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Does Manosphere Blogger Vox Day Really Support the Murder and Mutilation of Women?

Most women, it is fair to say, don’t want to be deprived of education; they don’t want to be considered little more than baby-making machines; and they don’t want “independent” women to be maimed or murdered.

But according to the influential manosphere blogger Vox Day, women who object to any of this just don’t know what’s good for them. In one of the most repellant manosphere rants I’ve run across yet, Vox attempts to rebut PZ Myers’ critiques of evolutionary psychology with a series of bizarre and hateful assertions about women, offering his own “scientific” rationales for keeping women down. Is this all somehow satire on his part? He certainly seems sincere.

TRIGGER WARNING for all that follows; Vox explicitly defends the maiming and murder of women.

Vox starts out by arguing that depriving women of education makes solid evolutionary sense:

[E]ducating women is strongly correlated with reducing their disposition and ability to reproduce themselves. Educating them tends to make them evolutionary dead ends. … 40% of German women with college degrees are childless. Does PZ seriously wish to claim that not reproducing is intrinsically beneficial to women?

Instead of being educated, Vox goes on to argue, girls should be married off young so they can start popping out babies:

[R]aising girls with the expectation that their purpose in life is to bear children allows them to pursue marriage at the age of their peak fertility, increase the wage rates of their prospective marital partners, and live in stable, low-crime, homogenous societies that are not demographically dying. It also grants them privileged status, as they alone are able to ensure the continued survival of the society and the species alike. Women are not needed in any profession or occupation except that of child-bearer and child-rearer, and even in the case of the latter, they are only superior, they are not absolutely required.

Next, he defends the practice of throwing acid in the face of “independent” women:

[F]emale independence is strongly correlated with a whole host of social ills. Using the utilitarian metric favored by most atheists, a few acid-burned faces is a small price to pay for lasting marriages, stable families, legitimate children, low levels of debt, strong currencies, affordable housing, homogenous populations, low levels of crime, and demographic stability. If PZ has turned against utilitarianism or the concept of the collective welfare trumping the interests of the individual, I should be fascinated to hear it.

He moves on to honor killings, arguing that they too are good for women, because

female promiscuity and divorce are strongly correlated with a whole host of social ills, from low birth and marriage rates to high levels of illegitimacy.

He offers a similar rationale for female genital mutilation, before launching into this bizarre racist attack on abortion rights:

[F]ar more women are aborted than die as a result of their pregnancies going awry. The very idea that letting a few women die is worse than killing literally millions of unborn women shows that PZ not only isn’t thinking like a scientist, he’s quite clearly not thinking rationally at all. If PZ is going to be intellectually consistent here, then he should be quite willing to support the abortion of all black fetuses, since blacks disproportionately commit murder and 17x more people could be saved by aborting black fetuses than permitting the use of abortion to save the life of a mother. 466 American women die in pregnancy every year whereas 8,012 people died at the hands of black murderers in 2010.

Vox wants “girls” – presumably teenagers — to be married off young and start popping out babies. Yet in his mind female fetuses are “unborn women.”

Despite Vox Day’s repellent ideas about women – and his proud racism – he’s an influential figure in the manosphere, mentioned approvingly and regularly cited by others who present themselves as more moderate voices. It may not be a shock that the reactionary antifeminist blogger Dalrock includes Vox in his blogroll, and cites his work with approval (see here and here for examples). But, astoundingly, he’s also regularly cited approvingly by antifeminist “relationship expert” Susan Walsh of Hooking Up Smart (see here, here, and here). And she has even written at least one guest post on Vox’s “game blog” Alpha Game.

At this point I suppose I shouldn’t be shocked by any of this.  But I still am.

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pecunium
pecunium
9 years ago

Aurini: Now that I’m back from the more important task of coffee and a chocolate croissant; and before I make some cinnamon spiced chicken biryani, we look at the rest of your folderol.

Perhaps you could provide some examples of University educated women who A) Make a net contribution to society (if their husbands repay the loans, then they’re a net drain) who are engaged in a productive endeavour – government work doesn’t count, and B) who wind up having children at some point at a replacement rate.

Gov’t work doesn’t count as a net contribution to society. I’ll be sure to tell that to Colin Powell and George Washington.

Having children at a replacement rate isn’t a problem. If you hadn’t noticed there are a lot more people on the planet than there were when you were born. There are a lot more people in the US, and we have immigration quotas, so while it’s true that The number of immigrants living in the United States has more than tripled since 1970, from 9.6 million to 28.4 million. As a percentage of the U.S. population, immigrants have more than doubled, from 4.7 percent in 1970 to 10.4 percent in 2000. , it’s also true that there were 78,119,877 more people in the US at the end of those thirty years. The decennial increase in 1970 was 13.4 percent, in 2000 it was 13.1 percent.†

The replacement rate is… 2.1 per woman in a country with decent healthcare (the US is a bit behind the middle of the pack for that, we are probably at about a 2.3). That’s lifetime, not per annum.

So we are doing just fine on the “replacement rate”, not that we’d be doing poorly if we were in a population decline, since we aren’t hurting for total numbers, and certainly aren’t in a genetic bottleneck.

So the second half of your little screed is meaniningless, as the first premise (that we need women to have more children to maintain our present population) is false, and the implicit second premise (that maintaining our present population is essential) is unproven, and probably false.

†I love the US Census in discussions like this, so much data ready to hand. Of course it was compiled by the Gov’t. so all the women who took part were failing to be a net value to society.

pecunium
pecunium
9 years ago

Argenti: I know satire isn’t the same as a joke, but lots of internet types seem to think that calling something satire means it’s unassailable as a form.

In the same way someone who make a, “joke” thinks that protects them from being called out for being a douchenozzle.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
9 years ago

“This is about 100% more “A Modest Proposal” than the S.C.U.M. Manifesto ever was.”

Who called that Solanas was going to come up? +1 internet to you!

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

@Quackers, I still haven’t seen the Avengers but I plan to next week. I look forward to all of the fanservice. 🙂

The MRA’s are complaining about what movies might show before they even watch them? Hahahaha! Seriously, if you can’t be assed to watch a superhero movie before complaining about misandry, then it’s time to tone down your persecution complex a bit.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
9 years ago

Pecunium — “…but lots of internet types seem to think that calling something satire means it’s unassailable as a form.” — well yes, but I wanted to note that it’s failing on the basic premise of satire. And I want your lunch? it sounds delicious! I can trade you for country peach flavored tea with hazelnut creamer, not as filling as that chicken, but yummy.

ozymandias42
9 years ago

Aurini: Your statement, by implying that real men don’t experience trauma, is directly contributing to the underdiagnosis of mental illness among men, the tendency of men to not seek or receive the help they need, and thus to the high rate of substance abuse and completed suicide among men. STFU, you misandrist.

Argenti: I mean, it might have been a private Christian school, in which case that shit’s totally legal. My girlfriend’s ex went to a school like that.

Sharculese
9 years ago

@pecunium

Having children at a replacement rate isn’t a problem.

yeah, but he’s only interested in white children, so that changes things a little

ozymandias42
9 years ago

Further thoughts on Aurini!

I am amused to discover that a social worker who can’t pay back their loans is a net drain on society, despite doing a thankless and incredibly important task, while a banker who destroys the US economy but can pay back his student loans isn’t.

Furthermore, I DO understand that it’s supposed to be satire. The satirical point is “if you are a utilitarian like Myers you have to support all these things Myers and I don’t support, because they lead to greater utility.” BUT if they don’t actually lead to greater utility, the satire falls apart on the face of it. It’s like a Modest Proposal satirizing a group of people who care deeply about poor Irish children and fund their schooling, housing, and food.

pecunium
pecunium
9 years ago

Sharculese: yeah, but he’s only interested in white children, so that changes things a little

Oh….! Is that what he meant? Silly me. the world needs more white children. Mars needs women, and shit like that.

🙂

pecunium
pecunium
9 years ago

Argenti: it’s supper. Biryani (even a half assed one like this), isn’t a “toss it together” sort of thing.

Breakfast was a cheese and speck omellete, and lunch was the aforementioned coffee and croissant.

WordSpinner
WordSpinner
9 years ago

Like ozymandias (and others) said, even if Vox Day was trying to say “huh huh utilitarianism is bs” through a satire of the consequences of utilitarianism it still doesn’t work unless you accept his premises that (a) women’s happiness doesn’t count in a utilitarian scheme and (b) female autonomy leads to unpleasant societies. Those premises are both false, and reveal a lot more about Vox Day than they do PZ or any manboobz commenter.

Anyway, because he believes premises (a) and (b) and gives no indication (either in this piece or his previous writing) that he would disagree with, say acid attacks, this piece also fails as satire on that level. After all, “A Modest Proposal” doesn’t work if you think that Swift actually does believe in eating Irish babies.

bekabot
bekabot
9 years ago

You know, I really am a utilitarian. I am the real thing. And, speaking as a utilitarian who is the real thing, I’m going to observe that those who think that Vox Day is in favor of making women into “babymaking machines” are being way too charitable to Vox. That may be what he thinks he’s in favor of, but it’s not so. Machines take time and effort to build and maintain, and not even the goofiest technician would suggest that the way to keep a machine in good working order was to throw acid at it or that the way to keep a bank of machines in good working order was to periodically destroy one of them as an example to the others. Nope. People who build machines and keep them running value their machines to a far greater extent than Vox Day suggests that people in general ought to value women. Notice: I’m not taking on the question of whether he’s right or wrong. I’m just trying to clarify what his postion actually is (since he hasn’t taken the trouble to do that himself).

(Maybe “Vox Day is joking” is the true interpretation of his screed, but if so, any societal recommendation he makes during the course of said screed have to be taken as valueless other than for laughs. Since I myself was not amused, I’m accepting his words at face value.)

ostara321
ostara321
9 years ago

Make a net contribution to society

I am so sick of this garbage attitude of if you’re not the next Marie Curie, you’re nothin’ being bandied about at women (if in fact, any of these jokers has the decency to acknowledge the contributions she and other lady scientists have made). Seriously, what the actual fuck are you doing Aurini that makes you so goddamn special? What the actual fuck are you or the MRAs contributing to society besides a bunch of hateful bullshit that amounts to little more than a big internet whine?

And this may surprise you, but here’s the real difference between me and you bucko. It isn’t that I’m working on some fiction I hope one day will be a nice contribution, it isn’t my “worthless degrees” (plural, thanks) or whether you’re the inventor of sliced bread – the difference? I’m not enough of an asshole to say that just because you are an asshole who seemingly does nothing but pump more hurt into the world that you do not have the right to live your life on your own terms (excluding the obvious, like harming others).I really don’t care if you never do anything more than post ridiculous bullshit on the internet or if you go on to invent a safe teleportation device. Either way, I won’t presume to say you should or shouldn’t be educated, that your worth is tied up with your ability to look young and arbitrarily “hot”, or your ability to reproduce. And it isn’t because you’re a dude and are destined to make awesome shit happen by virtue of your dudeness. It’s because you’re a human being and I’m not an asshole who thinks I should be able to tell other human beings what to do with their lives.

Dan
Dan
9 years ago

You would first need to consider what Meyers was trying to demonstrate, that religion harms humanity. Then consider what Day was trying to demonstrate, that Meyers attacks religion not with a scientific approach but with an emotional and sentimental approach. From a strictly scientific point of view, acid thrown in the faces of some women isn’t scientific proof that religion harms humanity as a whole. Meyers is making an appeal to emotion, which was clearly effective judging by the slew of emotional comments here. Day is absolutely successful in demonstrating what he meant to demonstrate. If readers were a little more dispassionate they would recognize that.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
9 years ago

ozy — yeah my inability to read negates my outrage (hence mocking myself)

Pecunium — the biryani still sounds delicious, and, indeed, like too much work for my depressed ass (I should probably wash a fork so I can make dehydrated chicken and rice, it won’t be nearly as good) — Mars does need women though! If we’re going to colonize the place we could at least not be misogynists about it. You meant that like a fish needs a bicycle, I know, but I’d go to Mars (I figure the first colony will basically risk becoming a suicide mission, so they’re going to need some crazy for that to work).

Discordia
Discordia
9 years ago

yeah female dominated jobs are so worthless lets see:

Teachers(nope don’t need any of those)
Nurses(completely useless, no one ever gets sick or injured)
Dentel Hygenists(no one ever needs their teeth cleaned)
Social Workers/consolurs (helping people is always wrong!)
Secretarys(they do nothing but eat bon bons all day! They don’t keep office life running smootly)
not to mention pretty much every job out there keeps society affloat and running…..I am really getting sick of this unless your an inventor or coal miner you are basically a leech off of society!

Also cool it with the it’s satire…and just own up to your hateful views…it is really pathetic and an insult to actual satire

ostara321
ostara321
9 years ago

I also love the implication that no matter what work a dude does, it’s super duper important work. If a dude cleans up shit it’s all, well, we need someone to clean the toilets and what a good job he does and good for him being all bootstrappy! But if a woman is someone who does a lot of the very unglamorous, behind the scenes shit office work, she’s worthless. No double standards there at all.

katz
9 years ago

Ever been in an office on a day when the secretary is gone? It’s absolute chaos.

creativewritingstudent
creativewritingstudent
9 years ago

I would like to see these anti-government types put their money where their mouths are and live without ANY government assistance. I bet they’d cave when they’re up to their ankles in poo, or their car fell down a pothole, or they run out of candles, or…

Lets face it, without government, we wouldn’t have money which powers that free market they love so much.

Don’t knock government or its workers too much.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

Exactly, Discordia. Even men working in coal mines depend upon the services from not only other men, but also the services of women. If any of those coal miners and plumbers are also fathers, they more than likely depend upon a wife, girlfriend, mom, or female childcare worker to take care of their children so that they are able to work. I know there are some stay at home dads and some men working in daycares, but the majority of childcare is still done by women. It wouldn’t be possible for those men to what they did if they had to bring babies to work every day.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
9 years ago

“I am really getting sick of this unless your an inventor or coal miner you are basically a leech off of society!”

Except even if they are coal miners…”Secretarys(they do nothing but eat bon bons all day! They don’t keep office life running smootly)”…mail the damned bills to customers and the like!

My last job was at a law firm, 3 male lawyers and an all female support staff (4-5) — if male lawyers are so competent and useful, why do they need >1 woman each to run a law firm? (Um, in practice, because the office manager was a terrible human being who made that office a miserable place to work, without her they probably could have a 1:1 ratio)

Amused
9 years ago

I also love the implication that no matter what work a dude does, it’s super duper important work. If a dude cleans up shit it’s all, well, we need someone to clean the toilets and what a good job he does and good for him being all bootstrappy! But if a woman is someone who does a lot of the very unglamorous, behind the scenes shit office work, she’s worthless. No double standards there at all.

I don’t think MRA’s are even implying that. Their belief seems to be that men don’t have to prove that they provide a net gain, because they are the default sex, and civilization belongs to them, and exists for them to consume. Women, by contrast, are mere guests or interlopers, who must justify their existence by providing sexytimes, serving as incubators and making sammiches. Thus, any woman who cannot conclusively prove that the world would absolutely collapse in her absence is a leech who deserves to have acid thrown in her face.

ozymandias42
9 years ago

Dan: …But throwing acid on women’s faces DOES cause a decrease in utility, and hence is harmful. Uh, duh?

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

I would like to see these anti-government types put their money where their mouths are and live without ANY government assistance. I bet they’d cave when they’re up to their ankles in poo, or their car fell down a pothole, or they run out of candles, or…

I don’t think those anti-government people realize how vulnerable they are in life, and how they could end up needing help from others at any time. Even someone who has their finances and life in perfect order can end up needing a hand up after becoming injured or sick. If someone lives long enough, they will also become elderly and need benefits and medical care, just as they provide it for others while they are still young and abled.

Many of those same people benefited from a public education, too. It makes me sick when they turn around and attack the public schools that made their own success possible. I guess it’s an attitude of “Fuck you, Jack, I got mine”. They also benefit from the contributions made to society from other people who were also educated in public schools.

Most people would need at least some kind of government help during and after a natural disaster, too, no matter how well insured they are. Without the city, state, and federal government, Joplin wouldn’t be where it is today. Look at how much the National Guard did to rescue people and maintain order in the immediate aftermath. Look at how much FEMA helped uninsured and underinsured people get back on their feet. Private charities and individuals have done a lot, but they can’t do everything. No matter where someone lives, there is a possibility of some type of disaster, like a flood, hurricane, earthquake, or wild fire. It’s wrong to think “That will never happen to me” because nobody knows that for sure.

ostara321
ostara321
9 years ago

Amused, yeah, that’s probably more accurate. And even more depressing. Fuck.

Kendra,

Many of those same people benefited from a public education, too. It makes me sick when they turn around and attack the public schools that made their own success possible.

Yeah, I think my favorite (both in terms of hilarity, because OMG clueless, but also in terms of OMG you are an asshole) is this one from Glenn Beck http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/23/stewart-to-glenn-beck-you_n_472826.html. He talks about how he didn’t have to finish college, he got his “college education” for “free” from the public library because according to him, “books are free!”

Makes my librarian head explode. Dude who tries to sell his shit books to shmucks claiming books are free? No cognitive dissonance there. No siree. I was half tempted to say we ought to stop buying his books on principle, but won’t because, info to the public, etc. Also, our staff got a pretty good kick out of making fun of some of the passages in his ridiculous books.

But even to people who don’t care about books (and don’t get me started on the “you can find whatever you want yourself on the internet these days”, people) like, if all you care about is your own ass, if you are unlucky enough to be in a natural disaster in a place where no government assistance exists, you are very probably fucked.

Shaenon
9 years ago

And yes, it was satire; he was demonstrating how easy it is to defend Islam, he wasn’t advocating it. I doubt he wants a society where women have acid thrown in their faces, he was just explaining the rationalization behind it. Perhaps you could provide some examples of University educated women who A) Make a net contribution to society (if their husbands repay the loans, then they’re a net drain) who are engaged in a productive endeavour – government work doesn’t count, and B) who wind up having children at some point at a replacement rate.

Wait…you’re saying it’s satire, but it’s also true? You realize you have to pick one or the other, right?

Anyway, I have a college degree, paid off my own loans, and bring the world joy by making wonderful comics. Please list 99 useless women.

pecunium
pecunium
9 years ago

bekabot: I don’t think he means machines. He means slaves. The thing about a machine isn’t that it needs to be maintained lest it fall apart, it’s that you can’t replace it trivially.

It’s not that I think pregnancy/rearing children is trivial, it’s that VD does. It’s the mindset of the chattel-slaveowner. All you need is to have the slaves fuck, and “boom” more slaves.

So throwing acid in the face of one slave, “pour encourager les autres is just good business, the same way that beating one, even unto death, was good business.

Because one doesn’t need to go out and pay money to get a new one. If things like prenatal care and time in the maternity ward aren’t issues, then it’s not all that much outlay to get more slaves.

pecunium
pecunium
9 years ago

Dan Meyers is making an appeal to emotion, which was clearly effective judging by the slew of emotional comments here. Day is absolutely successful in demonstrating what he meant to demonstrate. If readers were a little more dispassionate they would recognize that.

False.

1: We aren’t defending Myers, we are attacking VD.

Why? Because, as so many have said, his satire fails to be satire.

2: His “demonstration” of what proves his point? When it’s so strained that a number of intelligent people completely failed to see it, then it wasn’t well made, even if we assume, arguendo that you are correct in your summation of his purpose (which assumes facts not in evidence).

What I see is that making a stupid argument gets you blasted? It’s not as if the people condemning him here are all atheists, fans of Myers (some weren’t, so it seems, aware of who he is when they addressed VD’s piece).

The idea (as that weak-tea assertion in the HuffPo Op-Ed claimed) that one needs to use, “science” to rebut religion, just because one is a scientist, is nonsense. Religion isn’t science. It’s emotion. It’s any number of emotional things, from a sense of the numinous, to a fear of one’s inner self being a monster, to a framework for the way an incomprehensible world works, to a set of ethics based on the teachings of people who believed one of those things, to a social life that one acquires from one’s parents/culture.

That some third party says PZ Myers needs to use his model of “science” (which has some question begging premises in it’s underpinnings) and thus VD gets to say Myers is therefore required to admit that he thinks tossing acid in the face of women is a net benefit to society is arrant nonsense.

And that’s a dispassionate response. Not emotionally vacant, because that’s impossible, but it’s looking at the actual facts, and using my judgement, colored by experience, to come to a logical (that is one ordered and reasoned; not one which is, “right, and pure of emotion”) conclusion.

The greatest failure in VD’s argument is that he defines women as non-people. That’s the only way depriving them of agency, and torturing them if they get out of line = net gain in happiness for humanity.

If (and it’s an impossible if) he could get around that, he would have half an argument in support of his claims against utilitarianism. But he can’t, because if he does that, the rest of that piece evaporates.

A dispassionate look at it, rather than an emotional response to the idea that we are beig mean/unfair to VD, would make that pretty plain.

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
9 years ago

Anyway, I have a college degree, paid off my own loans, and bring the world joy by making wonderful comics.

‘Strue. The whole time-travel-CYOA-life bit going on at the moment’s great, and the magnitude of the D’AWWWWWWWWWWW at the end of Narbonic (and when they turn up again in Skin Horse!) is a sight to behold.

… Carry on, I’m just gonna sit here fanboying.

Shaenon
9 years ago

Deborah was a Catholic girl, she made no net contribution to society.
Carla was a differnet type, she made no net contribution to society.
Mary was a black girl and she made no net contribution to society.
Susan painted pictures sitting down and made no net contribution to society.

Reno was an aimless girl, she made no net contribution to society.
Cathy was a Jesus freak, she made no net contribution to society.
Vicky had a special way of making no net contribution to society.
Camala who couldn’t sing, kept the beat made no net contribution to society.

Zilla was an archetype, the voodoo queen who made no net contribution to society.
Joan thought men were second best to making no net contribution to society.
Sheri was a feminist, she made no net contribution to society.
Kathleen’s point of view was this, “Make no net contribution to society.”

Seattle was another girl who made no net contribution to society.
Karen liked to tie me up and she made no net contribution to society.
Jeanie had this nightclub walk that made no net contribution to society.
Mary Ellen who had a son said, “I must go,” but made no net contribution to society.

Gloria, the last taboo was shattered by making no net contribution to society.
Meme brought the taboo back and made no net contribution to society.
Marilyn who knew no shame, was never ever satifisied.
Julie came and went so fast, she made no net contribution to society.

Well, Rhonda had a house in Venice, she made no net contribution to society.
Patty had a house in Houston, she made no net contribution to society.
Linda thought her life was empty, made no net contribution to society.
Catherine was much too pretty, she made no net contribution to society.
Uh uh, not Catherine.

Pauline thought love was simple, she made no net contribution to society.
Jean-Marie was complicated, she made no net contribution to society.
Jeanna was the perfect lady, she made no net contribution to society.
Jackie was a rich punk rocker, she made no net contribution to society.

Sarah was a modern dancer, she made no net contribution to society.
Janet wrote bad poetry, she made no net contribution to society.
Tonya, Turkish, liked to fuck and made no net contribution to society.
Brenda’s strange obsession was to make no net contribution to society.

Rowena was an artist’s daughter, she made no net contribution to society.
Dee Dee’s mother left her father, she made no net contribution to society.
Debby Ray had no such problems, she made no net contribution to society.
Nina sixteen, had a baby, left her parents, made no net contribution to society.
Bobbie joined a New Wave band and made no net contribution to society.
Eloise who played guitar made no net contribution to society.
Terry didn’t give a shit, she made no net contribution to society.
Robin was much more my style, she made no net contribution to society.
Jezabel went forty days making no net contribution to society.
Dinah drove her Chevorlet into the San Francisco Bay, having made no net contribution to society.
Judy came from Ohio,she made no net contribution to society.
Amaranda, here’s a kiss, I chose you to end this list.

Even though you made no net contribution to society.

Amused
9 years ago

Pecunium: I think what Dan means is that, in order to be “dispassionate” in your argument, you may not consider suffering as a factor. Thus, to say that throwing acid in women’s faces is bad because it’s painful and can cause blindness and disfigurement is an invalid argument in his opinion, because it’s “emotional”. In other words he’s justifying such acts in a roundabout way by suggesting that their effect of people’s health and mental well-being is to be ignored.

Funny how I’ve never seen MRA’s — who are the biggest drama queens ever — apply that “logic” to their own perceived hurts.

Fembot
Fembot
9 years ago

@Shaenon

All those wimminz are gold digging whores! They’re either stay at home wives leeching of teh mens, or they’re working women stealing jobs from teh mens and buying scented candles! Either way, they’re whores.

Kendra, the bionic mommy
Kendra, the bionic mommy
9 years ago

like, if all you care about is your own ass, if you are unlucky enough to be in a natural disaster in a place where no government assistance exists, you are very probably fucked.

Exactly, it would have been impossible for us private citizens in Joplin to do it all on our own. We could not remove several million cubic tons of debris last year. That job was led by FEMA and the Army Corps of Engineers. Police officers, firefighters, and EMT workers helped dig people out and get them to hospitals or the public shelters. The Red Cross helped run the shelter, but the public university provided the space.

The National Guard defended peoples’ properties from looters, city officials gave seminars on how to find reputable contractors (very helpful, btw!), the public schools offered an extended summer school session to help stressed out parents like me have more time for dealing with insurance and construction stuff, etc. Right now I still need to contact the EPA for them to test the soil on my land to make sure it’s not contaminated with lead from the debris. I don’t have a clue how to test for lead or how to clean soil. There is a lot to recovering from a disaster, and the government is big enough and organized enough to make it possible.

I also LOL’ed at Glenn Beck bragging about using the library, but bashing government services. He is such a dumbass.

Sharculese
9 years ago

@dan

From a strictly scientific point of view, acid thrown in the faces of some women isn’t scientific proof that religion harms humanity as a whole.

no no no no no, kid, you don’t seem to have understood the conversation. (or your parroting vd’s failure to understand the conversation). meyer’s challenged defeneders of religion to show how throwing acid in people’s faces helped society (not being a twisted little child who want to respond to people who disagree with him with terroristic violence, meyers is operating under the assumption that this is a bad thing. is this part controversial to you, snowflake?)

vox day, of course, got his hackles in a rage because someone said something he didnt like about religion, and decided to take up the gauntlet and say yes, there are benefits to terrorism against women flowing from the fact that women are stupid worthless whores (this is of course, a terribly scientific assessment and not something that should get him laughed out of the room)

now we have an army of dudes who are even dimmer than he is showing up to huff and puff about how we didnt engage seriously with his non sequitur and instead pointing out that he sounds like an angry, hateful creep.

are you caught up now, son. do you need me to go slower.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
9 years ago

“I think what Dan means is that, in order to be “dispassionate” in your argument, you may not consider suffering as a factor.”

Except wasn’t VD’s point, if satirical, to show that utilitarianism “logically leads to” everything in that post? When in reality utilitarianism is about maximizing pleasure/happiness, which, since pleasure is the inverse of suffering, means minimizing suffering/harm?

You may well be right, but Dan’s still failing logic (and so is VD).

“It’s not as if the people condemning him here are all atheists, fans of Myers (some weren’t, so it seems, aware of who he is when they addressed VD’s piece).”

While basically an atheist, I had no fucking clue who Myers was before yesterday (I live under a rock, I know).

cloudiah
9 years ago

@katz You channeled some Chadler/Cain there. (I assume that was you.) Nicely done.

cloudiah
9 years ago

p.s. I knew VD’s minions would show up, yay!
p.p.s. Why are you all so damn funny? This is why I am addicted to this blog!

ozymandias42
ozymandias42
9 years ago

My mom’s a journalist who ran two magazines simultaneously and is currently supporting my dad. Please tell us about another 99 useless women.

pecunium
pecunium
9 years ago

Amused: Pecunium: I think what Dan means is that, in order to be “dispassionate” in your argument, you may not consider suffering as a factor.

Really? If he is that’s foolish, since the core of the argument is the suffering of those who are splashed with acid/maimed/killed is less than the benefits that accrue from inflicting such harms on them.

Which is what I said was only possible if one says women’s suffering is equal to less (say 3/5ths) than a man’s suffering; since they make up half the population (more or less) and this decreases the happiness of all of them.

Sharculese
9 years ago

my mom is a government scientist whose specialty is reproductive health, but that’s really awesome so what the fuck ever, aurini’s narrative is dumb and bullshit

also she’s got over half a decade of higher education under her belt and she paid for all of it herself

pecunium
pecunium
9 years ago

For those who want to see a positive good to he world:

Quick and dirty biryani:

Some cooked chicken, preferably from the night before.
Rice: Jasmine, or parboiled (e.g. Uncle Ben’s Converted)
Spice mix (crucial, cinnamon, Cumin, clove: I eyeballed those at a 3:2:1 ratio, and added turmeric, mace, powdered ginger. Mix those.
Some pulverised some cubeb, or black pepper; reserved.
Charnuska/Nigell/black cumin (synonyms)
Carrots, asparagus, peas, onions (I used baby leeks, whole), mushrooms, other vegetables as you see fit, cut smallish.
Some chicken stock (if you are suing thigh quarters, you can strip the meat from the bones,and add them, some mushrooms, and the skin, to enrich the stock.

Make the rice, set it to cool. Add enough charnuska to give it a pleasantly speckled appearance.

Set the stock to warm, with the spices; and any flavor enirchments.

Mix the rice, and the veggies (blanched if so desired, see below), I placed the leeks in the bottom of a casserole, and then the rice/vegetables on top.

Shred the chicken.

Strain any enriching materials from the stock, after about 20 minutes on a simmer, and heat the chicken in it. After about 40 minutes remove the meat, and place it in the rice/vegetable mixture, putting the entirety into a low (150-170) oven. Cook for 30 minutes, at a minimum (this is where blancing the larger/harder vegetables, such as leeks/asparagus stalks, is useful).

If you plan to cook the vegetables in the oven, cover, and let it rest for an hour, to an hour and a half.

Serve with naan, papadum, and drink of choice.

pecunium
pecunium
9 years ago

My former housemate is a attorney who also has a Doctor of Divinity. She got no gov’t assistance, and paid all her own loans off. She isn’t dependent of any man, being possessed of a job (she is no longer working in a ministerial capacity, though she did, for about a decade).

She does not now, nor has she ever, worked for any gov’t agency (though she is a licensed notary).

I expect my list of 99 worthless women to counterbalance her.

Discordia
Discordia
9 years ago

Kendra and Ostara–yep houses get cleaned and kids take care of themselves too!
Katz and Argenti Aertheri–yeah it’s amazing how the people that keep things running and keep things organized are pretty much invisable!

Ozy—yeah, I am really beginning to think MRAs and their ilk really need to learn being human 101 mutalating women so they become

katz
9 years ago

I’d be fascinated to know how a utilitarian is supposed to disregard human suffering.

darksidecat
9 years ago

Dvar is correct about utility monster definition, I did screw up it. I’m with blackbloc on the rest though.

On another note, I am a statist, but I don’t think it’s exactly fair to ask why anarchists have to navigate state systems when we have a system that de facto mandate them. This is similar to the annoying jokes about communists/socialists and wages/money while they live in a capitalism.

Libertarians, by and far the vast majority of them, don’t actually want no government. They want a government that functions only in ways that protect and benefit them and other privileged upper class people. They are rightwing fascist douchebag liars (there are a few exceptions who use the label who aren’t, but mainstream paulite bullshit libertarians are totally).

pecunium
pecunium
9 years ago

Oh yeah, my partner, she has a degree from Columbia, which she got at the same time she was attending JTS (they have a dual program). She paid her loans off herself, while supporting her other partner’s acquisition of a PhD. in Computer science.

She is worth at least 99 women.

So cough it up, 198 women, by name a description, who are, “worthless”, to counterbalance the both of them.

katz
9 years ago

To be fair to libertarians, most of them just don’t think about it very hard.

cloudiah
9 years ago

Never took out student loans for undergrad or graduate school; went to more affordable schools and worked to pay my way. But I don’t think that makes me any better than people who DID take out student loans and are struggling to pay them back. I have supported myself by working since I was 18, mostly at a large academic library. Only about 30% of the University’s funding comes from the state, the rest is revenue and grants, but I suppose that it’s still guvmint work. My job consists of making loads of information freely available to the University’s students, staff, and faculty (and anyone else who can get themselves to campus); actually, most of it is freely available to anyone who has a computer. Journals, books, photographs, posters, medieval manuscripts, maps, sound recordings, movies, oral histories, archival resources (the “evidence” for history), preserved web pages/twitter feeds — in pretty much every language the world has to offer, including Inuktitut (ᐃᓄᒃᑎᑐᑦ) and Ge’ez (ግዕዝ). Libraries and archives are A W E S O M E.

Eh, Aurini’s an asshole. Not even really mock-worthy.

Dan
Dan
9 years ago

What Day successfully demonstrates is that Myers attacks religion from emotion and not science or logic. Since you Pecunium and Amused both essentially concede that Myers does in fact attack religion from emotion and not science or logic, I can see we all agree on the actual point in question. The illegitimacy of emotional attacks, which is what you really hate, is a secondary question in this situation. On his blog Day quotes Myers himself: “We cannot, though, say a priori that it is wrong because abusing and denigrating half the population [or throwing acid on women, my note] is unconscionable and vile, because that is not a scientific foundation for the conclusion. It’s an emotional one; it’s also a rational one, given the premise that we should treat all people equitably…but that premise can’t claim scientific justification.” So even Myers himself concedes.

katz
9 years ago

I’m sure Dan is absolutely in no way, shape, or form the same person as Vox Day, Aurini, or David Marshall, right?