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men who should not ever be with women ever MGTOW misogyny oppressed men oppressed white men

Men Going Their Own Way: Best and Worst Case Scenarios

MGTOW: Best-Case Scenario

Worst-Case Scenario:

Even-Worster-Case Scenario:

Also, it goes without saying, the entirety of MGTOWforums.com, NiceGuy’s MGTOW Forum, Happy Bachelors Forum.

Note: If you actually watch any of these worster-case videos, please go back to the best-case scenario video to remind yourself that there is hope for our world.

EDITED TO ADD:  The fellows at MGTOWforums.com have responded to my post yesterday about them. Enjoy.

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Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
8 years ago

Oops, double post.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I’m starting to wonder if MGTOW have a very specific kink, and it’s for women telling them to get lost. Certainly it would explain why they keep wanking on about how they’re going their own way, yes they are, in the fact of constant “OK then, see ya” responses. Surely they must have noticed by now that women as a group are not upset about the idea of them avoiding us.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

In the face of, not fact. I can type, honest.

Fembot
Fembot
8 years ago

This is for Armageddon

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3phi2p/

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

Thanks Argenti. Well, I also think there’s a difference between Japanese and Native-Americans in that Japan is a big power globally speaking, economically and culturally, while Native-Americans are oppressed by the majority culture in the USA. So that’s one more difference which makes the comparision between gi and headress weird in my eyes.

But my basic point was that when you’re training or competing in a certain sport you wear the clothes of that sport. It would actually BE racist if a sensei were to state that “in my class, only asians can wear a gi, while caucasians must wear shorts and t-shirt” or something like that. If the sensei simply kicked out certain people because zie felt they weren’t taking martial arts seriously or didn’t respect the culture of martial arts, fine, but saying that white people couldn’t wear martial arts clothing while doing martial arts… would be racist IMO.

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

Besides, in Sweden, “mohawk hairstyle” is called “tuppkam”, which literally translate to “rooster’s crest”. So suppose a Swedish punkrocker has this hairdo, and actually doesn’t even know it’s called “mohawk” in English, but simply think of it as “rooster’s crest” and something that punks have. Would that make any difference?

Jessay (@jessay)
8 years ago

CALVAIRE!!! YES!

I wish MGTOW were like the first clip. They would be so much more pleasant.

Hahaha, lol at that first actual MRA video. Him saying that school is wicked easy but then makes up excuses for why he doesn’t do well. And then he says it’s harder to build a bridge than be a doctor?

WHAT IS THIS MAN? PLEASE GO! GO AND NEVER LOOK BACK! GOING MEANS TO KEEP US OUT YOUR MOUTH AS WELL BUDDY!

Dude sounds like a local and that scares me. Ughh. So many misogynists and racists and homophobes around here. I can imagine a guy like this trying to force a drink and obnoxious conversation on me at the bar and me being like, “Are you for real with the shit you’re spewing?” and then him thinking I’m the bad guy for wanting some respect.

Wetherby
Wetherby
8 years ago

I don’t know if any of you are familiar with the story of Casey Serin, but this legendarily unsuccessful entrepreneur launched a very similar island-based scheme back in 2009. Naturally, it came to nothing.

(Wikipedia biog here – scroll down to the section headed ‘Island Project’. Plus a more detailed timeline of his efforts here).

Wetherby
Wetherby
8 years ago

Curses – wrong thread, sorry!

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

“Besides, in Sweden, “mohawk hairstyle” is called “tuppkam”, which literally translate to “rooster’s crest”. So suppose a Swedish punkrocker has this hairdo, and actually doesn’t even know it’s called “mohawk” in English, but simply think of it as “rooster’s crest” and something that punks have. Would that make any difference?”

A non-appropriative name is exactly what darksidecat’s second link is requesting, so maybe? The style itself seems to be incredibly old (peat bog mummies old), found in non-Native American cultures, and not a traditional Kanien’gehaga (Mohawk) style — so naming it something generic like “rooster’s crest” seems like it would solve most of the issues. And it does kind of resemble a rooster’s crest. I really don’t know though, particularly outside the US were you’d need to consider the other cultures that have tradition styles actually resembling the “mohawk”.

I’m glad I read what you were saying right. Also, at least in the US (idk other country’s laws to comment) “… would be racist IMO” is legally the case, you’d probably have to prove actual harm occurred, so idk if it’d win in court, but yeah, it’d be racist (contra “please learn some respect before you return” wouldn’t be any sort of issue).

Jessay (@jessay)
8 years ago

Last night I was looking for MRA videos on YouTube because I am fascinated/horrified to see what they look like in real life. It really makes me angry they do this anonymously. I still have a big issue with that. They even set up fake Facebooks?! Insane.

But if they actually appeared on their videos it would mean that the men and women they call fat and ugly just for being feminists would be able to equally judge their looks. They can’t have that!

It’s a “sad state of affairs” that you have to find out about your partner’s sexual health? Are you sure you don’t mean, “good practice for all sexually active people”? Has this guy been having unprotected sex for years, just trusting that the women he’s with are “the right kind” of women and he has nothing to worry about? Maybe he should check up on his own health before too long.

It’s really scary how many people out there are like this though. I’ve been the person who had to say “Umm, condom?” several times and often I got, “What, you’re not on birth control?” I’m over here like, “AIDS, HAVE YOU HEARD OF IT?” I feel like it should be an automatic thing for a man who hasn’t specifically been tested and had their partner tested. I dunno. It’s hard to believe just how ignorant people are about their own sexual health. I just had to have a talk with my 23 year old cousin the other day about how herpes and hpv spread and whatnot. I don’t know how people DON’T actively seek out knowledge about what they’re doing.

Re Dude Who Is Shit In Bed: Have heteros not yet discovered the dental dam? I mean, I know I have TMI WARNING given my share of odes to the taste of pussy TMI WARNING CONCLUDED but if you’re really worried about stds from oral, dental dams and condoms are things that exist.

I find that some men are just ignorant to what good sex is. I think this is a result of any mixture of a few things.

1. Being generally inexperienced / only having been with inexperienced people who don’t know what they like yet
2. Learning how to have sex from porn (ughh)
3. Never having been directed or not listening to direction when it’s been given
4. Never having their technique criticized.
5. Just simply not caring about their partner’s pleasure and looking for a warm version of a blow up doll.

They’d have to actually take the initiative to research sex methods and whatnot to think of a dental damn, and actually care enough about the pleasure of their partner to want to do something as selfless as give her oral. It’s really a bummer that some people just want a hole to stick it in. I feel like they’re missing out, especially in the instance of casual sex, because they’re afraid to give too much or something so they wind up giving way too little. They just have boring, uninspired sex, and their partner leaves unfulfilled. So yeah, it can come off as kind of cold, but any time I’ve encountered such a man I make it my duty to give direction, and if he doesn’t listen, be like, “Uhh, that was not good.” I mean, someone’s gotta tell them. LOL oops. MISANDRY!

if what i said wasn’t true, why would yall get so upset? you have ZERO percent chance of ever stopping me from speaking the truth, ZERO.

I want you to go watch the movie American History X and then tell me that leaving up offensive, ignorant trash like your videos isn’t harmful. People who are hateful for no good reason are dying for someone to come along and justify their hatred. They won’t stop to examine that hatred, but they’ll say, “Hey, these guys agree with me, so I must be right!”

Though I would never consider you a powerful speaker like Edward Norton’s character in that film, it’s still dangerous to have people stating hate speech as if it was fact. And it’s against youtube’s terms of service… you know, that contract you agreed to upon signing up. So if you want to host this type of propaganda you’re probably gonna have to pay for your own host.

Raoul
Raoul
8 years ago

Jessay@jessay, presumably you know what these guys think: really being tender and caring to a woman in bed undermines one’s essential masculinity. In other words, heterosexuality, when freely engaged in, is actually gay.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Raoul — holy assumptions batman!

Premises:
1) “being tender and caring … undermines one’s essential masculinity”
1b) being tender and caring is effeminate
2) “…is actually gay”
2b) gays are effeminate

Seriously problematic issues here:
1) citation fucking needed on premise one, but even if we pretend that’s just a personal preference for being a jerk, you’ve still got —
2) you can only get from premise 1 to premise 2 by assuming both caring men and gay men are effeminate
3) “gays are effeminate” = homophobic assumption
4) men having sex with women makes them men having sex with men? o.O?
5) there’s a problem with men being effeminate? there’s a problem with assuming they are from one trait, eg caring or homosexuality, but there’s no general prohibition on effeminate men

4 there is going to make my head explode, to put this in generic logic terms, you’ve just said X = not-X — I prefer my paradoxes in my sci-fi >.<

pecunium
pecunium
8 years ago

Armageddon: if what i said wasn’t true, why would yall get so upset?

That’s precisely why, they aren’t true.

Raoul
Raoul
8 years ago

Argenti: you maybe remember the str8-porn-makes-you-gay controversy of 2009? I’m not saying anything really new here?

Raoul
Raoul
8 years ago

I should repunctuate that more declaratively: I’m not saying anything new here [period].

Hesster
Hesster
8 years ago

@ Rutee

Then I kindly invite you to piss right off. If you think it’s racist for any white person to dress like a Native American for any reason whatsoever, then you’re the type that sees a racist behind every fucking tree. While it’s true that everyone carries stereotypes about people from other races and cultures they should examine, not everyone is a cross burning, slur spouting, “I hate anyone who doesn’t look like me” racist. You can find racism in just about any innocent action if you look hard enough.

And if you think the government had no intent to eradicate the Indians’ culture or take their land, you’re pretty fucking clueless yourself, because that’s EXACTLY what they intended. They wanted to stick them on reservations so whites could take their land, and forceably assimilate their children so they would become like whites. Some people might have justified it as for their own good, but a justification was all it was. I never claimed it was right, so don’t go around making accusations on baseless assumptions about what you think I think.

Here’s a situation for you to think about. I have a friend who plays a Native American Shadowrun character. He’s planning on dressing up as the character for a big tabletop gaming convention later in the year. Should I tell him he shouldn’t cosplay his character because it’s racist? Or should he just dump the character he has played for years cause that’s racist too? Or is it OK because he’s Asian and not white?

Here’s something else for you to chew on: the dominant culture depends on where you live. The dominant culture in Japan is not western. How could it be when foreigners make up approximately 2% of the population, and westerners make up a tiny fraction of that? I know people that live there. Non-Japanese people are seen as second class citizens and face real discrimination, especially in finding housing and in the workplace. In general, Japan likes western culture, but they view foreigners (including westerners) as inferior, and they really don’t like Asians from other countries. Seeing as how you have such strong opinions on appropriating culture, does it bother you that they’re nuts about Christmas, baseball, American style weddings and have assimilated the Chinese written language?

http://www.debito.org/roguesgallery.html

felixBC
felixBC
8 years ago

I think Hesster’s aiming to fill a bingo card here. You’re just too sensitive! Calling someone a racist is a greater crime that actually being a racist! Clueless appropriation can’t be racist, because he’s not burning a cross and he’s really a nice person! Nice people can’t be racists! And a new entrant, Japanese can’t be racist because they don’t have enough other races around to be racist about! And doing an activity for years totally makes it not racist!

And again participation in an activity =/= appropriation (wearing a gi while doing marshal arts=participation, while wearing “native” gear to dress up as a character in a game=appropriation)

Ithiliana
8 years ago

@Hesster: see the problem is, you define racist as: , not everyone is a cross burning, slur spouting. That’s a Jim Crow racist.

Not everybody defines “racist” in that way, and more to the point, it’s quite likely that Jim Crow racism is less shown today (sociological research tends to show it, but I’m lazy today and can’t be bothered to cite).

However, there are *new* forms of racism that are being studied today: i.e. it’s not just that Jim Crow racism was (somewhat, mostly, largely?) eradicated, but it was replaced by unconscious or aversive racism.

here, read this.

If you really care about impacts of racisms, you’ll read and learn.

But I suspect you are a troll who just wants to throw a temper tantrum and declare that anybody identifying racism is OMGWORSETHANRACISTS!

In which case, kindly fuck the hell off.

Ithiliana
8 years ago

Also: as a white American, I’m not educated enough to talk about how racisms manifest in different cultures (or colorisms). In the work I do, I focus on USian forms of racisms which are different than those in other cultures (UK racisms are not like US racisms).

Racism: it’s not a simple concrete concept, and jumping up and down and yelling about your Japanese friend is not likely to get you many points in the debate.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

I bet Hesster thinks we’re living in a post-racial society, and she’s “colorblind.”

Ah, casual hipster racism, a treat for the whole family!

pecunium
pecunium
8 years ago

Hesster: I think I know what’s upsetting you.

DSC didn’t say you were a racist. DSC didn’t even say people who dress as Native Americans are racist (per se). DSC said that dressing in such a fashion is a racist thing to do.

All of us can do bigotted things. It doesn’t mean we are bigots. It doesn’t mean we did an intentionally bigotted thing.

The problem is (no matter what the bigottry is) most of us take it as a personal attack to be told that’s what happened. The trick is to not take is a blanket statement about the nature of the person being discussed, and examine it as a specific act/behavior.

Guy Noir
Guy Noir
8 years ago

Have you guys seen Johnny Depp as Tonto in the upcoming Lone Ranger?
http://nativeappropriations.blogspot.com/2012/03/johnny-depp-as-cultural-appropriation.html

Rutee Katreya
8 years ago

If you think it’s racist for any white person to dress like a Native American for any reason whatsoever

If you did it following their norms and at their behest, that’d definitely be different. I’m not sure on how following other cultures fashion trends counts, if that helps.

then you’re the type that sees a racist behind every fucking tree.

We’ve been over this. Every single human being spreads racist bullshit that causes actual harm. What’s your point, a “PC GONE MAAAAAAAAAAAAAD” thing?

not everyone is a cross burning, slur spouting, “I hate anyone who doesn’t look like me” racist.

No, no they aren’t. Most of them are ZOMG WE’RE NOT RACIST THATS SO AWFUL HOW DARE YOU” types who oppose any effort to actually do anything about racism. Like you.

And if you think the government had no intent to eradicate the Indians’ culture or take their land, you’re pretty fucking clueless yourself, because that’s EXACTLY what they intended.

Are you an idiot? That was the point.

Should I tell him he shouldn’t cosplay his character because it’s racist?

If his character dresses in stereotypical native american ways and continues stupid shit white people think native people do, then yeah, you should.

Or should he just dump the character he has played for years cause that’s racist too?

That may very well be even better, depending on execution. I can’t say for sure. He might just be a native american. He might continue stupid stereotypes.

Or is it OK because he’s Asian and not white?

Does “Everyone is racist and spreads stupid shit about marginalized groups” lost on you in some way? Does the concept elude you?

The dominant culture in Japan is not western

That’s highly debatable, considering the US military maintaining a base there and the adoption of a lot of western customs. WE’re talking about an imperial culture that imposes itself in a lot of places, you know.

How could it be when foreigners make up approximately 2% of the population, and westerners make up a tiny fraction of that?

….

Yeah, it’s not like dominant cultures can be imposed militarily, or through prestige…

In general, Japan likes western culture, but they view foreigners (including westerners) as inferior,

Yeah. And it still absorbs from the USA, because the USA is a dominant culture on the planet.

Non-Japanese people are seen as second class citizens and face real discrimination, especially in finding housing and in the workplace

Well, not white people. WHite people get a lot of extremely useful credit in Japan too, same as anywhere else. They’re idolized, and sociologists *in Japan* have studied the shifting of beauty standards to more closely mirror white people…

Seeing as how you have such strong opinions on appropriating culture, does it bother you that they’re nuts about Christmas, baseball, American style weddings and have assimilated the Chinese written language?

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
WHAT ABOUT THE WHITE PEOPLE YO? Copying from the dominant culture on the planet is not ‘appropriation’. The Chinese written language was taken when that was *China* for them. So no, not really, I don’t care about them taking from dominant peoples for them, I’m much more concerned with shit like their utterly racist and horrid handling of the Ainu, or Koreans seeking (and granted, in a lot of cases) immigration.

Rutee Katreya
8 years ago

Well, it’s more accurate to say that taking from the dominant culture isn’t harmful, and you can’t really hurt the dominant culture with it. IT’s taken as a curiosity or proof of superiority at best.

katz
8 years ago

Besides, in Sweden, “mohawk hairstyle” is called “tuppkam”, which literally translate to “rooster’s crest”.

Interesting; now I want to make that name catch on in America!

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
8 years ago

The RPG character thing basically comes down to how well-handled it is. We’re sat here on Insufficient Data To Judge. If it’s riddled with bullshit and stereotypes, then yeah, ‘s not the best of things. If it’s done well (and, hell, in Shadowrun I can see it being done to address racist shittyness that exists in our societies), then I have no problem with it.

(If you think I’m wrong, I’d be interested in arguments as to why- I’ve changed my mind on this sort of thing as a result in the past.)

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Raoul — perhaps I misread you and you were implying MRAs think that? It came off as you saying “this is how things actually are” not “this is what some people think” — I was arguing with the former, I’m sure some people do think that, they’re just wrong though (to a level of paradoxically wrong that makes my head hurt)

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Re: RPG characters, I’m going to agree with MorkaisChosen on this one as the only other option I see if having a 100% white cast of RP characters and that strikes me as worse than trying to tactfully handle minority characters…I’d not cosplay them though.

Guy Noir — yeah I have and omfgs wtf was he thinking? “I liked having stuff in my hair as Captain Jack so let me put all the random stuff in my hair”?! The budget that must have and no one thought to at least ask some Native Americans how they’d like to see the role handled? Or maybe cast a Native American?

Rutee — idk about Japan, but I had a friend quit teaching English in Korea early because she couldn’t take the mockery over cultural differences — things like wanting to wear a towel in the swimming pool’s dressing room. She had issues getting mental health coverage from her employer too, so I’m not sure how much it was racism that drove her back to the US early, but it is possible to be racist to USians outside the US. Celebrating Christmas doesn’t really get an entire nation a free pass on everything else…but you’re right, we invaded Japan, not Korea, so maybe this is irrelevant.

Point is just that there’s a difference between absorbing US culture and how people treat USians in the country, most people are more comfortable with things in theory than practice.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

if having 100% = is having 100% >.<

Crumbelievable
Crumbelievable
8 years ago

Of course Hesster is a fan of Debito Arudo…

Debito is an asshat. His whole shtick is concern trolling; he moves to Japan, becomes a Japanese citizen just so he can tell Japanese people “This is how terible you are and here`s what you need to change about yourselves”. I heard he`d recently moved back to America which is good news.

As a foreigner living in Japan (just moved here 2 months ago…have been here three times before for short stayss) I can confirm that there are some ways in which you sometimes feel alienated by Japanese people. But as a white person my experience is still way more positive than if I were any other kind of foreigner (black, Hispanic, or even Korean).

Rutee Katreya
8 years ago

Re: RPG characters, I’m going to agree with MorkaisChosen on this one as the only other option I see if having a 100% white cast of RP characters and that strikes me as worse than trying to tactfully handle minority characters…I’d not cosplay them though.

Not to belabor the point, but you can only have a cast of 100% white characters this way if you only have a player group that is 100% white, which seems a much bigger problem. But no, what I said was that if the character was stupidly handled then yeah actually, it’d be better to stop. I don’t know or really care to find out the exactly correct solution here, because we already know the answer Hesster is fishing for; carte blanche.

Rutee — idk about Japan, but I had a friend quit teaching English in Korea early because she couldn’t take the mockery over cultural differences — things like wanting to wear a towel in the swimming pool’s dressing room. She had issues getting mental health coverage from her employer too, so I’m not sure how much it was racism that drove her back to the US early,

IIRC we still have military presence in Korea and we didn’t entirely lose worldwide respect there. I’d be very surprised if white people didn’t still have pride of place as they do basically everywhere else. I’ve been surprised before though.

but it is possible to be racist to USians outside the US

You mean white people. It’s trivially true that one can be racist to US people, because around a quarter of the US populace is not white.

But as a white person my experience is still way more positive than if I were any other kind of foreigner (black, Hispanic, or even Korean).

I remember a black dude teaching English had a website for a while about his time there. There was some ‘fun’ fucked up shit in there. I doubt it’s entirely a bed of roses for anyone, but I know white people still get cut a lot of slack (That isn’t even cut to other Japanese people, f’rex)

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Rutee —

“Not to belabor the point, but you can only have a cast of 100% white characters this way if you only have a player group that is 100% white, which seems a much bigger problem.”

Eh, yes and no — you could always have non-white players playing white characters, but you’re correct that I have a set of white players (well, I’m of Native descent, but that’s kind of besides the point as I’m ST/DM) — that I’m having a hell of time getting 4 people to give me solid schedules is part of the problem, that and I have no non-white friends with an interest in vampire RPG. They’re also all men, though one’s written up a female character and she’s quite well done, he intends to tackle the woman in Victorian London issues. Basically though I just have a tiny set of people with any interest.

“IIRC we still have military presence in Korea and we didn’t entirely lose worldwide respect there. I’d be very surprised if white people didn’t still have pride of place as they do basically everywhere else. I’ve been surprised before though.”

I really don’t know how much it was that she’s a white USian, and how much it was the utter lack of respect for her need for mental health care (she’s bipolar, so that’s really not some “can’t you wait 6 months?” thing).

“You mean white people.”

Yes, I did, my apologies for not making that clear.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Is Hester actually trying to provide a perfect example of “does not understand how racism works”?

RE Japan – yes, it’s pretty damn prejudiced towards people who’re not ethnically Japanese with Japanese citizenship and the family registry to prove it. Mostly towards other Asian people. You want to talk about poor treatment of minority groups in Japan? OK, let’s start with acknowledging that what we’re seeing would be more appropriately described as xenophobia rather than racism, and move on from there to acknowledge that the primary victims are a. the native peoples of various Japanese islands (Ainu, Ryokan), b. the Burakumin, who are ethnically Japanese (probably, various historians still seem to disagree about this), but of a caste that in some ways approximates to the untouchables in India, and the victims of widespread and pervasive discrimination, and c. ethnic Koreans who really should have Japanese citizenship, but don’t, because as we already discussed, xenophobia.

White people in Japan want to talk about discrimination against them? Take a number, get in line, because there are a lot of other groups with significantly worse problems to be dealt with first. It’s just that white people in Japan often think that they’re being discriminated against in worse ways than anyone else because for many of them it’s the first time in their lives they’ve ever not been part of the culturally dominant group, and it’s a hell of a shock.

Also, even if people eating burgers and celebrating Christmas (kind of) in Japan was appropriation? That still wouldn’t make it OK for Americans to dress up as “Native American Chief, With Headdress” for costume parties.

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
8 years ago

(The other way to avoid Cast Of White People in RPGs is to play a green dude. Works better in some games than others, admittedly. 😉 )

lauralot89
8 years ago

@katz: Nonsense, he clearly has learned how to debate from the most mature and masculine of all men, Superman!

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

RE: Lauralot

I have that panel as my trans rage icon on LJ and the manboobz forum! 😀

I also really want the shirt.

lauralot89
8 years ago

My rage icon on LJ is a Red Lantern vomiting blood/energy. 🙂

The “I Am a Man” shirt is at the top of my list of “things I need to own someday. That and the Etsy shirt with Loki yelling “I DO WHAT I WANT, THOR!”

Geno X
Geno X
8 years ago

Seems a lot of people are intimidated my MGTOW. As a future expat, I know there are BILLIONS of women that LOVE men who blaze their own path. I cosign Armageddon,