that’s what you mean.
This is technically true. Most people are against racism when it isn’t inconvenient and when it doesn’t prevent white people from doing things. When being against racism might prevent white people from doing something, then they’re generally not.
I noticed that. That was the stupid and racist thing you were trying to claim, it was not lost on me.
Like when the US government did not intend to hurt the Native Americans, just take them away from their homes and intentionally act to completely destroy their culture because it would save them from themselves?
Gosh, it’s almost as if I am saying this isn’t true, because it is appropriative of their culture.
Protip: Everyone is racist. In a very real way, everyone propagates bullshit that is actually and seriously harmful of another race (And I do not mean stupid shit that doesn’t actually hurt white people like ‘white people can’t jump’, I mean actually racist bullshit). Trying to say someone else isn’t ‘automatically racist’ is a giant red flag that you do not really understand racism in general, much less when you are doing it about appropriation.
How are the Japanese going to be meaningfully racist to a more dominant culture? Granted, football is a really, really global thing practiced a lot by much more marginalized countries and peoples than the USA, but…
Considering those same colonists were trying to kill them, it’s primarily irrelevant. That said, I also do not believe this is true without actual documentation. The colonists were trying to genocide the native peoples. I am aware that a perverse (In that it did basically nothing to actually help native people) ‘appreciation’ for native americans sprang up well before the current century’s half-assed fascination, but I am more than a little skeptical that it was held during the era where most people were even more active and urgent in genociding those same people.
Because you’re a dumbass saying hateful things.
Child, you have no idea how easy it is to get things removed on youtube, do you? That said, this is technically true; you are saying blazingly untrue things, so no matter what I do, I can’t stop you from speaking the truth… 😀 😀 😀
i’m a grown ass man who knows the real deal. yall just nitpick at things you don’t like and think you can keep stuff the way it is, you feminists are done. did anyone look at my video called “good women are the reason i joined MGTOW”? didn’t think so.
@Hesster —
“Traditions shared voluntarily != appropriated bullshit.” — seconding that, and applying it to the examples
“I used to live near Seattle, where there are shops owned by Native Americans that sell traditional art objects and handmade clothing to tourists. Is it racist to buy and wear them?”
Assuming the clothing and art in question is made by Native Americans (and they’re getting paid for that) I’d consider that intentionally sharing traditions.
“is it racist to shave your head in a mohawk?”
Potentially but not necessarily? That one was appropriated by punk culture before I was born, so it seems like trying to eradicate it would be a lost cause. I’m going with “reply hazy, try again later” on this one though.
“We went to war against the Japanese too. Is it racist to dress up as a ninja or samurai? How about wearing a kimono or reading manga?”
Manga is intentionally shared as a for sale commercial item, so no. Kimonos and samurai costumes are definitely caricatures of the parts of Japanese culture they represent though (samurai and geisha costumes are so removed from what samurais and geisha wore/wear that I don’t even feel right calling them the same thing) — likely the same for ninjas, but the standard ninja costume has no basis at all in reality, so idk, giving that another “reply hazy, ask again later”.
“I agree what the US did to the Native Americans was pretty damn shitty, and in some ways it’s still pretty damn shitty.”
I can’t think of any current policies that aren’t shitty, but at least forced sterilization is a thing of the (recent) past — I’m hoping that’s what you meant there, it was more evilly shitty and is now less evilly shitty, but still fully shitty (does that make sense outside my head?)
“But just putting on a headdress doesn’t make you a racist against the Native Americans any more than wearing a gi makes you a racist against the Japanese IMHO.”
That’s probably a winner for terrible analogies, in the tribes that wear headdresses, they’re a sign of honor, a status symbol, in all the cases I can think of only the chiefs wear a full headdress — so yeah, wearing one is incredibly racist. Versus wearing a gi while doing marital arts? The interest in marital arts could be rooted in racism, but wearing the appropriate attire of the sport isn’t. These are not the same thing.
“Someone who gets a mohawk haircut, dresses up as a chief for a costume party, or wears a Native American leather beadwork jacket because he thinks it looks cool isn’t automatically racist.”
I’ve addressed all three already, but I want to reiterate that there’s a world of difference between wearing clothing made by Native Americans in traditional styles and dressing up as a chief for a costume party. For one it’s a costume based on the most respected member of tribes, which are part of a marginalized community. For two it’s always, fucking always, collapsing all tribes and traditions into a single stereotype. Polliwog may’ve said this better than I can —
“When you treat “Native American” as being something comparable to “a gorilla” or “the red M&M” or “Superman” – just a silly costume you can put on for funsies – that is pretty damn racist and appropriative, in and of itself.”
And re: intent — if I trip and fall and land on your foot, you’re still just as injured as if I had intentionally stomped your foot, doesn’t matter that I had no intent to hurt you, same thing here.
@Rutee — Dvärghundspossen’s comparison of marital arts and soccer/football may not have been the best analogy but I think ze was getting at the idea that you wear the clothing of the sport, regardless the sport, when you do the sport. As I said above the reasons why you’re doing the sport can still be racist, but I don’t think the clothing inherently is — I think that’s all Dvärghundspossen was trying to get at (sorry Dvärghundspossen if I’ve read you wrong!)
“who is the piece of shit who flagged my video?”
better question — who removed your video? youtube, for violating their terms of service, deal with it or host elsewhere, welcome to the internet
@Rutee: some citation: http://www.boston-tea-party.org/mohawks.html
Appropriation of Native American imagery and culture was pretty common throughout early colonial and revolutionary history, especially among the revolutionaries. Ben Franklin was big on the whole ‘Noble Savage’ ideal, and in general revolutionaries seized on imagery that was pointedly American to contrast with the Europeans they were rebelling against. Native imagery filled that role quite a bit.
Re: Mohawks specifically, there are some mixed feelings, but a lot of people do find them to be racist and appropriative http://zinelibrary.info/files/dread.pdf http://marxistqueen.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/cultural-appropriation-continued/
The cultural meaning of things like beadwork varies. It’s best to avoid in general, esp. if it’s not a gift or purchase from a native american person who made it, and things which have important cultural or religious status as not being for people without certain family memberships, religious status, social status, rank, etc. are larger on the racism and appropriation scale than things without that degree of significance. However, any taking of cultural objects to appropriate at all from colonized people by colonizers should make one wary. And if you see it as “dressing up like a native american”, it’s certainly racist and appropriative.
“dresses up as a chief for a costume party,” Always racist, always very racist. The sole exception to this would be someone who is a member of the same tribe as the chief portrayed (or, at least, that’s an in-group discussion then).
I am also a bit unsure about the hairstyle being inherently racist, though i see it for mohawks a bit more than dreads just because dreads I don’t think can be solely claimed by one culture or race. It is something where there is a level of appropriation that can certainly be inappropriate and racist for sure.
Course I say this as a white woman with dreads so I have an obvious bias. It is something that I thought about before hand though, albeit coming from the privileged position it doesn’t mean much. For me the deciding factor was being unable to determine a precise culture it would be appropriating. Hairstyles are tricky in this way since it is a part of someone’s body; and sort of like tattoos or piercings that once for some cultures had greater religious significance or status, the dominate culture did manage to find meaning in the body modification.
But yes, any kind of dressing up “as a person from ____ real (especially disenfranchised) culture” as though it is fantasy costume or cosplay is racist. And a hairstyle can certainly be a part of that.
darksidecat, reading your second link I entirely agree that the name for the hairstyle “Mohawk” is entirely problematic given that it isn’t accurate and acknowledging that it is in no way related to a Native culture would be better for everyone. And it is also a problem when the modern style is inserted into depictions of the tribe. I wish it wasn’t such an ingrained name for the style culturally, as I doubt a new name would catch on. Punkhawk? Idk.
The f**k did I just watch?!
“The world is already shuddering, but not because a few white douchebags are threatening to take their balls and go home.”
Given what I’ve seen of MGTOW so far, I approve of their plan to keep their balls as far away from me as possible. Another continent would be nice – I hear Antarctica is lovely this time of year.
“I don’t see how a white person simply dressing up as a Native American is racist. I used to live near Seattle, where there are shops owned by Native Americans that sell traditional art objects and handmade clothing to tourists. Is it racist to buy and wear them? is it racist to shave your head in a mohawk? We went to war against the Japanese too. Is it racist to dress up as a ninja or samurai? How about wearing a kimono or reading manga?
Rutee already dealt with this bit of fuckery quite nicely, but I just have to point out – wearing a kimono and reading manga? Not actually the same kind of thing. Kimono = a form of traditional dress specific to a certain culture. Manga = an entertainment product, designed to be consumed. Now, if you’re defining reading manga as something that makes you totes Japanese, then yes, reading manga may well be a racist act if that’s how the reader is approaching it. But it’s not inherently racist any more than, say, listening to Britpop or eating Thai curry is.
And yes, dressing up as Generic Member Of Specific Race and/or Racial Trope (Native American chief, geisha, Chinese woman in cheongsam, etc) is racist. Many POC have written about this and how offensive they find it, especially people from the cultures that are most often appropriated and fetishised in that way.
Short version – don’t attempt to turn a race or a culture into a costume unless you want people to think you’re an ignorant racist buffoon.
Armageddon, dude, we’re not upset, we’re making fun of you. You go right on speaking. So will we.
i’m a grown ass man who knows the real deal.
Pretty sure no actually-grown man with an adult level of maturity would ever utter that sentence.
“did anyone
look atlisten to my video…”fixed that for you (and no one wants to listen to your videos, ever heard of podcasts?)
“if what i said wasn’t true, why would yall get so upset? you have ZERO percent chance of ever stopping me from speaking the truth, ZERO.”
We are upset because saying all women are stupid is hateful, bigoted, and WRONG. Speak your delusion of truth, I don’t care. But you have ZERO chance that I won’t call you out for the asshole that you are.
I thought it was fucked up when that one Spearhead commenter talked about removing baby girls’ voiceboxes to stop feminism.That was pretty upsetting.
But I guess that just means what he said was true. Such is Armageddon’s logic!
Is it just me, or is this always preceded by a bigoted rant from some privileged group about an oppressed one.
I have a feeling that this is a phrase that’s in frequent rotation for you
In one of your videos, you talk about how it’s pointless to argue how women online.
So why are you here? Follow your own advice and get out.
In one of your videos, you talk about how it’s pointless to argue with women and feminists online.
So why are you here? Follow your own advice and get out.