Categories
antifeminism antifeminst women it's science! men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny patriarchy PUA racism reactionary bullshit violence

Does Manosphere Blogger Vox Day Really Support the Murder and Mutilation of Women?

Most women, it is fair to say, don’t want to be deprived of education; they don’t want to be considered little more than baby-making machines; and they don’t want “independent” women to be maimed or murdered.

But according to the influential manosphere blogger Vox Day, women who object to any of this just don’t know what’s good for them. In one of the most repellant manosphere rants I’ve run across yet, Vox attempts to rebut PZ Myers’ critiques of evolutionary psychology with a series of bizarre and hateful assertions about women, offering his own “scientific” rationales for keeping women down. Is this all somehow satire on his part? He certainly seems sincere.

TRIGGER WARNING for all that follows; Vox explicitly defends the maiming and murder of women.

Vox starts out by arguing that depriving women of education makes solid evolutionary sense:

[E]ducating women is strongly correlated with reducing their disposition and ability to reproduce themselves. Educating them tends to make them evolutionary dead ends. … 40% of German women with college degrees are childless. Does PZ seriously wish to claim that not reproducing is intrinsically beneficial to women?

Instead of being educated, Vox goes on to argue, girls should be married off young so they can start popping out babies:

[R]aising girls with the expectation that their purpose in life is to bear children allows them to pursue marriage at the age of their peak fertility, increase the wage rates of their prospective marital partners, and live in stable, low-crime, homogenous societies that are not demographically dying. It also grants them privileged status, as they alone are able to ensure the continued survival of the society and the species alike. Women are not needed in any profession or occupation except that of child-bearer and child-rearer, and even in the case of the latter, they are only superior, they are not absolutely required.

Next, he defends the practice of throwing acid in the face of “independent” women:

[F]emale independence is strongly correlated with a whole host of social ills. Using the utilitarian metric favored by most atheists, a few acid-burned faces is a small price to pay for lasting marriages, stable families, legitimate children, low levels of debt, strong currencies, affordable housing, homogenous populations, low levels of crime, and demographic stability. If PZ has turned against utilitarianism or the concept of the collective welfare trumping the interests of the individual, I should be fascinated to hear it.

He moves on to honor killings, arguing that they too are good for women, because

female promiscuity and divorce are strongly correlated with a whole host of social ills, from low birth and marriage rates to high levels of illegitimacy.

He offers a similar rationale for female genital mutilation, before launching into this bizarre racist attack on abortion rights:

[F]ar more women are aborted than die as a result of their pregnancies going awry. The very idea that letting a few women die is worse than killing literally millions of unborn women shows that PZ not only isn’t thinking like a scientist, he’s quite clearly not thinking rationally at all. If PZ is going to be intellectually consistent here, then he should be quite willing to support the abortion of all black fetuses, since blacks disproportionately commit murder and 17x more people could be saved by aborting black fetuses than permitting the use of abortion to save the life of a mother. 466 American women die in pregnancy every year whereas 8,012 people died at the hands of black murderers in 2010.

Vox wants “girls” – presumably teenagers — to be married off young and start popping out babies. Yet in his mind female fetuses are “unborn women.”

Despite Vox Day’s repellent ideas about women – and his proud racism – he’s an influential figure in the manosphere, mentioned approvingly and regularly cited by others who present themselves as more moderate voices. It may not be a shock that the reactionary antifeminist blogger Dalrock includes Vox in his blogroll, and cites his work with approval (see here and here for examples). But, astoundingly, he’s also regularly cited approvingly by antifeminist “relationship expert” Susan Walsh of Hooking Up Smart (see here, here, and here). And she has even written at least one guest post on Vox’s “game blog” Alpha Game.

At this point I suppose I shouldn’t be shocked by any of this.  But I still am.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

351 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Rutee Katreya
9 years ago

This is going to sound terribly PI, but…is this dude a Muslim?

Oh look, the assholes who pretend ‘PC’ is a thing have made a second stupid acronym. Because the problem with their ideas is they lacked acronyms, not that htey were dumb.

Vox Day is a fucking Christian, which is why being racist* is a stupid idea.

*The very fact that we’re having this conversation shows what this is. White Christianity says shit just as horrid, we give it a pass because it is primarily practiced by white people compared to the primarily asian and brown practitioners of Islam.

Bostonian
9 years ago

So where are the popular feminist sites calling for acid attacks on men? Killing men?
Nowhere?
Where are the reasonable MRAs condemning this kind of violence?
NOWHERE.

pecunium
pecunium
9 years ago

VoxDay is a repelling (and repellant) example of humanity. I think, from reading his various writings (and watching him attempt to argue with other groups… SF fandom, for example), he actually believes what he says.

Then again, it doesn’t matter if he does, because he’s consistent about it, and if you act like a troll, you are a troll.

pecunium
pecunium
9 years ago

He is also an example of what happens when one is born into money. His ability to do what he does is based on nepotistic support.

katz
9 years ago

This is going to sound terribly PI, but the minute that dame walked into my office, I knew she was trouble.

Sharculese
9 years ago

I think he’s examining the utilitarian reasoning used by PZ Myers and taking it to its logical conclusion, at least when applied to the opposite sex, and in turn, showing just how disgusting it is.

you mean he’s making a panicky slippery slope argument? we knew that.

cloudiah
9 years ago

Oooh, thanks for that Ed Brayton link. I don’t think I can handle reading Vox Day in his native environment, but filtered through mockery and critique it is bearable. Found this choice quote:

Now, at this point, it is customary for women to immediately reject any assertion that women’s rights are wrong as the Talibanistic ranting of an embittered man who has been denied ready access to attractive women’s bodies. In the interest of dismissing this red herring, I merely note that few men fortunate enough to possess a turbo Porsche and a record contract at 23 have any reason to be bitter about the hand that life has dealt them.

He drives a red Porsche. Your argument is invalid.
Source: http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2005/08/09/the-absurdity-of-vox-day/

Note from the comments it appears that Vox Day has a habit of appearing in the comments, or sending his sycophants to appear in the comments, of blog posts that are about him. We can only hope…

Vox Day. VOX DAY. VOX DAY!!! I summon thee to a blog duel.

Tak the Hideous New Girl
Tak the Hideous New Girl
9 years ago

Vox Day is a racist, a misogynist, a bully and all around scumbag who only has any prominence because of his father. He has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

Shaenon
9 years ago

Funny, none of the commentators on Vox Day’s blog seem to have picked up on the brilliant satire of the piece. They’re pretty big fans of the old acid-throwing.

starterlifesydney
starterlifesydney
9 years ago

Next week is International Men’s Health Week

http://www.menshealthmonth.org

I wonder how many MRA blogs will mention it?

pecunium
pecunium
9 years ago

Hippie Redneck: I don’t think Vox is honestly endorsing this stuff. I think he’s examining the utilitarian reasoning used by PZ Myers and taking it to its logical conclusion, at least when applied to the opposite sex, and in turn, showing just how disgusting it is. But, of course, the posters here don’t understand the concepts of satire or metaphor because their misogyny detectors are on so high, they think that a man calling a woman in the middle of an afternoon nap constitutes assault.

I’ve been reading Vox Day for years. I think he does believe it, at least insofar as he thinks there are too many black people, and reducing their numbers (in utero natch, so it’s not genocide)

And he didn’t take to its logical conclusion, he attempted to make a reductio ad absurdem. Even that failed because he attempted, absent real support, to limit the reductio to blacks. According to the FBI, in 2009 there were 5,286 whites who committed murder, there were 5,890 blacks, and an unknown 4,339.

So, from an abstract sense the raw numbers are equal. The interesting question is the, “unknown”, which is almost 28 percent of the total.

But he’s not, from previous writings, all that disgusted with the idea of removing people of color from the equation; and this sort of nonsense is perfectly in keeping with other aims he’s expressed. It’s just a new means.

From a Utilitarian POV, the only way you can discount the happiness of the women is if they have no agency. Otherwise you have to ask, “would it increase their happiness to be reduced to nothing more than walking incubators”, which is the positin VD is arguing.

It’s not satire, even if he intended it to be, because on the logical underpinnings it claims to be using, it fails. That makes it a poor foil to the points it pretends to be refuting.

It only works if one accepts that the premises offered are actually what VD is trying to say.

So I do, and they are repulsive.

pecunium
pecunium
9 years ago

Seraph: To be clear, what he means here is that there aren’t enough white babies, right?

From the evidence of his writings (and his choice of fora), you have hit the nail on the button.

pecunium
pecunium
9 years ago

Reggy: This is going to sound terribly PI, but…is this dude a Muslim?

Not PI, rude, and foolish. Sort of like the Elam is mentaly unstable comment in the other thread.

It’s not as if there aren’t lots of asshole Christians who say shit like this, or Jews, or Hindus, or pick your religion. There are even atheists who say shit like this.

He’s a human being. Lots of human beings have loathesome ideas. Sort of like othering Vox Day by asking if he’s muslim.

pecunium
pecunium
9 years ago

starterlifesydney: I wonder how many have noticed the Men’s Centre at Simon Fraser University.

Because men are so oppressed.

Leni
Leni
9 years ago

@ cloudiah- I was going to mention the red Porche! And the jocko-hawk. And that he thinks being a Mensa member somehow immunizes him from criticism.

But I couldn’t remember for sure if it was a Porche and I was too lazy to check. But yeah, he’s maybe got some issues with narcissism. Which doesn’t make him wrong per se, just more evidence that he’s a colossal asshole.

abeille
9 years ago

@speedbudget
Oh! What scent? I have Jasmine here, at the moment.
Thought I had some vanillas around someplace…

cloudiah
9 years ago

His “record contract” was apparently for the band Psykosonik; you can listen to snippets here: http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/window/media/page/0,,231723-3496566,00.html

cloudiah
9 years ago

Sorry, commas broke the link but if you copy and paste it should work (cloudiah says lazily).

valerienorth
valerienorth
9 years ago

The only demographic this fool is worried about is his own penis.

Dani Alexis
Dani Alexis
9 years ago

And that he thinks being a Mensa member somehow immunizes him from criticism.

Clearly he’s never read the “Letters” column in even one issue of Mensa’s member magazine, then. Never have I seen the members of a single, voluntarily-joined organization hurl such vitriol at one another in print. Not even on Reddit.

(Not that actually reading the damn thing is a membership requirement or anything, but if you’re paying your dues, they are sending you one every month. And if you’re not paying your dues, you’re not technically a member of Mensa, even if you qualified once upon a time.)

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
9 years ago

I think he need to do a little more work on that bit about how enslaving half the population somehow sorts out for the “greater good”.
Another Inego Montoya moment brought to you by Vox I’ve got a million of ’em Day.

creativewritingstudent
creativewritingstudent
9 years ago

Maybe I’m being a bit stupid, reasoning in the face of unreason, but if women were only meant to birth and raise children, and care for men, why do women have higher intellectual functions such as creativity, reasoning skills, ability to learn and analyse information etc.? Surely, if women were merely incubators and nannies, women would only have the brainpower to survive and care – seeing as intellect would distract from child- and husband-care.
If one socialises in groups that even slightly value interesting conversation and lively discussion (which is most people, even the most unintellectual of media such as soap operas and ‘look-at-the-freaks’ reality TV can spark lively discussion) you’re going to be socialising with women with higher brain function.
This means that women are supposed to contribute to human social, technological, and cultural development, just as men do.

(I do think that if, in the past, oppressed groups were offered the same access to education and the same opportunities as privileged groups, we’d be living in a very different world. Probably one that looks like those shiny sci-fi futures. More minds means more potential!)

Leeloo Dallas Multipass

If PZ has turned against utilitarianism or the concept of the collective welfare trumping the interests of the individual, I should be fascinated to hear it.

Because having to pay taxes on your immense wealth (I assume that’s what this is referring to? Correct me if I’m wrong) is just like having acid thrown in your face.

Also, as the fifth element, I think it’s only fitting that I point out that Vox Day looks suspiciously like

JEAN-BAPTISTE.

EMMANUEL.

ZORG.

LBT
LBT
9 years ago

RE: Creativewritingstudent

You realize by asking, you’re just going to get DKM telling you women DON’T have higher brain functions, that they only fake it because of FEMINISM and MANGINAS.

Little Mousling (@LittleMousling)

Honestly my first, horrified, thought, was “who the fuck is keeping statistics on numbers of people killed by murderers BY RACE OF THE MURDERER?” Like. To whom is that a vital project?

pecunium
pecunium
9 years ago

Little Mousling: The thing which interests me is how narrowly the stats are subdivided… black, white, unknown.

But the question of who is incarcerated leads to keeping track of for what they were convicted.

AngryandSad
AngryandSad
9 years ago

Considering that correlation seems to be the most important thing in this guy’s rhetoric arsenal, the fact that the countries that practice FGM, acid throwing and honour killings are some of the most financially hopeless on the planet makes it a pretty poor argument in their favour. This is ignoring the absolute repugnance of raising it at all, and only judging it on its “merits”.

Little Mousling (@LittleMousling)

Yeah, when I took a minute I got there. But ugh, seeing it used like that makes it appear so utterly fucked up.

creativewritingstudent
creativewritingstudent
9 years ago

@LBT

That’s ok, I’ll tell him that to be able to fake anything, one needs higher brain functions. Like creativity (what to fake), learning (how to fake), reason (who to fake on)…

Beadknitter
9 years ago

That is one sick disgusting human.

darksidecat
9 years ago

@hippie, women and people of color are full persons who are not less valuable (you don’t seem to be getting that) and the substantial majority of the population.

The utility monsters issue doesn’t even fucking come up at all here, because it’s the (totally fictional) needs of a small privileged minority being seen as overwhelming the needs of the majority.

That’s even setting aside discussions of rule utilitarianism, and VD’s total biology fail.

GingerSnaps
GingerSnaps
9 years ago

I’m mensa smart, so I know that the ability to learn information does not mean that the information I’m learning is necessarily true. If my mensa IQ is only reading the inquirer and AVfM, for example….

ABNOY
ABNOY
9 years ago

“Honestly my first, horrified, thought, was “who the fuck is keeping statistics on numbers of people killed by murderers BY RACE OF THE MURDERER?” Like. To whom is that a vital project?”

White Conservatives.

Shiraz
Shiraz
9 years ago

Why don’t any of these guys know that women don’t go through menopause at age 26? Do they know any women at all?
What a hateful, ignorant human being. It’s so sad…….for us, not him. I keep thinking of The Handmaid’s Tale. Ahhh, I need a drink.

BlackBloc
BlackBloc
9 years ago

@ABNOY: White supremacists, actually, though I guess that’s just a synonym of white conservative.

Zanana
Zanana
9 years ago

The idealogical gap is way too wide here. It would be impossible to clarify my perspective to someone who honestly thought that “successful reproduction” and “personal happiness” counted equally as “things that benefit women”.

To be super duper clear, I think “personal happiness” is the right metric for “things that benefit women”.

Bee
Bee
9 years ago

WTF. I wonder how MRAs will rationalize this as not being pure misogyny. They’ll probably just deflect like they always do.

I got ten bucks on “Oh yeah??? Well, what about Valerie Solanas!”

David Marshall
9 years ago

You and PZ are making fools of yourselves. Vox is not always my cup of tea, but what he’s doing here is mocking PZ’s position, therefore:

“Who said anything about supporting the proposition. PZ was asking for an answer to a question, not a personal opinion. In case it has previously escaped you, I’m not a secular atheist utilitarian.”

You both just missed his point.

If you prefer a more straightforward rebuttal of PZ’s errors on this, see my “How Jesus Liberated Women” series.

ragefromthebasement
9 years ago

“Why don’t any of these guys know that women don’t go through menopause at age 26?”

This pisses me off. WTF Price was talking about this in his post last week. Theoretically, a woman can become infertile in her teens if she has a medical condition like PCOS. But other than that a woman can remain fertile until her early forties. It depends on the individual woman. It’s fine for women to be aware that they can’t postpone motherhood indefinitely, and to be fair I think other women are doing a good job of getting the message out, but for Price to be scaremongering that your ovaries are all done at 25 is ridiculous. And of course, there are women who don’t want kids, and they shouldn’t be shamed for it.

ozymandias42
ozymandias42
9 years ago

My girlfriend has actually been told by her doctor to have children by the time she’s 25 if she wants biological and (at least temporarily) abled kids, because the risk of Down’s Syndrome is very high in her family..

….Somehow I don’t think this applies to everyone though.

Noadi
Noadi
9 years ago

@David Marshall: Vox Day has in completely serious posts advocated revoking the right to vote for women among other incredibly misogynistic, racist, and homophobic things. Exactly what in this latest post is clearly satire in view of his previous stated beliefs?

Rutee Katreya
9 years ago

You and PZ are making fools of yourselves.

You and Vox’s failure to understand utilitarianism is not my, David’s, or PZ’s problem. Again: Women are people, our happiness fucking matters too.

Brian Connors
9 years ago

You can be sure that when an MRA plays the Valerie Solanas card, they’ve absolutely run out of options. I can’t imagine any sane, decent human being supporting her, yet the MRAs want her to be mainstream feminism.

VoIP
VoIP
9 years ago

You and PZ are making fools of yourselves. Vox is not always my cup of tea, but what he’s doing here is mocking PZ’s position…

Can you quote a passage where he does that?

VoIP
VoIP
9 years ago

Also, inb4 “You’re just cherry-picking!”

Rutee Katreya
9 years ago

You can be sure that when an MRA plays the Valerie Solanas card, they’ve absolutely run out of options. I can’t imagine any sane, decent human being supporting her, yet the MRAs want her to be mainstream feminism.

Define “support her”. Because I will go to bat for her unpublished manuscript that the world calls “The SCUM Manifesto” (It was named by her publisher, and is a backronym) being satire, it matches her writing style in a lot of previous satires. If you mean “support shooting people because of an allegation of intellectual property theft”, then no, I will not support her.

Leni
Leni
9 years ago

If you prefer a more straightforward rebuttal of PZ’s errors on this, see my “How Jesus Liberated Women” series.

Straight forward?

Really?

Your’re making fake arguments for Jesus and you call them “straight forward”?

Here’s the thing: Straight forward means simple. Facile. Obvious. Immediately provable..

Your Jesus bs? It’s is none of that.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
9 years ago

Vox Day’s thin veneer of a reductio ad absurdem does little to hide that he actually believes this shit. His sick and twisted view of humanity is well established, something no amount of “but let’s NOT throw acid into women’s faces because Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life” will make up for. Protip: he is, in fact, telling us what he actually thinks in his faux-utilitarian answers.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
9 years ago

And no, the above should not be read as saying he endorses what he does not. (If confused, try for nuance).

Savage Like Me
9 years ago

@ Rage

Not even just early forties. My mom had my sibling and myself in her early/mid forties, completely naturally, and didn’t start to hit menopause until after 50. Admittedly, she might just be the unicorn of female fertility, but just goes to show how much time women can have to decide if they want kids.