Well, this is … interesting. So JohnTheOther has plopped out another rambling diatribe about evil feminists. This time he accuses them not only of “attacking male sexuality” but also (if I’m reading him correctly) of being a bunch of evil homophobes jealous that some men don’t want to have sex with women. You read this and tell me what you think he’s implying here:
Male sexuality is of course both demonized and treated as a form of predation, but also strictly limited to a narrow set of acceptable expressions. Outside of sexual identities which place men in positions to benefit women as sexual gate-keepers, masculine sexuality is generally condemned.
JTO would love to compare these alleged gay-man-hating feminists to the proudly gay-male-affirming Men’s Rights Movement. There’s just one problem: As even JTO has to force himself to admit, there are more than a few homophobic dudes lurking around in the Men’s Rights movement. As JTO acknowledges:
[T]here is a thread of opinion with a growing currency among some MRAs which rejects the legitimacy of men whose self identity and sexuality is gay or bisexual, or I suppose, transsexual.
JTO doesn’t like this, and says so:
[There] are men (and women) whose sexuality, either chosen or not, doesn’t conform to an acceptable standard – and some within the MRM would demonize them. Gentlemen and ladies – this is nothing short of stupid.
At what point does who an individual finds sexually attractive diminish their value as a human? How is it that a man whose preference doesn’t include vagina becomes less of a man? Conversely, are we going to pretend the sexual preferences of our female colleagues matter in the context of partnership in the fight for the human rights of men and boys?
So: JohnTheOther has explicitly decided to speak up in favor of “the gay agenda.” (Yes, that’s the phrase he used.) And he’s even included lesbians in the deal – something allegedly pro-gay MRAs often have trouble doing – even though he sort of suggests at the end that he’s only willing to accept lesbians who are also MRAs.
But, hey, baby steps, right?
Well, John, if you really want to toss the homophobes out of the Men’s Rights movement, you’re going to have to start with A Voice for Men itself.
If you go to read JTO’s whole post over on AVFM, you’ll see a couple of “featured videos” in the sidebar from longtime AVFM friend and contributor Bernard Chapin. One of them bears the intriguing title “Feminist Professor Gloats Over Lesbian Chic.” The description, presumably written by AVFM head honcho Paul Elam, reads:
Bernard’s on a roll here with this one. And you will be rolling to [sic] as he delivers another thorough fisking, Inferno style.
Watch the video, here or there, or as much of it as you can stand. As you’ll see, it’s basically eight minutes of gratingly “humorous” lesbian bashing from good old Bern – whose preferred term for “lesbian,” incidentally, is “lesbobo.” (Evidently adding an extra “bo” to the old slur “lesbo” is hilarious.)
Chapin has produced more than 1200 videos; this is one of the two that AVFM has chosen to feature.
You want to stand up to homophobia, John? Take down that video. Apologize for hosting it. Apologize for featuring it. Demand that Chapin apologize for it — or kick him to the curb.
Meanwhile, AVFM is helping the guy behind the website Artistry Against Misandry publicize and raise money for an upcoming event; Elam himself says he’s already sent along a hundred dollars. Here are some examples of the sort of “artistry” that’s featured on the site:
This second graphic is not only homophobic but confused: Chaz Bono is a trans man, not a lesbian.
Speaking of transphobia, AAM also hosts several videos by “Creativebrother,” one of which is this not-hot transphobic mess:
John, I suggest you ask your boss at AVFM to get his money back from Artistry Against Misandry. Because, here’s the thing: if you actively support hate like this, people might just get the impression you’re a hate site.
EDITED TO ADD: In the comments, Elam proudly announces his own support of the “gay agenda” as well. Well, with 0.1% of it.
I don’t like most gay activists very much, and I oppose 99.9% of what passes as gay activism, but I don’t think it is very smart to forget that part of the reason they were led astray is because most “normal” men never gave them the dignity of being regarded as a man.
Forget gay marriage, forget bullying, forget AIDS: apparently the only real issue for gay men is evil feminist ladies calling them “fags” for not wanting to have sex with them.
Elam also has a most interesting explanation of homophobia, at least against gay men:
Gay men are bashed, when all is said and done, because they are not of utilitarian value to women, and because they are perceived as not having enough strength to be of utilitarian value to the elites.
Yeah, that’s probably it.
What about homophobia against lesbians? That’s easy: “lesbobos” are just naturally ugly and hilarious.
@Cliff: I’d say the second (i.e. embodying some very specific cultural beliefs)! (Although a colleague told me he’d cheer his daughter on for reading it no matter how bad because abstinence–she was 13).
And people keep talking about teen readers–that book (like the current 50 Shades of Grey) attracted a huge out of adolescence demographic of women readers–there was a discussion in one fandom community I follow about how many tropes from TWILIGHT could be found in fanfiction, and it seemed dead one (not specifics–i.e.sparkly vampires–but the stalker as ideal lover).
And at the time (I’ve ony read the first one, and only because I assigned it in a vampire creative writing class as one of a range of examples of vampire fiction–we also read LeFanu, Coleridge, Pratchett, Butler, and some others) I thought that a lot of the tropes were very similar to the “bodice ripper” romance novels (I don’t know if that’s still a popular sub-genre) that I remember reading before giving up in disgust decades ago–but it was packaged and sold to a teen audience.
So….I’m conflicted.
I also still believe firmly that a huge mount of the critical and cultural scorn poured on it involved a component of thinking that anything teenage girls like must be shit and bad and awful.
NWO —
“By the way. On the previous thread…” — as soon as I find that, I’ll reply to it there, you could link me again to speed that up.
I can’t find it, unless it’s in mod still, I’m going to need a link to the comment in question.
@Argenti Aertheri
Last post before I go. I’m interested in what number you come up with for sexual assault stats for the official links I gave. Above you see mine. What number do you come up with?
Also wow. Isn’t that the first time NWOslave has ever mentioned having any family? Or loving anyone?
wait, didn’t owlslave once claim a link between homosexuality and being a serial killer?
@Sharculese: Yup.
@Argenti Aertheri
Damn it, now ya made me post one more time. It’s the previous thread last post on the next to the last page. I didn’t stick the flounce.
According to the Book O’ Learnin’, Owly thinks that public schools teach homosexuality, and that homosexuality wouldn’t exist without the government.
What do you think, Owly? Is homosexuality a social ill? Does the government contribute to homosexuality? If so, how?
In addition to serial killers, I believe NWO’s said gay people are also all child molesters, and all prison rapists.
Why can’t we respeeeect his personal opinion?
Now that I’m thinking back, I think that’s the *real* reason NWOslave is homophobic. Apparently, being gay friendly isn’t supporting gay people in having an equal right to make out, it’s ACTUALLY supporting incest and serial murder!
This is fun!
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3phhr1/
Cliff — I respect his opinion that male on male (or female on female) prison rape is an act of homosexual “sex”. The rest are not really opinions (neither is that one really, but I guess we could debate whether homosexual rape is a homosexual act or just about power)
And I can think of one gay serial killer off the top of my head btw — Dahmer — versus more than a few straight ones, the first to come to mind by name and not horrible acts would be the green river killer, google tells me his name is Gary Ridgway.
Oh, and pedophilia.
So yeah, this is how Owly sees the world. We ALL know this is what being gay REALLY means, we just won’t admit it, which is why he’s so scared. Those two people making out at Micky D’s could turn wildly violent at ANY MOMENT!
Hey, Slavey, guess what? I also find anything sexual involving piss or shit gross. You know how I deal with that? By not doing sexual things that involve piss or shit. You’d be amazed how easy it is to avoid sexual stuff you don’t like! If you find gay sex acts gross, you could just…not do those things. That wouldn’t make you a homophobe. But when you devote a great deal of time to ranting and raving about how awful those things are, and claim that the people who do them are more likely to be serial killers? Then you have a problem, and the name for that specific problem is “homophobia”.
“Those two people making out at Micky D’s could turn wildly violent at ANY MOMENT!” — but only if they appear to be the same gender (“appear to be” as NWO seems to fail miserably at transphobia as well)
I didn’t mean to post the same one twice. Fuck!
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3phi2p/
They are having a fascinating discussion of the relevance of gayness to the MRM on the OP. And by fascinating, I mean replete with wild misconceptions. I love this comment of Stu’s:
So much wrong.
And that never happens, except on Earth. 🙁 …And on their own goddamn site!
What? Is it… well, I know every day is “make up shit about feminists day,” but this is particularly far from anything I’ve heard anywhere.
Also apparently feminists are constantly urging men to be “real men.”
This is so random and unconnected, it doesn’t even feel like a stereotype. It’s like if someone told me “feminists eat too much broccoli! nothing but broccoli three meals a day!” I don’t feel misunderstood so much as… guhhh?
Wow, Stu, did it hurt to twist your logic like that?
“because men are not disadvantaged in any way by the existence of gay men.” — has clearly never heard of “gay panic”
“If being gay is not discouraged, more men will be gay, and if they make things bad enough for straight men, maybe most men will be gay.” — umm, whut? So feminists hate gay men for not giving them babies (because all feminists are women who want babies!) but feminists also hate straight men (just because? reason not given?) — I suddenly understand how they manage to think feminists hate all men…what about the bi/pan-sexual ones though? Best or worst of both worlds? Can we get a vote from the grand feminist of feminism?
man i know it’s a typo, but i so badly want him to actually have meant apposed and not opposed
“Therefore they believe that being gay is an option for straight men.”
RooshV is a big believer in the “American women are so horrible men would rather be gay than deal with them” bullshit. Makes me want to punch something.
@Fembot:
There’s a really good chance, because women aren’t always conditioned to be violent the same way. I just don’t want to ignore the homophobia that gets levelled at the gay community from women, because it’s damaging too. The way gay men are used as props in media directed at women comes to mind. It’s okay to be gay, as long as your entire life revolves around mine! :-/
Don’t worry about my name XD my phone used to autocorrect it as “viscera” all the time.
@KathleenB
My ex used to do a lot of things that might have seemed to be not okay to my friends and relatives and that last doubting vioce in my head but actually were okay because of our Special Love!!1! Turns out, not actually the case. Those things are never okay, and your love for another person should make you less inclined to do shitty things to them, not more inclined. Not that you should ever do those things in the first place.
2003
That’s when Lawrence v Texas came down. So let’s not allow legal to be conflated with ethical, or for people to act as if queerness being legal can be taken taken for granted. It was illegal in 14 states to be queer until 2003.
On a related note, I’m just tired of NWO at this point, he’s such a nasty horrid bigot. He no longer amuses me with his absurdity. Can we perma-ban him?
I think it’s interesting that Slavey (and not just him, I’ve seen this elsewhere) can only explain why homosexuality is disgusting by comparing it to random other things that are disgusting.
Because you could use this argument strategy for anything.
“You ride a skateboard? That’s like standing in a pile of cow intestines!”
“You eat noodles? That’s like eating rotten rat feces!”
“You hug your friends? That’s like having sex with your brother, a dog, and the dog’s brother!”